TromboneChat

Posted: **Sun Mar 31, 2024 9:27 am**

They say he's getting too old...

https://slippedisc.com/2024/03/conserva ... -to-teach/

Posted: **Sun Mar 31, 2024 9:49 am**

My first reaction was: how old is he?

Born in 1955, same age as me. Wait a minute!

I can’t imagine being too old to teach (all other things, for example health) being equal. I would only think that Ben knows more now, has more to share, than he ever did.

Posted: **Sun Mar 31, 2024 10:00 am**

I was just hitting my stride at age 68!

Posted: **Sun Mar 31, 2024 10:02 am**

Ridiculous! He has produced so many great students over the years - a shame for the next generation of trombonists!

Jim Scott

Posted: **Sun Mar 31, 2024 10:15 am**

April fools?

Posted: **Sun Mar 31, 2024 10:28 am**

AtomicClock wrote: ↑Sun Mar 31, 2024 10:15 amApril fools?

I don't think so...

Posted: **Sun Mar 31, 2024 11:00 am**

Unfortunately it is true.

There are rules in the Netherlands that involve the age of pension where you are essentially forced to retire. This age is currently set at 67, at which time you take your state pension.

Ben has already reached that age, and has already stopped at the Rotterdam Philharmonic.

You can of course ask your employer for a contract after this time, but they are not obligated to give it to you. You can apeal to a court if you think this judgement is unfair, so perhaps there might be further legal actions taken.

A shame.

Posted: **Sun Mar 31, 2024 11:08 am**

I stopped going to my high school reunions because of all the old people there.

Posted: **Sun Mar 31, 2024 11:26 am**

In the UK it's against the law to discriminate against a person because of age. I'm still playing as I can't afford to retire ! Ben will have a good pension, but wants to continue teaching. A shame . I stopped teaching. The pay is pretty poor. Playing is my retirement plan...and it's fun.

Posted: **Sun Mar 31, 2024 11:47 am**

I know this is an unpopular opinion. And please note that a) this has nothing to do with Ben van Dijk as a person/teacher/trombonist and b) I don't know details about these policies in the Netherlands.

But generally speaking many European countries have certain rules regarding pensions and when to leave your job behind. For some this may be too early, but for many it's actually too late.

From a broader perspective Mr Van Dijk is just one more person in the grand scheme of pension system. To us trombonists he is of course a treasure.

In my very personal opinion on the one hand Mr Van Dijk would certainly be a great teacher for many for years, but this is not a general rule. I studied at a renowned music school for a few years where the professor emeritus didn't really want to leave. Some great stories, and a Legendary trombonist, but maybe it would have been better to leave earlier.

I wish Mr van Dijk all the very best, maybe there are other formats like masterclasses etc where he can continue to teach and pass on his knowledge. he has a really great legacy and this doesn't need to be over.

Posted: **Sun Mar 31, 2024 12:43 pm**

If nobody retires there are no jobs that open up.

Posted: **Sun Mar 31, 2024 12:46 pm**

jacobgarchik wrote: ↑Sun Mar 31, 2024 12:43 pm If nobody retires there are no jobs that open up.

Posted: **Sun Mar 31, 2024 12:54 pm**

jacobgarchik wrote: ↑Sun Mar 31, 2024 12:43 pm If nobody retires there are no jobs that open up.

This has been a problem in academia since, roughly, the beginning of time -- and has been seriously exacerbated in European university systems wherein younger faculty must hang on for years simply (and literally) waiting for someone to die and open a senior position. (It's not QUITE as bad in US universities.)

The one thing I'm puzzled about in this case is the view that because of this employment decision he has to stop teaching. No he doesn't. He just can't teach in that position in that organization in precisely that way. C'est la vie.

Posted: **Sun Mar 31, 2024 1:12 pm**

content deleted by author

Posted: **Sun Mar 31, 2024 1:25 pm**

It's December 2025, that's substantially more than 1.5 years. more than enough time for current students to check where else to go. there are enough options around and I am sure BvD himself will do his best to support students with their search. I really don't find this very surprising or shocking. Outside music so many people have to live with personnel decisions that are much harder than this at a much younger age. and for the students it may be a little shock right now, but very very manageable.

Posted: **Sun Mar 31, 2024 1:41 pm**

musicofnote wrote: ↑Sun Mar 31, 2024 1:12 pm I only hope that some OTHER European conservatory notices who has suddenly become available and his phone rings off the hook with offers, even if for limited contracts, as he's a really exceptional teacher (and player, for that matter).

Yes, that would be nice and very appropriate, but such a position won't be comparable to the one he's leaving -- in several significant ways. And of course it may not be just OTHER conservatories who take advantage of that, since the very conservatory whose current position he'll be vacating may in fact be anxious to bring him back, but in a different position and role. I just can't see this as draconian or shocking, though I can't competently comment on how well it has (or might have) been handled in terms of the details.

Posted: **Sun Mar 31, 2024 1:42 pm**

Forced retirement is an interesting issue, pitting the individual’s personal interests against a greater social interest in freeing up jobs and advancement for younger people. Different societies take different views.

Here in the Wet Waste of Time part of the Great White North, the issue came to a head over the forced retirement of a senior cardiac surgeon who was required to retire at age 65. The courts ultimately upheld his right to continue working.

A friend continues to work as a gov’t bureaucrat at age 75. I think his motivation is equally divided between liking the money and pissing off management who would have had him leave years ago. My friend tells everyone he intends to work until age 85, in case management gets any ideas.

For BvD to be forced out of the orch and then the conservatory strikes these N American sensibilities as harsh. But this is not the Netherlands.

Posted: **Sun Mar 31, 2024 1:56 pm**

Bach5G wrote: ↑Sun Mar 31, 2024 1:42 pm Forced retirement is an interesting issue, ...

Generally, genuinely "forced" retirement simply can't happen unless it's based on explicit policy or explicit agreement beforehand. An organization has too much to potentially lose (in terms of prestige, money, and legal consequences) otherwise.

Posted: **Sun Mar 31, 2024 3:55 pm**

It's common in Europe that university teachers are not supposed to continue after retirement age, and can only do so under a new, different, contract, which the institution doesn't have to give. It's like that in Switzerland too. Sometimes it might be in order to buy the institution some time to do the thorough search they want to do, or because of a failure to hire a suitable replacement. Sometimes it's something like a limited contract to teach only those students who need to complete a degree they had started with the teacher. That was the case for me when I finished my masters degree. Shame that BvD and his students are not offered that possibility (though of course we don't know the reasons the institution has, or if there had been indications that that might be where it was headed followed by a change of direction).

Posted: **Sun Mar 31, 2024 5:45 pm**

LeTromboniste wrote: ↑Sun Mar 31, 2024 3:55 pm It's common in Europe that university teachers are not supposed to continue after retirement age,... It's like that in Switzerland too.

Oddly, many people tend to think that Switzerland is in Europe.

Just kidding. (But I've worked in Switzerland and "Europe" as well. I get what's being said.

).

LeTromboniste wrote: (... we don't know the reasons the institution has, or if there had been indications that that might be where it was headed followed by a change of direction).

There are probably several germane things we don't know about this situation.

Posted: **Mon Apr 01, 2024 7:24 am**

Well if I was doing the hiring and firing and managing of such a situation, I would want the best person doing the best job. If I was on the recieving end (i.e a student in this case) I would want the best person doing the best job of teaching me. If I worked in the Nederlands as a manager at The Royal Conservatoire or if I was a student or aspiring performer at The Royal Conservatoire that person would be Ben van Dyke. Age has absolutely nothing to do with it. Thats why its illegal in the UK. Get the best man to do the best job.

Posted: **Mon Apr 01, 2024 7:45 am**

To the extent to which there's any story here, it's about communication, rather than law or policy.

Posted: **Mon Apr 01, 2024 8:20 am**

blast wrote: ↑Sun Mar 31, 2024 11:26 am In the UK it's against the law to discriminate against a person because of age. I'm still playing as I can't afford to retire ! Ben will have a good pension, but wants to continue teaching. A shame . I stopped teaching. The pay is pretty poor. Playing is my retirement plan...and it's fun.

Chris I am so happy to hear this. I actually thought there was a mandatory retirement age for performing as well.

Posted: **Mon Apr 01, 2024 8:56 am**

DougHulme wrote: ↑Mon Apr 01, 2024 7:24 am Well if I was doing the hiring and firing and managing of such a situation, I would want the best person doing the best job. If I was on the recieving end (i.e a student in this case) I would want the best person doing the best job of teaching me. If I worked in the Nederlands as a manager at The Royal Conservatoire or if I was a student or aspiring performer at The Royal Conservatoire that person would be Ben van Dyke. Age has absolutely nothing to do with it. Thats why its illegal in the UK. Get the best man to do the best job.

No doubt that Mr Van Dijk may be the best possible teacher for many more years. however that decision is likely not driven by any issues with his person or teaching, but by HR strategy and/or politics. and then unfortunately such a great teacher becomes just a number in the system. in the end we all don't know the reasons.

Posted: **Mon Apr 01, 2024 9:03 am**

DougHulme wrote: ↑Mon Apr 01, 2024 7:24 am Age has absolutely nothing to do with it.

Ah, but here's the rub. Age absolutely does have something to with it -- at some point, for everyone. To deny that is simply to deny reality. And I say that while carefully watching my own age-related changes that are both physical and mental -- and I'm 8 years older than van Dijk.

Regarding "mandatory retirement" (which is, with some exceptions, still widely employed in the Netherlands), an interesting analysis of issues pertaining to it, and an account of recent thinking and changes, can be found in "Attitudes About Working Beyond Normal Retirement Age: The Role of Mandatory Retirement," which includes the observation that "In the Netherlands, labor contracts or collective labor agreements have a mandatory retirement applied, and working contracts are usually terminated by default once the older worker has reached the statutory retirement age." So mandatory retirement in that context should not be surprising, or even unfamiliar, to anyone. But as this paper demonstrates, it's also not a simple and straightforward issue in a society that values both personal freedom and a strong lifetime social/economic support structure.

https://www.researchgate.net/publicatio ... Retirement.

Posted: **Mon Apr 01, 2024 12:17 pm**

I can see both sides of this coin though. The Netherlands government is valuing both the individual AND society. They are looking out for the retiring professional with a pension, and they are looking out for the young professional with the opportunity for a job.

It would great to be able to keep working forever, but everyone knows this is impossible, and it hoses young professionals, and ultimately hoses old workers who have to keep working until they can't anymore and have nothing for retirement.

Posted: **Mon Apr 01, 2024 12:35 pm**

In full disclosure, I don't believe that I ever wanted to work forever -- certainly not in the sense of having a regular job for which I would be constantly committed to performing. As a consequence of my attitude toward work and career (and making life interesting), I walked out of a tenured professorship when I was 35 and then later went the path of early retirement (which I have never regretted) when I felt I didn't want to contribute more in the area in which I'd been most recently employed, and wanted to have fun doing other things. But I suppose that approach isn't for everyone, and certainly I know that most of the people I went through graduate school with are retaining their professorships to the bitter end, teaching part-time, and enjoying their lives as emeriti of one form or another. Different strokes for different folks, I suppose.

Posted: **Mon Apr 01, 2024 12:48 pm**

It also seems to me that something like a guaranteed pension would be something that musicians, of all people, would vote for and petition for. And such a thing comes with rules like this, and high taxes.

Posted: **Mon Apr 01, 2024 1:14 pm**

WGWTR180 wrote: ↑Mon Apr 01, 2024 8:20 am
blast wrote: ↑Sun Mar 31, 2024 11:26 am In the UK it's against the law to discriminate against a person because of age. I'm still playing as I can't afford to retire ! Ben will have a good pension, but wants to continue teaching. A shame . I stopped teaching. The pay is pretty poor. Playing is my retirement plan...and it's fun.
Chris I am so happy to hear this. I actually thought there was a mandatory retirement age for performing as well.

Luckily, there's no mandatory age for performing as badly too. I'm just hanging in there, paying the bills.

Posted: **Mon Apr 01, 2024 1:19 pm**

blast wrote: ↑Mon Apr 01, 2024 1:14 pm
WGWTR180 wrote: ↑Mon Apr 01, 2024 8:20 am

Chris I am so happy to hear this. I actually thought there was a mandatory retirement age for performing as well.
Luckily, there's no mandatory age for performing as badly too. I'm just hanging in there, paying the bills.

Nothing bad about you my friend.

Posted: **Mon Apr 01, 2024 1:25 pm**

This one is very complex. Ben is well aware of the retirement and pension rules of his country. He only moved to that college a few years ago. Perhaps he received promises that drew him to move college. People in the Netherlands, according to the report that was cited, expect to get 70% of their earned income in retirement. That's pretty good. Way better than you get in the UK. Way, Way better. There is a saying in the UK music world that 'you are as good as your last gig' .That's the level of security here. Very few people reach retirement age in orchestras here. I'm the oldest trombone player in a named orchestra here and the guy sitting next to me is the next oldest. Ha !

Posted: **Mon Apr 01, 2024 1:26 pm**

WGWTR180 wrote: ↑Mon Apr 01, 2024 1:19 pm
blast wrote: ↑Mon Apr 01, 2024 1:14 pm
Luckily, there's no mandatory age for performing as badly too. I'm just hanging in there, paying the bills.
Nothing bad about you my friend.

Too kind Bill.

Posted: **Mon Apr 01, 2024 3:34 pm**

blast wrote: ↑Mon Apr 01, 2024 1:25 pm This one is very complex. Ben is well aware of the retirement and pension rules of his country. He only moved to that college a few years ago. Perhaps he received promises that drew him to move college.

You've hit the nail on the head, Chris! Change of leadership... new policies. It's nothing personal towards Ben, but he's become a victim of institutional bureaucracy and a policy change. They may reconsider after all this hullaballoo, but I'm not hopeful. I was also attached to this very institution until last year, but I decided to enjoy my twilight years as an orchestral player rather than as a teacher. Ben took a different line. No need for me to extol his virtues. He's absolutely one of the greats. It's a huge pity for him and his students.

Once you reach the age of 67 you get AOW (which is essentially the government pension that everyone who works in NL gets), and you move into a different relationship with your employer. The employment rules change drastically once you are receiving your govt and employer pension. You do lose your tenured status and any continuation is based on a yearly contract by mutual agreement, and the very complex rules that govern employment in the Netherlands.

Posted: **Mon Apr 01, 2024 3:47 pm**

To be fair, I don't think van Dijk is complaining about losing the income, or about any other economic considerations. I have the sense that he just doesn't want to give up that very privileged (and I mean that in as neutral a way as possible) and influential (and I mean that in the best possible way) position, and continue the life (and effect on students and music) that he's worked so hard to achieve. I can't not have empathy for that -- however unrealistic it may be in the societal/organizational context in which he finds himself.

Posted: **Mon Apr 01, 2024 3:54 pm**

Retrobone wrote: ↑Mon Apr 01, 2024 3:34 pm
blast wrote: ↑Mon Apr 01, 2024 1:25 pm This one is very complex. Ben is well aware of the retirement and pension rules of his country. He only moved to that college a few years ago. Perhaps he received promises that drew him to move college.
You've hit the nail on the head, Chris! Change of leadership... new policies. It's nothing personal towards Ben, but he's become a victim of institutional bureaucracy and a policy change. They may reconsider after all this hullaballoo, but I'm not hopeful. I was also attached to this very institution until last year, but I decided to enjoy my twilight years as an orchestral player rather than as a teacher. Ben took a different line. No need for me to extol his virtues. He's absolutely one of the greats. It's a huge pity for him and his students.

Once you reach the age of 67 you get AOW (which is essentially the government pension that everyone who works in NL gets), and you move into a different relationship with your employer. The employment rules change drastically once you are receiving your govt and employer pension. You do lose your tenured status and any continuation is based on a yearly contract by mutual agreement, and the very complex rules that govern employment in the Netherlands.

Thank you for making that clear. Germany has a similar system which made it very difficult for some teachers to stay on past that date. In some cases it has worked out, but usually on part time Basis and only for a year or two. Essentially you are considered adjunct teacher/contractor.

What I do not understand about von Dijk's case is why he seems so surprised about it. Should he not have been prepared for this or was there a chance that the school could have kept him on if they had wanted to ?

If it is a decision to force him out based on age, then there is definitely a discrimination aspect to this. Especially since he is the one and only reason bass trombone has developed into an instrument taken seriously. However, if this is what awaits every Dutch citizen at his age, then I really think this is a bit too dramatic.

Posted: **Mon Apr 01, 2024 3:57 pm**

Retrobone wrote: ↑Mon Apr 01, 2024 3:34 pm You do lose your tenured status and any continuation is based on a yearly contract by mutual agreement, and the very complex rules that govern employment in the Netherlands.

But that should mean that there is "wiggle room" to continue (on an annual renewal basis) what you've been doing -- just under different administrative rules. Honestly, as a way of handling age-related problems of employees, this seems ideal to me -- basically "If you can keep doing this, we can provide you an environment in which you can keep doing it." But it removes your "right to renewal" -- and because next year ... well ... you may not be up to the task any longer -- and the organization has to determine that. I have a good friend (whom I "left behind" when I retired), a Ph.D. and DSc, renowned in his field, and prior department chairman, from Moscow State, who has been working in this way (in industry it's typically done as a "consulting contract") for the past decade. I think that now he's finally retired.

But I'm not sure.

Posted: **Mon Apr 01, 2024 4:30 pm**

RustBeltBass wrote: ↑Mon Apr 01, 2024 3:54 pm What I do not understand about von Dijk's case is why he seems so surprised about it. Should he not have been prepared for this or was there a chance that the school could have kept him on if they had wanted to ?

Based on this statement:

Due to a sudden change in personnel policy, I have been informed that as of December 2025, because of age, I will no longer be able to teach at the Koninklijk Conservatorium – Royal Conservatoire in The Hague.

it sounds like he thought the issued of his continued employment was settled and then got blindsided.

Posted: **Mon Apr 01, 2024 4:47 pm**

JohnL wrote: ↑Mon Apr 01, 2024 4:30 pm
Due to a sudden change in personnel policy, I have been informed that as of December 2025, because of age, I will no longer be able to teach at the Koninklijk Conservatorium – Royal Conservatoire in The Hague.
it sounds like he thought the issued of his continued employment was settled and then got blindsided.

What's not clear in this (although it may be made clear elsewhere?) is WHO made the change in personnel policy. Exactly which organization's personnel policy is at issue? Was it the Conservatoire? Or was it the Netherlands government which made a change in mandatory retirement age? If the former, then certainly there's a case to be made against his management (assuming some other things about the details of the agreement in effect). If it's the latter, then good luck -- but it's difficult to hold the Conservatoire responsible for the consequences.

Posted: **Mon Apr 01, 2024 5:27 pm**

Exactly which organization's personnel policy is at issue? Was it the Conservatoire? Or was it the Netherlands government.
[/quote]

It would have been the conservatory's perview. The Dutch governments pension policies have been well known for decades and are written into all employment contracts (like it is in mine). By the end of 2025 Ben will have turned 70. 3 years past the "pension age". Maybe that is now the policy of the school, no teachers over 70.

I believe, from a post he wrote yesterday, Ben is most upset that he won't be able to take the students he just accepted through to the end of their bachelors study (in the year 2056/27). Something the school had previously allowed. (In the case Max discussed earlier, that was also at the Royal Conservatorium. For him and another colleague of ours, the sackbut teacher Charles, was allowed to stay on.)

Posted: **Mon Apr 01, 2024 6:49 pm**

SamBTbrn wrote: ↑Mon Apr 01, 2024 5:27 pm
It would have been the conservatory's perview. The Dutch governments pension policies have been well known for decades and are written into all employment contracts (like it is in mine). By the end of 2025 Ben will have turned 70. 3 years past the "pension age". Maybe that is now the policy of the school, no teachers over 70.

I believe, from a post he wrote yesterday, Ben is most upset that he won't be able to take the students he just accepted through to the end of their bachelors study (in the year 2056/27). Something the school had previously allowed. (In the case Max discussed earlier, that was also at the Royal Conservatorium. For him and another colleague of ours, the sackbut teacher Charles, was allowed to stay on.)

If that's the case, I would expect it to be possible to satisfy that with a (formal to some degree) arrangement to allow precisely that -- even in the form of some sort of part-time teaching contract. I think that such things would typically be very easy here in the US (where the universities are now littered with part-time or temporary faculty). So I'd be surprised if it couldn't be achieved in the Netherlands -- unless in the Netherlands "retirement" means that you can't work at all (in any job) after you retire from a job. And that's hard to believe, though academic bureaucracies can get pretty twisted in terms of privileges, responsibilities, and authority.

For some years (including after my retirement from my regular job with a major corporation) I held the position of "visiting scholar" at a large state university -- where I had no responsibilities, no authority, virtually no privileges (except for a shared office, email account, and library access), though I did teach a couple of courses (for peasant wages) during that time. And I'd never worked for the university prior to that. Surely something like that should be manageable to solve that student problem.

Posted: **Tue Apr 02, 2024 3:58 pm**

SamBTbrn wrote: ↑Mon Apr 01, 2024 5:27 pm (In the case Max discussed earlier, that was also at the Royal Conservatorium. For him and another colleague of ours, the sackbut teacher Charles, was allowed to stay on.)

For me it was actually during my masters at the Schola in Basel, where Charles Toet was allowed to stay one extra year, and he and Catherine Motuz overlapped so I had lessons with both (sometimes together). I had previously studied for two years with each of them so it was nice to finish with both together! In The Hague I was there the last year before Charles retired, but he did then stay on for a year or two to see one colleague through his studies.

I think there are benefits for institutions to at least offer the option to students to finish their studies with the teacher they came to study with. In some ways it also makes for a smoother transition for the class overall. But in some situations it might not be such a good idea or work well, and there's also a case to be made for the new teacher to be given the best chance to succeed immediately and to start with a full class.

Posted: **Wed Apr 03, 2024 7:05 am**

Oh yes, sorry Max I was remembering it wrong.
As always best regards!

Posted: **Wed Apr 03, 2024 4:33 pm**

Pensions? What's that concept?
(....oh yeah...that's something that politicians/corporations over here want to make disappear altogether....)

Music departments/conservatories at universities and colleges are also getting cut practically daily (...saving money, they say). And, their pension plans often disappear due to bad investing they entrust to private investors, or corporations. So, many long-time professors/teachers are even lucky to get what they're owed for a lifetime of work.

Sadly, things work a little differently on this side of the ocean.

(...writing from the USA....)

Posted: **Wed Apr 03, 2024 5:40 pm**

Cmillar wrote: ↑Wed Apr 03, 2024 4:33 pm So, many long-time professors/teachers are even lucky to get what they're owed for a lifetime of work.

I don't know where you're getting this information from, but it's not my experience (either personally or in terms of all the academics I've stayed in touch with over the years). Every college/university I've ever worked with, had friends at, or even heard about, uses TIAA/CREF for their retirement accounts. It's the standard, and has been for decades. And the performance of those is quite exemplary. The private investment advisors I use are hard-pressed to match CREF performance. If I were able, post-retirement, I would have moved all my funds into CREF. But, of course, no longer being a professor, I can't. How fair is that?

If you like the idea of a "pension" (i.e., the fixed income aspect of it), then you go with a TIAA annuity (and many/most academics do that either entirely or in part). If you like the idea of "investment" and "return on investment," then you go with CREF (which uses a set of market funds that they created and managed -- that's the way I went, 100%). Your choice. When I "retired" (well, left at the age of 35), I had the choice of cashing out entirely (lump sum), or leaving my university investment in CREF and taking a "variable annuity" until my death. Because I didn't need the money at that time (having actually acquired a job that paid well), I opted for the annual payments. The results have been astonishing -- probably an average of $8,000 (possibly more, but it would take some effort to check) per year, and that includes during the recent COVID crash. That's ... what? ... over $335, 000 as "retirement" for a 10 year career? And my colleagues who remained in academia have done similarly well (and at least comparably if they stayed, to one degree or another, in TIAA). They're not exactly living in shacks and subsisting on gruel.

Many (Most? All? I don't know. Certainly a lot.) public school systems in the US also use TIAA/CREF. So people who've done work in the academic sector for a lifetime have, in my experience, been pretty well rewarded by it. And if they've worked in state schools systems they often have additional benefits as well.

Sadly, things work a little differently on this side of the ocean.

(...writing from the USA....)

Or, happily, they work quite a bit differently.

From working in multi-national corporations for my almost 3 decade post-academic life, I could also talk about that too -- especially concerning my Brit colleagues (who did, unlike the US side, have a pension system). But I won't.

Posted: **Wed Apr 03, 2024 7:05 pm**

The public service pensions in Canada are doing pretty well. The Ontario Teachers Pension is massive. Defined benefit, indexed. You could only do better if you held public office.

But I recall reading that Julian Priester did not earn a pension during his decades teaching at Cornish (since 1979) in Seattle.

Posted: **Wed Apr 03, 2024 7:22 pm**

ghmerrill wrote: ↑Wed Apr 03, 2024 5:40 pm
Cmillar wrote: ↑Wed Apr 03, 2024 4:33 pm So, many long-time professors/teachers are even lucky to get what they're owed for a lifetime of work.
I don't know where you're getting this information from, but it's not my experience (either personally or in terms of all the academics I've stayed in touch with over the years).

Well, things have changed since you last worked in the secondary ed/college teaching systems, according to my good friends at a few schools/colleges in whom I would trust what they say.

And, corporations are not a good example of fairness to their employees unless you're talking about being very, very high up in the ladder.

So, between shaky/diminishing pensions for the future along with the current trend of slashing the arts in higher ed, that's the reality of the present day here in North America.

People that have a job in higher ed in the US or Canada are very fortunate....hang onto it and get involved with your federation or union to keep pensions solvent and find out where the money is. (...that is, if you have a union where you happen to live; it's a state by state thing, and the senators/congress won't help out.)

Posted: **Wed Apr 03, 2024 9:12 pm**

Cmillar wrote: ↑Wed Apr 03, 2024 7:22 pm Well, things have changed since you last worked in the secondary ed/college teaching systems, according to my good friends at a few schools/colleges in whom I would trust what they say.

And, corporations are not a good example of fairness to their employees unless you're talking about being very, very high up in the ladder.

The facts about the ubiquity of TIAA, and its benefits, in educational institutions are easily seen with brief investigation on the web. I've remained in close contact with students (some of whom were my interns for several years) and with academic colleagues in my area of research and publication even since I retired, and that includes in the US, Europe, Australia, the Middle East, and Asia. I continue to communicate with them even now -- sometimes over professional matters and sometimes just personally. So I'm not really out of touch.

I could also tell you stories about two of my children starting jobs after quitting college (without degrees) and working for large corporations, starting at menial jobs and rising up the hierarchy. In the case of one, he started in IBM's shipping department, keeping track of shipping traffic, and then rose through various positions over 10 ten years to be designated as "top talent" -- after IBM paid for him to get his C.S. degree (going part time) over that period. In the case of the other -- who never got a degree -- he worked for IBM, HP, Red Hat, and a large regional bank in a variety of computer systems design/development/training/etc. jobs. Without a degree, but with excellent income and benefits.

So it's real hard for me to knock the fairness of corporations to their employees in any kind of general way, though I'm definitely able to knock specific corporations for specific sins of management or employee mistreatment -- and I even have my own stories of corporate or managerial malfeasance. But in my experience, and in my family's experience, over multiple decades, I'd have to say that in general the fairness in the corporate world has been there.

But you're welcome to your own opinion and your own view of how things might be done better.

Posted: **Wed Apr 03, 2024 9:13 pm**

ghmerrill wrote: ↑Wed Apr 03, 2024 5:40 pm
Cmillar wrote: ↑Wed Apr 03, 2024 4:33 pm So, many long-time professors/teachers are even lucky to get what they're owed for a lifetime of work.
Every college/university I've ever worked with, had friends at, or even heard about, uses TIAA/CREF for their retirement accounts. It's the standard, and has been for decades. And the performance of those is quite exemplary. The private investment advisors I use are hard-pressed to match CREF performance.

Adjuncts are treated differently than tenure-track and other "permanent" faculty. (Differently is a polite way of saying they get the s####y end of the stick.) One of the differences is that they frequently do not get retirement contributions, usually because they are treated as contractors (1099 employees) rather than W-2 employees. Many music studio instructors are adjuncts.

Most public universities preferentially use their state's retirement system. These are usually (but not always) defined benefit plans which are usually (but not always) indexed. Once I reached age 65, I started receiving an annual COLA of half of the CPI for the previous calendar year. When I accepted my tenure-track appointment at NMSU, that was the only system available.

Some states (like Ohio) offer some choices within their state retirement system. If memory serves, the choices were a defined benefit plan, a defined contribution plan managed by Ohio State Teacher's Retirement System, and a weird hybrid I never understood. Like many (but not all public universities) Ohio public universities also offer independent 403(b) systems (like TIAA/CREF).

What the independent systems offer the faculty member is instant vesting and mobility. There is usually a "required" contribution that has to be made to the state retirement system, but that is only intended to compensate the system for the lost enrollee. Basically, you have to pay a price for the instant vesting and being able to take your retirement account with you to a new school not in your state's retirement system.

Posted: **Wed Apr 03, 2024 9:22 pm**

ghmerrill wrote: ↑Wed Apr 03, 2024 9:12 pm
Cmillar wrote: ↑Wed Apr 03, 2024 7:22 pm Well, things have changed since you last worked in the secondary ed/college teaching systems, according to my good friends at a few schools/colleges in whom I would trust what they say.

And, corporations are not a good example of fairness to their employees unless you're talking about being very, very high up in the ladder.
But you're welcome to your own opinion and your own view of how things might be done better.

Glad to hear about the success of your family's work stories....that have totally nothing to do with the music world or music teaching.

But, still, glad to hear they've done well.

My friends in music academia, whose jobs are being cut and are facing dubious success of getting their pensions, won't have such an experience.

But what do I know! I'm just a life-long gigging musician with my fingers in a lot of various music activities.

Posted: **Wed Apr 03, 2024 11:51 pm**

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Ben van Dijk - Forced Retirement from Royal Conservatoire

Ben van Dijk - Forced Retirement from Royal Conservatoire

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Re: Ben van Dijk - Forced Retirement from Royal Conservatoire

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