Conn/Selmer 500ATB alto trombone and alto tips

[vladkobuxton]

Any thoughts? I think its a budget/student range. I started playing alto due to having arthritis in my elbow and wanting a smaller horn. I am loving playing alto but I currently have a JP136 and I know its garbage.

I notice that its much harder to find good old alto instruments. With the tenor there are so many top quality older instruments you can pick up for relatively cheap. I love my 1956 olds recording, I got it for £400!

So i'm caught between saving up for a new top alto, doing some research, or getting something a little bit better than what I have. I've also considered stripping the lacquer off the 136 for a darker sound. I definitely miss the depth of tone, but I also see that it's still something to work on and cultivate with the way I play the instrument.

But i'm intrigued to hear about makes/models that have surprised you, or ones with great sound, or tenor like depth of tone.

open ended post, but fire away!

[Finetales]

The 500ATB is the same Jinbao Slokar clone as the JP136, you would be changing nothing.

The next tier up is the JP Rath 236, but that's a lot more expensive.

Also, stripping the lacquer off your JP136 won't give it a darker sound. It may slightly improve the response but that's about it.

[vladkobuxton]

thanks! Do you think thr 236 is enough of a jump in quality to be worth it or better to save up a few grand and get a high quality alto? Its such a shame that good used ones for a grand don't seem to come up in the UK. What would I be looking for in an alto that would give me a deep sound? I mostly play funk/reggae/hip hop and play by ear/never in an orchestra though sometimes in a street band

[MrHCinDE]

Might be worth a look?

https://www.dawkes.co.uk/bs-alto-tromb ... bone/27633

[Matt K]

In general, the instrument being in Eb is going make it sound bright compared to a tenor. You won’t be be able to change that. A good alto will feel better, but it’ll still be bright! Even the Wessex and other 525/547 altos are quite bright in comparison to a tenor. That said, you might want to keep your eyes open for the larger Wessex model. They no longer sell them, which is a huge shame because they’re actually really good instruments.

[vladkobuxton]

Might be worth a look?

https://www.dawkes.co.uk/bs-alto-tromb ... bone/27633

interesting! what is the quality like of b&s altos?

[vladkobuxton]

The 500ATB is the same Jinbao Slokar clone as the JP136, you would be changing nothing.

The next tier up is the JP Rath 236, but that's a lot more expensive.

Also, stripping the lacquer off your JP136 won't give it a darker sound. It may slightly improve the response but that's about it.

thanks! Do you think the 236 is enough of a jump in quality to be worth it or better to save up a few grand and get a high quality alto? Its such a shame that good used ones for a grand don't seem to come up in the UK. What would I be looking for in an alto that would give me a funky sound? I mostly play funk/reggae/hip hop and play by ear/never in an orchestra though sometimes in a street band.

Do you have any experience of the B&S alto listed below?

[harrisonreed]

The alto is a very unusual choice for funky reggae

[vladkobuxton]

I know,! the difference for me is its much easier on my body long term to play the smaller instrument. I have an inflammatory condition and playing with a full tenor is much more of a strain on my elbow, which is inflamed. I bought the jp136 just to I have a try, and loved playing the alto, because it was easier on my body, but also its lighter, more portable, and I enjoyed being able to move faster between the positions. I miss the volume a bit with a tenor and also the way the lows hit with such power, and I miss playing my olds recording because the sound was so rich. It was the first time I really noticed the instrument making a difference to sound. With the alto ive started playing with a 5g mouthpiece with a mouthpiece booster, and they definitely helped to thicken the sound. I'm aware that a big percentage of the work is practicing and working on the sound i want, but im also aware that the jp136 is quite bad...like the tuning, the sound is extra thin. I kind of understand that for my musical interests the alto is not the most natural fit, but i'd like to find ways to make it work, at least till my elbow heals up. So far performing in the local jams, no one has particularly noticed im playing a much smaller horn. BTW this forum is awesome, thanks so much to all of you for being so responsive!

[Matt K]

Pretty much all of the horns of that design (of which there are many) are basically forced into that position and soldered in place very aggressively. I had a tech dissassemble one once and it practically popped off his workbench when even a minimal amount of heat was applied to it. Such tension really can wreck the responsiveness of a horn, and you might be feeling that to some degree. The stock leadpipe on them is also awful, which is why the leadpipe that used to be offered by Stauffer brass was so popular.

"Worth it" is going to be up to you, of course, but in my estimation, alto is much more important to "get right" because it can be SO quirky given how small they are. There just isn't a lot of room to get the tapers right and the result can be very unsatisfying.

So my prior advice still stands, the Wessex 525/547 is a pretty good instrument if you can get one. But if you think it is within budget to save up for something better.... I really do personally think it's worth it, especially for alto. That said, the Shires "Q" series actually play really well. I was kind of floored by how well the one I played was. They seem to be around ~$2k. If you can reasonably afford that, I would suggest at least going for something of that quality.

Sometimes you can get a Conn 36H pre-owned for a similar price too. They have a Bb attachment which is really great. I had one that was reversed (for Conrad Herwig, no less!), though I ultimately ended up not liking it being in Bb most of the time goign through all that extra tubing. I still kind of kick myself for selling it.

Regardless, the other thing that can help is getting a mouthpiece with a shank specific for the alto. Don't get one until you get the alto you want though. The altos leadpipe is very variable, enough that Doug Elliott makes several alto shanks depending on the taper you have in the leadpipe.

[MrHCinDE]

Might be worth a look?

https://www.dawkes.co.uk/bs-alto-tromb ... bone/27633

interesting! what is the quality like of b&s altos?

The description on that listing page matches my experience of B&S trombones in general. The tenors I‘ve tried were all very solid instruments. Perhaps that is even being too conservative, sone were extremely fine instruments and quite a bit different to Conn/Bach equivalents.

I‘d kinda liken them to Yamaha with a German flavour.

There‘s a 14 day trial period and no import tax etc. to worry about, even if you can‘t go to the shop I would say it is a low risk purchase!

You may or may not like the sound but the best way to find out is to actually try it.

[MrHCinDE]

I haven‘t specifically tried the alto though, maybe someone else can chip in?

[Bach5G]

The alto is a very unusual choice for funky reggae

Tell Mike Lake I suppose.

I briefly owned one of those JinBao clones and now have a 236. I’ve played the 236 in my community orchestra. The previous owner did some funky work with it. I think it’s a decent instrument.

[vladkobuxton]

Loving this thread and all of your availability, its much appreciated and i'm learning a lot. Thanks!

[vladkobuxton]

Pretty much all of the horns of that design (of which there are many) are basically forced into that position and soldered in place very aggressively. I had a tech dissassemble one once and it practically popped off his workbench when even a minimal amount of heat was applied to it. Such tension really can wreck the responsiveness of a horn, and you might be feeling that to some degree. The stock leadpipe on them is also awful, which is why the leadpipe that used to be offered by Stauffer brass was so popular.

"Worth it" is going to be up to you, of course, but in my estimation, alto is much more important to "get right" because it can be SO quirky given how small they are. There just isn't a lot of room to get the tapers right and the result can be very unsatisfying.

So my prior advice still stands, the Wessex 525/547 is a pretty good instrument if you can get one. But if you think it is within budget to save up for something better.... I really do personally think it's worth it, especially for alto. That said, the Shires "Q" series actually play really well. I was kind of floored by how well the one I played was. They seem to be around ~$2k. If you can reasonably afford that, I would suggest at least going for something of that quality.

Sometimes you can get a Conn 36H pre-owned for a similar price too. They have a Bb attachment which is really great. I had one that was reversed (for Conrad Herwig, no less!), though I ultimately ended up not liking it being in Bb most of the time going through all that extra tubing. I still kind of kick myself for selling it.

Regardless, the other thing that can help is getting a mouthpiece with a shank specific for the alto. Don't get one until you get the alto you want though. The altos leadpipe is very variable, enough that Doug Elliott makes several alto shanks depending on the taper you have in the leadpipe.

Thanks so much for your in depth response, i really appreciate it. Its interesting to get the mechanics of why the 136 is a bad horn, and validating for my intuition/experience of playing it! That said, ive enjoyed it and last night went out with it again and played some funk/neo soul at a jam night with other musicians and horns.

Super interesting to hear about this replacement leadpipe. If i keep it as a travel/burner bone maybe I can look into that, but I feel clear that I will get another, just a matter or which and when.

Really good to hear about the wessex horns, though they seem hard to find and I didn't see any for sale in the UK. I'm intrigued by the trigger on the Conn 36H alto, does it effectively give back all those low tenor notes? I guess it effectively becomes a tenor but with higher overtones and options to switch for convenience between bb and eb positions? Does it add a lot of extra weight to the horn? I imagine that the trigger would take me a while to learn.

And super fascinating with the alto mouthpieces. have made a note of Doug Ellliott

[vladkobuxton]

one thing that has probably made a big difference in my openness to playing the alto is that I can't read music and completely play by ear. I think when you don't really know the notes, a new set of notes isn't quite as overwhelming. The bliss of ignorance!

[vladkobuxton]

interesting! what is the quality like of b&s altos?

The description on that listing page matches my experience of B&S trombones in general. The tenors I‘ve tried were all very solid instruments. Perhaps that is even being too conservative, sone were extremely fine instruments and quite a bit different to Conn/Bach equivalents.

I‘d kinda liken them to Yamaha with a German flavour.

There‘s a 14 day trial period and no import tax etc. to worry about, even if you can‘t go to the shop I would say it is a low risk purchase!

You may or may not like the sound but the best way to find out is to actually try it.

Thanks, super good to hear. I am interested to find out which model that is and when it was made. I've contacted B&S and hopefully hear back from them tomorrow. People talks about the german models. Is it there a german sound, or is it more to do with the feel and mechanism/function of the bone?

I've found another b&s trombone is for sale in my local shop in Bristol. Its a B&S challenger 3049. For the same price as the one at dawkes. I'll wait to hear back about the serial number, but my plan is to go to the shop on Saturday and try it out. They also have both conns (34H and 36H) and a bach 39. So if they'll let me try them all i can get a feel for what they're like and see how they all compare.

Has anyone had any experience with the B&S cballenger 3049?

[BGuttman]

I have the Conn 36H. I really like it, except for the trigger winding up in a rather odd place on my face.

The attachment works just like an F-attachment on a tenor. You normally get all the tenor notes except for E below the bass staff (E2). The design of the attachment allows for an A-pull that will give you that E if you want to spend the time to learn how to use it, but playing mostly 1st trombone parts on the thing I never had to play a low E.

[Nomsis]

I have a b&s alto and I think its good, but I have no comparison because I never played another one. On the german used market b&s altos are regularly available (a few times a year). They cost usually between 500 and 1000€, I got mine for 650€. Mostly they are labeled "modell 3049" but mine does not say this. I have no clue what this means, I suspect mine is a little bit older but otherwise the same. Mines says "Made in Germany" so I think its not older than 1990. I have never seen a silver one and its a pity mine is not silver because I like silver

[Nomsis]

Here is a link to such an offering: https://www.kleinanzeigen.de/s-anzeige/ ... 73-74-3163

I can play it with a bigger mouthpiece and then it sounds more like a tenor but I think the best match is with a smaller mouthpiece. I use the joseph klier exclusive 9G which is a very shallow mouthpiece and it gives a very good alto sound in my opinion.

[StephenK]

The 500ATB is the same Jinbao Slokar clone as the JP136, you would be changing nothing.

The next tier up is the JP Rath 236, but that's a lot more expensive.

Also, stripping the lacquer off your JP136 won't give it a darker sound. It may slightly improve the response but that's about it.

I have the impression that a JP236 is cheaper in the UK than the US. Personally, I have one, an don't get on with it as well as I would like. Have been tempted to try the B&S at Dawkes. Their store is being expanded and opening up next week.

[Chronos91]

Finetales already mentioned that the 500ATB is the same Slokar clone. I just wanted to mention that I don't like mine either (not that it matters, but mine is an Elkhart Conn Selmer branded one). What issues do you have with yours? Tuning is quite big one for me. Even partials that should be good have bizarre tendencies, and are positions seem to change drastically between them. I'm also not convinced that I have a real 7th position. That said, I've seen a lot of comments suggesting altos can be extremely mouthpiece sensitive, and I haven't played another alto to compare it to.

[BGuttman]

My 36H came with a Conn 7C mouthpiece that was the ONLY one that put all the partials in tune. Not even a Bach 7C did that. Too bad I'm not comfortable with that size, so I learned to adjust to my Bach 4C. Never tried any of Doug's stuff, though.

[harrisonreed]

Finetales already mentioned that the 500ATB is the same Slokar clone. I just wanted to mention that I don't like mine either (not that it matters, but mine is an Elkhart Conn Selmer branded one). What issues do you have with yours? Tuning is quite big one for me. Even partials that should be good have bizarre tendencies, and are positions seem to change drastically between them. I'm also not convinced that I have a real 7th position. That said, I've seen a lot of comments suggesting altos can be extremely mouthpiece sensitive, and I haven't played another alto to compare it to.

Yeah, it comes down to a couple things with the mouthpiece -- the balance of the backbore and throat will affect the intonation. Using a tenor piece on alto won't have that balance, so you will find things like compressed or stretched octaves. Also, the shank dimension will affect intonation. For the 36H, 34H (and the Shires altos, in my experience) the thing tends to play better with a mouthpiece that goes in further.

So the Conn 7C was designed with that in mind. So were all the small shank Lindberg pieces. And Doug Elliott's Alto-S shanks are also designed with this in mind.

In general, you can keep trying all kinds of tenor mouthpieces and you probably won't find a solution to bizarre tuning that you are finding on alto. Then you can try a real alto mouthpiece, and suddenly it will make sense. It's similar to why people will play a different length mouthpiece on Eb trumpet or C trumpet. It's a different instrument.

That said, the Jinbao stuff is not going to be as in tune as a pro horn.

[vladkobuxton]

Ok, so heres an update.

Thanks for everyones shares, it was helpful in informing me.

I went to trevor jones brass and woodwind today in Bristol and had a go on a new (but now discontinued) B&S challenger 3049, a conn 34H, and a conn 36H. I also brought my jp 136 as comparison.

I used my own mouthpiece (a small bore 5g with a mouthpiece booster) and this could have affected the overall sound. On none of the horns did it feel a perfect fit, especially on the b&s, it didn't feel like the mouthpiece was going in far at at all.

First off I played the conn 34h and liked it, it felt pretty familiar, just a bit more quality in the sound. It was interesting going back and forth between that and my 136 and realising it wasn't a crazy difference in terms of the tone I was producing, though it did feel that there was more solidity to the sound, and the tuning was more consistent. It felt like an upgrade for sure and I liked the resonance, it felt like it had the potential to be louder. It felt like playing a tenor and there seemed to be lower undertones going on when I played. The bell was kind of curved forwards rather than out, if that makes sense, and it felt that this added to the depth of sound.

I went to the shop with a mind to play the B&S and buy it if it felt like an obvious good fit. The bone was really light and it had pretty colouring. It felt a bit smaller than the others and I think the bell may have been smaller, and the bore thinner. The bell opened out widely in comparison to the 34h, and it felt like the highs seemed more present. I felt that the sound was a little bit thin and it felt harder to play, with less volume. My small bore mouthpieces didn't seem to go in deep at all, far less than the 34h. I really wanted to like it, and I think it's a good horn, I just felt that it wasn't a natural fit for how I like to play. The lightness was lovely and it was nice to hold. I can't help but think the mouthpiece may have meant that I didn't give it a fair try.

The conn 36H was great and sounded much like the 34H, but I was distracted by the trigger which was a new thing for me, and I kind of discounted it, because it felt clear from playing it that it would be a whole new thing to learn and it added a lot of weight to the horn, which was why I wasn't playing tenor so much in the first place.

So I felt clear that I liked the 34H, and I wanted to like the B&S, but it didn't seem the right one. It might be that the b&s was more vulnerable to the wrong mouthpiece. It could be also be that having played the JP136 (which seems like a cheap low quality replica of the conn 34H) and more similar in tone, the conn simply felt more familiar and easier to get a bigger, more resonant sound.

I would have bought the B&S for £850 then and there but I wasn't quite ready to throw the £2k in for the 34H So i'm back to square one a bit but with a bit more information.

Does what i'm saying make sense based on the features of each trombone? I have to say that i'm not a super refined player, so I might not have picked up a lot of subtleties. I actually made a recording on my phone but forgot to say what each instrument was before I played it, and listening back it wasn't always clear which one was which. A schoolboy error!

[vladkobuxton]

So I think i'll be on the lookout for a used 34H, or do some more research into the features that it had that might make other horns worth a try.

[vladkobuxton]

The 500ATB is the same Jinbao Slokar clone as the JP136, you would be changing nothing.

The next tier up is the JP Rath 236, but that's a lot more expensive.

Also, stripping the lacquer off your JP136 won't give it a darker sound. It may slightly improve the response but that's about it.

I have the impression that a JP236 is cheaper in the UK than the US. Personally, I have one, an don't get on with it as well as I would like. Have been tempted to try the B&S at Dawkes. Their store is being expanded and opening up next week.

So for your information, I did some research on that one. I went on a german vintage musical instrument forum. They identified it from the serial number as being a 3049 from the year 1979!

[MrHCinDE]

Thanks for posting your experience of testing.

What you describe about the 34h (& 36h) is similar to how I feel about it and hence why I play it. It was a good idea to go and try the options, great that we still have some reputable bricks and mortar stores. It‘s a shame about the B&S but better to have figured it out before buying.

Personally I never had and success with any alto trombone with a 5G or equivalent, for me it is just far too deep amongst other things. I don‘t usually like a 5G on a small tenor even, only medium or large. You might think that a deep cup will automatically give you the depth of tone you want but perhaps a more typical alto trombone will be more balanced overall. There are options to have a 5G sized rim if that suits you.

Anyway, one other tip to try would be a Yamaha 671, they occasionally come up used in a similar price range to the B&S and though I sold mine to buy a 36h (needed the valve) it probably very slightly had the edge over the 36h for sound and intonation.

[Chronos91]

Finetales already mentioned that the 500ATB is the same Slokar clone. I just wanted to mention that I don't like mine either (not that it matters, but mine is an Elkhart Conn Selmer branded one). What issues do you have with yours? Tuning is quite big one for me. Even partials that should be good have bizarre tendencies, and are positions seem to change drastically between them. I'm also not convinced that I have a real 7th position. That said, I've seen a lot of comments suggesting altos can be extremely mouthpiece sensitive, and I haven't played another alto to compare it to.

Yeah, it comes down to a couple things with the mouthpiece -- the balance of the backbore and throat will affect the intonation. Using a tenor piece on alto won't have that balance, so you will find things like compressed or stretched octaves. Also, the shank dimension will affect intonation. For the 36H, 34H (and the Shires altos, in my experience) the thing tends to play better with a mouthpiece that goes in further.

So the Conn 7C was designed with that in mind. So were all the small shank Lindberg pieces. And Doug Elliott's Alto-S shanks are also designed with this in mind.

In general, you can keep trying all kinds of tenor mouthpieces and you probably won't find a solution to bizarre tuning that you are finding on alto. Then you can try a real alto mouthpiece, and suddenly it will make sense. It's similar to why people will play a different length mouthpiece on Eb trumpet or C trumpet. It's a different instrument.

That said, the Jinbao stuff is not going to be as in tune as a pro horn.

I went ahead and ordered a Lindberg 13. I'm hoping that will make it make sense. That stuff really gets in the way of wanting to ever play it.