Play-testing adventure in Japan by a mad man - 10 bass trombones tested (Now with videos)
Posted: Sun Apr 07, 2024 9:48 am
It has been 5 years since my last visit to Japan, due to COVID and other reasons, so I was looking forward to this trip. However, there is an additional reason for excitement: I planned to, and did, visited many trombone shops in Tokyo and tried many of their horns, with my own horn brought from Thailand for comparison!
No one in their right mind would bring his trombone to a trip that changes hotel every night and involves much walking. Now I know my mind ain’t right. Coming from a country that a chance to try various horns is rare: even at the annual “Trombone Festival” there is normally at most only 4-5 bass trombones to try, I have always wanted to do this, even though it means my shoulder feels like rice sack hauler of the old days from walking 1-2 hours with my horn on it.
Enough intro. Let’s go straight to the topic. Warning: so many photos!
The 5 shops I visited are:
Shimokura Gakki - a large but general music store in the middle of the musical instrument shop district, Ochanomizu. Most other shops in this area sell guitars, basses and drums. The shop dedicates 1 entire, but not so large, floor for brass instruments. They sell only Bach, Yamaha, and their own house brand (likely Chinese or Taiwanese-made). They have a 50B3, 50AF3G, 50B2, 50B2O, and a Yamaha YBL-835D. I haven’t tried any horn horn here because the test room looks so small it might not accommodate 2 bass trombones, and I had not reserved before because I cannot find the way to do so on their website. But it worth a visit if you are in Tokyo. Some smaller shops selling second-hand horns are also in the area.
Yamaha Ginza - The main shop of the Japanese giant. 1 large floor for orchestral instruments, with the brass section slightly larger than that of Shimokura. Many foreign customers visit so if you go there don’t worry about the language. When I contacted them in February, they said the entire YBL-835 family is in the shop (835, 835G, 835D, and 835GD, save the silver-plated 835S). However the D and the GD have already been sold at the time I was there (crying in the corner), however I still got to try the 835 and the 835G for almost an entire hour, which is still great.
DAC (pronounced Da-Ku) - an instrument shop in Shinjuku area, easily (~5 min walk) from Shin-Okubo station. Some here might have heard the name from the case they produced. They seem to be very famous in at least Tokyo area since when I was there on Sunday, they are crowded with customers. Many interesting horns here, including a Jürgen Voigt J-147, a B&S MS14 Meistersinger, a Shires with double Thayer valves and heavy bell, Kühnl & Hoyer HB5/G BZ V, a YBL-835D, and an XO with double Thayer. I tried all of them except the XO. The staffs are ultra-friendly. Must visit.
Joybrass - A shop specialized in trumpet and trombone. The shop is located a bit far from the heart of Tokyo but near Haneda airport and can easily be reached via Kamata station of Keikyū line. On the day I visited they have a Jupiter JTB-1180, a Kühnl & Hoyer B5/G BZ V, a Greenhoe CG5-3R, a Courtois Legend 502, and 2 Shires, one with rotor and one with Thayer. I tried the Greenhoe and the Kühnl & Hoyer.
Miki Gakki Low Brass Center - This one was not in the original schedule, but it was recommended to me by a friend, and thanks to him it was the shop with most horns to try! Many Shires, both custom, artist, and Q series, all variations of YBL-835 (looking at you, Yamaha Ginza), a Laetzsch 580, a K&H, and some more unique German horns. However I decided to try only the Laetzsch, Shires George Curran, and YBL-835D and GD. I cannot post the photos of the horns tested at this shop here since my imgur storage is full, sadly.
The followings is a brief review, arranged from most-disliked to most-liked. I tried all the horns with Yamaha Douglas Yeo mouthpiece.
B&S MS27 Meistersinger (DAC) - The horn has gold brass bell with nickel-silver kranz, nickel silver outer slides, (gold?) brass crook, and a sound plate on the tuning slide. Heavy, unbalanced in the roll axis (the horn constantly tries to rotate away from me), with very uncomfortable grip even though a handrest is equipped. The bell-slide clearance is also small. The sound out of it was not quite unlike my Yamaha, maybe a little bit larger, hollower, and duller. This is quite a disappointment, since I have always wanted to try a German-style horn, and this one is the closest to that ideal. I tried my best to like it, but I can’t.
Laetzsch 580 (Miki Gakki) - Gold brass bell with thinner nickel silver kranz, gold brass tubings, and nickel silver outer slide with gold brass crook. Overall the materials are the same as the MS27. The word that can best describe this horn is "cloudy". The sound is unclear and the articulations are dull and mushy. The partial is also very wide, much wider than I would be comfortable with. The only good point I could find is that the slide is very light and quick. I honestly don't want to believe that both German-style horns (the K&H seems more American-style with some German elements) are at the bottom of the list. Maybe I have to use a mouthpiece with smaller throat?
Shires (DAC) - B1 2YHW bell, so 2-piece, unsoldered, heavyweight. No other stamp can be seen. Maybe I didn’t look closely enough. The slide is single-bore .562” with nickel crook. I tried to take out the leadpipe, but it was quite tight and I gave up since I was worried I might bend it. It is second-hand with some lacquer wear, but still looks relatively pretty. The horn is HEAVY, and quite uncomfortable to hold. Normally I don’t like Thayer valves, but this one I have relatively no problem with. However, the sound is uneven between almost note-to-note. Granted, I am not a pro, and I am not that consistent, but this horn sounds much more different between notes than any horn I have tried.
Shires George Curran (Miki Gakki) - The specs on the website is BII yellow brass bell in standard weight and soldered rim, dual bore slide, and lightweight Thayer valve set. It is MUCH lighter than the one above, which removes the con on ergonomics. The sound is a bit darker than the 830X, but lights up and becomes brighter at higher dynamics, which for me is a pro. However, the inconsistency mentioned above is also present in this horn. Is it a Shires thing? I don't know. But it sure does deduct the point, and this horn is only 4th from bottom on my list.
Kühnl & Hoyer B5/G BZ V (Joybrass) - The horn has gold brass bell, lightweight bronze outer slide (no oversleeve), brass crook, and Meinlschmidt Open Flow rotors. While I like another K&H, described below, same cannot be said to this horn. The horn is heavy, even heavier than the Greenhoe below, and also unstable in roll axis, but not to the degree of the B&S. The sound is also lackluster, with even less middle overtones (the “meat”) than my 830X which is the otherwise tightest and most compact horn of the group. The slot is also large, and I miss many notes. The upside is that the slide is so light, especially when compared with the…
Greenhoe GC5-3R (Joybrass) - The horn has red brass bell, tuning in the bell, and gold brass slide with nickel crook. The darkest and softest, but with edge when pushed. Large sound but has a “nasal” edge (high upper harmonics), the characteristic that I noticed in almost every horn with red brass bell I have tried. The Greenhoe valves (octagon cap!) are free-blowing and the throw is familiar for me, but the horn is a bit on the hefty side. I might probably like it more if the slide were not so heavy.
Kühnl & Hoyer HB5/G BZ V (DAC) - Another K & H, with same specs as the above but with double Hagmann valve. MASSIVE difference for the better. The horn is freer blowing and has larger but more hollow sound. The balance is also great, but the valves interfere with my neck a bit. The slide was great. The valve throw is short, but the valves are slightly sluggish, maybe typical of Hagmanns?
Jürgen Voigt J-147 (DAC) - Looks less German than the B&S, but plays much more Germanic. I am not sure about the model number, since it looks like the J-147 but has no counterweight, and the slide looks like dual-bore, in gold brass with oversleeve and nickel silver crook. Dark, wide, large sound. The Hagmann valves also has the same pros and cons as the K&H described above. The slide is also light and fast. This one and the K&H above are quite similar and I would consider them a tie, with the Voigt having a bit edge in “Exotic” factor.
Yamaha YBL-830X - My own horn and the baseline in this testing. The “X” indicates that it is not stock, with gold brass tuning slide of YBL-835, lightweight valve caps of YBL-822G, and a counterweight of YSL-882. As far as I have tried 5-6 YBL-830s, mine is the best. But in this testing I notice that my horn is unforgiving. What goes in, comes out. If I play sloppily, the sound is sloppy, no help in slotting whatsoever. The blow is also tight and very compact, but I suspect that it is partly because of the counterweight and the lightweight caps. I may try fiddling with them in the future and we’ll see how far can the horn goes. Anyway, it is MY horn, and I would not trade it for horns described above. For those below, I might.
**** Update - the horn is now normal YBL-830 since I now removed the counterweight and reverted back to original parts based on the recommendation of my former band director and my friend (who recommend Miki Gakki to me). As far as I can tell the horn is more open and the sound is less compact, but larger. Maybe the original is the best configuration all along
****
Yamaha YBL-835 (Yamaha Ginza) - The base model of the new Xeno bass, with uncut yellow brass bell. I have heard someone here said that the 835 is the same as the 830. I have to disagree. The difference is easily noticeable: the horn has larger but hollower sound, more efficient, and freer blowing, with more flexible slotting comparing to my 830X. Maybe it is because my horn is modified, but the difference is definitely there. However, I don’t quite like the hand support. Maybe my grip is different. The new finger paddle also feels weird coming from that of the 830.
Yamaha YBL-835GD (Miki Gakki) - The cut gold brass bell version of the 835D. warmer sound with the added compactness of the cut bell. I like the sound of this horn the most, but the weight of the bell adds resistance which, combined with that from the gold brass bell, makes me like the 835D more.
Yamaha YBL-835G (Yamaha Ginza) - Same as the above, but with the warmer sound from the gold brass bell. However, much to my surprise, the horn does not light up or become nasal drastically when pushed, unlike other gold brass bell I have tried. The black cylinder of handrest rattles a bit, other than that the horn is a keeper.
Yamaha YBL-835D (DAC and Miki Gakki) - We have arrived, at last, at my most favorite. The 835D takes all the pros of the 835, and adds a bit of compactness and firmer slotting. I am not a fan of cut bell, but in this case it really makes the horn better. Sound-wise the 835GD is a bit better with mellower sound, but the 835D wins with less resistance. The one at Miki Gakki seems a bit brighter, but overall both of them are still at number 1. I would buy it without thinking if I had 750,000 JPY, which is 5 times my salary and I don’t have…
***** Updated with the videos of the testing! (No commentary) *****
Plus 4 more horns tested at Miki Gakki Osaka.
Since the mic settings and the rooms are different, the sound cannot be compared across the videos. Therefore I included the YBL-830X for reference.
Yamaha Ginza
DAC Shinjuku/Shin-Okubo
JoyBrass Kamata
Miki Gakki Osaka
And there they are, 10 bass trombones tested by a mad man who carried his horn all the way from Thailand to Japan. I hope this is useful for you in at least some way. Thank you!
No one in their right mind would bring his trombone to a trip that changes hotel every night and involves much walking. Now I know my mind ain’t right. Coming from a country that a chance to try various horns is rare: even at the annual “Trombone Festival” there is normally at most only 4-5 bass trombones to try, I have always wanted to do this, even though it means my shoulder feels like rice sack hauler of the old days from walking 1-2 hours with my horn on it.
Enough intro. Let’s go straight to the topic. Warning: so many photos!
The 5 shops I visited are:
Shimokura Gakki - a large but general music store in the middle of the musical instrument shop district, Ochanomizu. Most other shops in this area sell guitars, basses and drums. The shop dedicates 1 entire, but not so large, floor for brass instruments. They sell only Bach, Yamaha, and their own house brand (likely Chinese or Taiwanese-made). They have a 50B3, 50AF3G, 50B2, 50B2O, and a Yamaha YBL-835D. I haven’t tried any horn horn here because the test room looks so small it might not accommodate 2 bass trombones, and I had not reserved before because I cannot find the way to do so on their website. But it worth a visit if you are in Tokyo. Some smaller shops selling second-hand horns are also in the area.
Yamaha Ginza - The main shop of the Japanese giant. 1 large floor for orchestral instruments, with the brass section slightly larger than that of Shimokura. Many foreign customers visit so if you go there don’t worry about the language. When I contacted them in February, they said the entire YBL-835 family is in the shop (835, 835G, 835D, and 835GD, save the silver-plated 835S). However the D and the GD have already been sold at the time I was there (crying in the corner), however I still got to try the 835 and the 835G for almost an entire hour, which is still great.
DAC (pronounced Da-Ku) - an instrument shop in Shinjuku area, easily (~5 min walk) from Shin-Okubo station. Some here might have heard the name from the case they produced. They seem to be very famous in at least Tokyo area since when I was there on Sunday, they are crowded with customers. Many interesting horns here, including a Jürgen Voigt J-147, a B&S MS14 Meistersinger, a Shires with double Thayer valves and heavy bell, Kühnl & Hoyer HB5/G BZ V, a YBL-835D, and an XO with double Thayer. I tried all of them except the XO. The staffs are ultra-friendly. Must visit.
Joybrass - A shop specialized in trumpet and trombone. The shop is located a bit far from the heart of Tokyo but near Haneda airport and can easily be reached via Kamata station of Keikyū line. On the day I visited they have a Jupiter JTB-1180, a Kühnl & Hoyer B5/G BZ V, a Greenhoe CG5-3R, a Courtois Legend 502, and 2 Shires, one with rotor and one with Thayer. I tried the Greenhoe and the Kühnl & Hoyer.
Miki Gakki Low Brass Center - This one was not in the original schedule, but it was recommended to me by a friend, and thanks to him it was the shop with most horns to try! Many Shires, both custom, artist, and Q series, all variations of YBL-835 (looking at you, Yamaha Ginza), a Laetzsch 580, a K&H, and some more unique German horns. However I decided to try only the Laetzsch, Shires George Curran, and YBL-835D and GD. I cannot post the photos of the horns tested at this shop here since my imgur storage is full, sadly.
The followings is a brief review, arranged from most-disliked to most-liked. I tried all the horns with Yamaha Douglas Yeo mouthpiece.
B&S MS27 Meistersinger (DAC) - The horn has gold brass bell with nickel-silver kranz, nickel silver outer slides, (gold?) brass crook, and a sound plate on the tuning slide. Heavy, unbalanced in the roll axis (the horn constantly tries to rotate away from me), with very uncomfortable grip even though a handrest is equipped. The bell-slide clearance is also small. The sound out of it was not quite unlike my Yamaha, maybe a little bit larger, hollower, and duller. This is quite a disappointment, since I have always wanted to try a German-style horn, and this one is the closest to that ideal. I tried my best to like it, but I can’t.
Laetzsch 580 (Miki Gakki) - Gold brass bell with thinner nickel silver kranz, gold brass tubings, and nickel silver outer slide with gold brass crook. Overall the materials are the same as the MS27. The word that can best describe this horn is "cloudy". The sound is unclear and the articulations are dull and mushy. The partial is also very wide, much wider than I would be comfortable with. The only good point I could find is that the slide is very light and quick. I honestly don't want to believe that both German-style horns (the K&H seems more American-style with some German elements) are at the bottom of the list. Maybe I have to use a mouthpiece with smaller throat?
Shires (DAC) - B1 2YHW bell, so 2-piece, unsoldered, heavyweight. No other stamp can be seen. Maybe I didn’t look closely enough. The slide is single-bore .562” with nickel crook. I tried to take out the leadpipe, but it was quite tight and I gave up since I was worried I might bend it. It is second-hand with some lacquer wear, but still looks relatively pretty. The horn is HEAVY, and quite uncomfortable to hold. Normally I don’t like Thayer valves, but this one I have relatively no problem with. However, the sound is uneven between almost note-to-note. Granted, I am not a pro, and I am not that consistent, but this horn sounds much more different between notes than any horn I have tried.
Shires George Curran (Miki Gakki) - The specs on the website is BII yellow brass bell in standard weight and soldered rim, dual bore slide, and lightweight Thayer valve set. It is MUCH lighter than the one above, which removes the con on ergonomics. The sound is a bit darker than the 830X, but lights up and becomes brighter at higher dynamics, which for me is a pro. However, the inconsistency mentioned above is also present in this horn. Is it a Shires thing? I don't know. But it sure does deduct the point, and this horn is only 4th from bottom on my list.
Kühnl & Hoyer B5/G BZ V (Joybrass) - The horn has gold brass bell, lightweight bronze outer slide (no oversleeve), brass crook, and Meinlschmidt Open Flow rotors. While I like another K&H, described below, same cannot be said to this horn. The horn is heavy, even heavier than the Greenhoe below, and also unstable in roll axis, but not to the degree of the B&S. The sound is also lackluster, with even less middle overtones (the “meat”) than my 830X which is the otherwise tightest and most compact horn of the group. The slot is also large, and I miss many notes. The upside is that the slide is so light, especially when compared with the…
Greenhoe GC5-3R (Joybrass) - The horn has red brass bell, tuning in the bell, and gold brass slide with nickel crook. The darkest and softest, but with edge when pushed. Large sound but has a “nasal” edge (high upper harmonics), the characteristic that I noticed in almost every horn with red brass bell I have tried. The Greenhoe valves (octagon cap!) are free-blowing and the throw is familiar for me, but the horn is a bit on the hefty side. I might probably like it more if the slide were not so heavy.
Kühnl & Hoyer HB5/G BZ V (DAC) - Another K & H, with same specs as the above but with double Hagmann valve. MASSIVE difference for the better. The horn is freer blowing and has larger but more hollow sound. The balance is also great, but the valves interfere with my neck a bit. The slide was great. The valve throw is short, but the valves are slightly sluggish, maybe typical of Hagmanns?
Jürgen Voigt J-147 (DAC) - Looks less German than the B&S, but plays much more Germanic. I am not sure about the model number, since it looks like the J-147 but has no counterweight, and the slide looks like dual-bore, in gold brass with oversleeve and nickel silver crook. Dark, wide, large sound. The Hagmann valves also has the same pros and cons as the K&H described above. The slide is also light and fast. This one and the K&H above are quite similar and I would consider them a tie, with the Voigt having a bit edge in “Exotic” factor.
Yamaha YBL-830X - My own horn and the baseline in this testing. The “X” indicates that it is not stock, with gold brass tuning slide of YBL-835, lightweight valve caps of YBL-822G, and a counterweight of YSL-882. As far as I have tried 5-6 YBL-830s, mine is the best. But in this testing I notice that my horn is unforgiving. What goes in, comes out. If I play sloppily, the sound is sloppy, no help in slotting whatsoever. The blow is also tight and very compact, but I suspect that it is partly because of the counterweight and the lightweight caps. I may try fiddling with them in the future and we’ll see how far can the horn goes. Anyway, it is MY horn, and I would not trade it for horns described above. For those below, I might.
**** Update - the horn is now normal YBL-830 since I now removed the counterweight and reverted back to original parts based on the recommendation of my former band director and my friend (who recommend Miki Gakki to me). As far as I can tell the horn is more open and the sound is less compact, but larger. Maybe the original is the best configuration all along
****Yamaha YBL-835 (Yamaha Ginza) - The base model of the new Xeno bass, with uncut yellow brass bell. I have heard someone here said that the 835 is the same as the 830. I have to disagree. The difference is easily noticeable: the horn has larger but hollower sound, more efficient, and freer blowing, with more flexible slotting comparing to my 830X. Maybe it is because my horn is modified, but the difference is definitely there. However, I don’t quite like the hand support. Maybe my grip is different. The new finger paddle also feels weird coming from that of the 830.
Yamaha YBL-835GD (Miki Gakki) - The cut gold brass bell version of the 835D. warmer sound with the added compactness of the cut bell. I like the sound of this horn the most, but the weight of the bell adds resistance which, combined with that from the gold brass bell, makes me like the 835D more.
Yamaha YBL-835G (Yamaha Ginza) - Same as the above, but with the warmer sound from the gold brass bell. However, much to my surprise, the horn does not light up or become nasal drastically when pushed, unlike other gold brass bell I have tried. The black cylinder of handrest rattles a bit, other than that the horn is a keeper.
Yamaha YBL-835D (DAC and Miki Gakki) - We have arrived, at last, at my most favorite. The 835D takes all the pros of the 835, and adds a bit of compactness and firmer slotting. I am not a fan of cut bell, but in this case it really makes the horn better. Sound-wise the 835GD is a bit better with mellower sound, but the 835D wins with less resistance. The one at Miki Gakki seems a bit brighter, but overall both of them are still at number 1. I would buy it without thinking if I had 750,000 JPY, which is 5 times my salary and I don’t have…
***** Updated with the videos of the testing! (No commentary) *****
Plus 4 more horns tested at Miki Gakki Osaka.
Since the mic settings and the rooms are different, the sound cannot be compared across the videos. Therefore I included the YBL-830X for reference.
Yamaha Ginza
DAC Shinjuku/Shin-Okubo
JoyBrass Kamata
Miki Gakki Osaka
And there they are, 10 bass trombones tested by a mad man who carried his horn all the way from Thailand to Japan. I hope this is useful for you in at least some way. Thank you!
