TromboneChat

Hey all, I'm looking to do a solo on tenor next year at my uni, but all I have is a small bore horn and it's not looking very likely that i am going to have instrument buying money. I mainly play bass and am still doing solos there obviously (playing Cameos this semester) but am interested in doing a tenor solo. Any suggestions for pieces that would still sound "Okay" on a small bore horn? I had a friend suggest "2 Latin Dances"

Try anything out of Michael Davis' Bone kill book.

Also, a lot of French solos would have been written for what we now think of, or something similar to it, as small bore horns. Cavatine, Morceau Symphonique. You name it.

I presume your small-bore tenor does not have an F-attachment?
Fortunately, there are quite a few "academically acceptable" trombone solos that do not require a valve.

Why would any solo piece not sound okay and be perfectly appropriate on a small bore trombone? With the exception of "classical" music written fairly recently, where a composer may have a large bore tenor in mind, virtually no music of any kind was written with the expectation that it be performed on the large bore trombone of today, with .547 bore, 8 1/2" bell, and a large, deep mouthpiece. In fact, much of the classical music written for trombone was originally performed on trombones with bores considerably smaller than what we now consider small bore. Simply because large bore trombones are almost universally used in symphony orchestras does not mean that they have characteristics that are more suitable for classical music.

All those Arthur Prior pieces were originally played on small bore horns.

tbdana wrote: ↑Mon Jan 15, 2024 7:00 pm All those Arthur Prior pieces were originally played on small bore horns.

Arthur Pryor himself played those pieces on a Holton trombone with .458 bore and 6 1/4" bell.

SteveM wrote: ↑Mon Jan 15, 2024 8:05 pm

tbdana wrote: ↑Mon Jan 15, 2024 7:00 pm All those Arthur Prior pieces were originally played on small bore horns.

Arthur Pryor himself played those pieces on a Holton trombone with .458 bore and 6 1/4" bell.

Always thought Pryor played a Conn...

The one Pryor owned that Alessi used to record all the solos on was a Conn from 1894, if the album notes are to be believed.

No doubt the guy owned more than one trombone, and more than one brand of trombone.

Here's an ad from Holton:

"With the Holton Revelation Trombone", writes Arthur Pryor, "the seemingly impossible is made possible. I am positively astounded."

It's hard to believe an astounded Pryor wouldn't buy (or be given) one.
https://www.popscreen.com/prod/OTgzMjky ... hur-Pryor-

Contrast that with the Conn Dillon Music used to sell:

Included are the following:
Conn Trombone, Gold Plated and Engraved
“Made for Arthur Pryor by Jake Burke, 1894”

https://web.archive.org/web/20061118175 ... ombone.htm

Saint-Saens Cavatine is totally doable. Couple of Bs and an E, one run with a C from Bb.

JohnL wrote: ↑Mon Jan 15, 2024 8:23 pm

SteveM wrote: ↑Mon Jan 15, 2024 8:05 pm

Arthur Pryor himself played those pieces on a Holton trombone with .458 bore and 6 1/4" bell.

Always thought Pryor played a Conn...

Pryor played a Conn when he joined Sousa's band. At that time, Frank Holton was Sousa's solo trombonist. Realizing Pryor was a far better player, Holton stayed for a year to help Pryor ease into the solo position, then left the band to start his instrument manufacturing business. Once the Holton trombone was available, Pryor obtained and played one, and continued to play it for the remainder of his career.

If you also have a bass a lot of tenor repertoire is also fine on that fwiw

Nothing technical advanced in there, but still a lovely tune with lots of room for musical interpretation is Reflective Mood by Sammy Nestico. Did that on small bore tenor once and it worked fine.

Many transcriptions of Faure, Debussy songs/arias. And, why not some easy Bach vocal transcriptions?

There are the Raph/Telemann arrangements of the 12 Flute Fantasies. Some are easier than others, and some are easier with an F/trigger. Some movements are very beautiful and don't need an F horn at all.

Most of the French contest pieces would be very appropriate on a small bore horn. The French players used small bore instruments in their orchestras throughout the 19th and early 20th century when many other places were moving towards medium bore and large bore horns. Also, some others have mentioned the Pryor solos and the other early 20th century band solos. The Hindemith Sonate and the Sulek might not translate as well as these others.

Jim Scott

Sammy Nestico ‘s Reflective Mood sounds great on a small bore. I played it with my community band a few years ago on a 6H.

I remember these because I played them on a small bore, but many more exist.

* N. Rimskij-Korsakov trombone concerto
* G.C Wagenseil trombone concerto
* Lars-Erik Larsson Concertino
* C.M von Weber Romance
* Saint-Saens Cavatine
* Erland von Koch monologue (solo piece)

/Tom

Didn't the Korsakov have a written Eb below the staff?

harrisonreed wrote: ↑Wed Jan 17, 2024 5:36 am Didn't the Korsakov have a written Eb below the staff?

I don’t see one outside of the suggested cadenza in the edition I have at hand.

bitbckt wrote: ↑Wed Jan 17, 2024 5:59 am

harrisonreed wrote: ↑Wed Jan 17, 2024 5:36 am Didn't the Korsakov have a written Eb below the staff?

I don’t see one outside of the suggested cadenza in the edition I have at hand.

Yeah, good point, even the IMSLP score is only from 1950 ...

I wonder how far back that cadenza goes.

Trombone players have been making falset tones probably since the 1460s. Falset Eb in approximately 4th position is usually a pretty strong note that could easily be interpolated into a solo; especially if it's not a long held note or very loud.

I once played Defaye Deux Danses on a 24h I think to good effect. French jazz sort of piece with a high F. Very beautiful. First movement mostly legato, second movement more rhythmic.

harrisonreed wrote: ↑Wed Jan 17, 2024 6:18 am

bitbckt wrote: ↑Wed Jan 17, 2024 5:59 am I don’t see one outside of the suggested cadenza in the edition I have at hand.

Yeah, good point, even the IMSLP score is only from 1950 ...

I wonder how far back that cadenza goes.

BGuttman wrote: ↑Wed Jan 17, 2024 6:34 am Trombone players have been making falset tones probably since the 1460s. Falset Eb in approximately 4th position is usually a pretty strong note that could easily be interpolated into a solo; especially if it's not a long held note or very loud.

AFAIK Russians used and made German-style trombones. By 1877 I would assume a Bb/F instrument with a wide ~9 in bell (narrow or wide bore, those usually always have a big, very flared bell, not like a modern small bore).

There is no "ad lib" indication on the second cadenza (unlike the first one), it's quite long and elaborate, and it has composed accompaniment, so I've always understood it as not a mere suggestion but actually a composed recitativo section. And even if seen as a suggestion, I see no reason to think it is editorial and not original, given that it's accompanied. Here the Eb is indeed a long held note, and one that the band plays a hit against. You can fake an Eb, sure, sure, but doubt Rimsky Korsakov would have written that long accompanied Eb if he didn't assume a Bb/F instrument would be used. A lot of the lines in the piece are also completely unproblematic and idiomatic with an F attachement but awkward and uselessly difficult without. To me it is quite clear from the writing that Bb/F was intended.

That's not to say it can't or shouldn't be played on a small-bore (or even a straight small bore).

That’s right, thanks for the correction. I went back and looked at the accompaniment to confirm. I’ll blame lack of coffee for the oversight this morning.

It even goes to a D below the staff I think. If it's original, then yeah it's definitely for Bb/F.

Just like the Wagenseil is definitely for Bb tenor. Because of the trills. I'll see myself to the door. Actually, since it probably was for Bb tenor, the Wagenseil would probably fit the bill for the OP.

As suggested above, all the Paris Conservatoire solos (Guilmant, Gaubert, Stojowski, Saint-Saens, Ropartz, Barat, Bozza, etc), some of which, especially the early ones, are not well-known but available in recent editions – for example there is one by Gounod that is basically never played.

Otherwise, any repertoire from before the 1800s basically works on small bore, with or without valve. There's a lot of chamber music specifically with trombone: Viennese arias for solo voice and solo trombone, many sonatas and canzonas a2, a3 or a4 for one trombone, one or two violins, sometimes with a bassoon or bowed string instrument. Also our first solo piece for tenor trombone, Cesare's La Hieronyma.

harrisonreed wrote: ↑Wed Jan 17, 2024 2:57 pm It even goes to a D below the staff I think. If it's original, then yeah it's definitely for Bb/F.

Just like the Wagenseil is definitely for Bb tenor. Because of the trills. I'll see myself to the door. Actually, since it probably was for Bb tenor, the Wagenseil would probably fit the bill for the OP.

Yes I think Wagenseil was probably written for tenor (not so much because of the trills in particular as because of the overall range when compared to other repertoire of the time), although it works quite well on modern alto. Possibly Albrechtsberger too, although I think that takes a very very strong player to pull off. I have more reservations about the L. Mozart and M. Haydn solos.

In college I got disqualified on a solo competition because I played the Wagenseil on tenor.

LeTromboniste wrote: ↑Wed Jan 17, 2024 3:10 pm As suggested above, all the Paris Conservatoire solos (Guilmant, Gaubert, Stojowski, Saint-Saens, Ropartz, Barat, Bozza, etc), some of which, especially the early ones, are not well-known but available in recent editions – for example there is one by Gounod that is basically never played.

Otherwise, any repertoire from before the 1800s basically works on small bore, with or without valve. There's a lot of chamber music specifically with trombone: Viennese arias for solo voice and solo trombone, many sonatas and canzonas a2, a3 or a4 for one trombone, one or two violins, sometimes with a bassoon or bowed string instrument. Also our first solo piece for tenor trombone, Cesare's La Hieronyma.

harrisonreed wrote: ↑Wed Jan 17, 2024 2:57 pm It even goes to a D below the staff I think. If it's original, then yeah it's definitely for Bb/F.

Just like the Wagenseil is definitely for Bb tenor. Because of the trills. I'll see myself to the door. Actually, since it probably was for Bb tenor, the Wagenseil would probably fit the bill for the OP.

Yes I think Wagenseil was probably written for tenor (not so much because of the trills in particular as because of the overall range when compared to other repertoire of the time), although it works quite well on modern alto. Possibly Albrechtsberger too, although I think that takes a very very strong player to pull off. I have more reservations about the L. Mozart and M. Haydn solos.

Once I learned to do the trills by putting the horn into Bb on the Conn 36H, I realized that those trills might be possible on an Eb horn but are far more natural on a Bb horn. Of course the rest of it lays quite well on alto, though.

Doug Elliott wrote: ↑Wed Jan 17, 2024 3:37 pm In college I got disqualified on a solo competition because I played the Wagenseil on tenor.

You needed Maximilien's musicology as an argument!
"Yes I think Wagenseil was probably written for tenor (not so much because of the trills in particular as because of the overall range when compared to other repertoire of the time)"

Your high range is too good, Doug! (Don't need no stinkin' alto.)

Doug Elliott wrote: ↑Wed Jan 17, 2024 3:37 pm In college I got disqualified on a solo competition because I played the Wagenseil on tenor.

That's absolutely ridiculous but doesn't surprise me. Modern classical trombone playing often reaches an absurd level of orthodoxy.

Posaunus wrote: ↑Wed Jan 17, 2024 4:05 pm You needed Maximilien's musicology as an argument!

Better yet, read the articles Howard Weiner wrote on the subject over the years. I don't agree with everything Howard proposes concerning the use (or non-use) of the alto trombone, but it's well researched and he formulates compelling arguments.


But for Wagenseil in any case, it is quite clear that nothing particularly indicates alto, the compass is certainly not higher than the normal range expected of a tenor trombone at the time (or now, for that matter). So much so that the part is not even entirely in alto clef (it goes into tenor clef at least once in the manuscript copies) – not that clefs indicate intended instrument. And yes the trills are all more idiomatic on tenor and somewhat clumsy on alto, especially with historical instruments. I think on modern instruments an alto with a Bb valve for the trills is a very good solution sound-wise, but if someone can play it light enough on a small modern tenor, then I think any orthodoxy that "it's an alto piece" is ill-placed.

hyperbolica wrote: ↑Wed Jan 17, 2024 7:58 am I once played Defaye Deux Danses on a 24h I think to good effect. French jazz sort of piece with a high F.

This would have been a great piece for Tommy Dorsey.

harrisonreed wrote: ↑Wed Jan 17, 2024 5:36 am Didn't the Korsakov have a written Eb below the staff?

Yes, now I remember I played that piece on a King 3B/F and I remember also the cadenza I played had a d in it. (Me bad)

/Tom

Reggieros wrote: ↑Thu Jan 18, 2024 9:07 am An insightful observation on the ability to adapt of French contest pieces for small bore horns, reflecting historical choices. Recognizing variants like as the Pryor solos, while recognizing potential difficulties with the Hindemith Sonate and Sulek, offers vital insight to brass instrument repertoire debate.

Thanks, insightful bot, recognizing your ability to rephrase a sentence

ithinknot wrote: ↑Thu Jan 18, 2024 9:42 am

Reggieros wrote: ↑Thu Jan 18, 2024 9:07 am An insightful observation on the ability to adapt of French contest pieces for small bore horns, reflecting historical choices. Recognizing variants like as the Pryor solos, while recognizing potential difficulties with the Hindemith Sonate and Sulek, offers vital insight to brass instrument repertoire debate.

Thanks, insightful bot, recognizing your ability to rephrase a sentence

Thanks David!

I guess I don't understand why non GPT models are even trying still... Your tech missed the boat dudes.

SteveM wrote: ↑Mon Jan 15, 2024 8:05 pm

tbdana wrote: ↑Mon Jan 15, 2024 7:00 pm All those Arthur Prior pieces were originally played on small bore horns.

Arthur Pryor himself played those pieces on a Holton trombone with .458 bore and 6 1/4" bell.

Someone who plays mostly bass trombone would be uniquely poised to perform an Arthur Pryor piece in a historically informed manner:

His execution set the prairies afire; his vibrating pedal tones rattled
the windows of the Theater and killed the gold fishes and stunned the
canaries all the way out to the packing plant where even the iron gates
trembled.

--review of an Arthur Pryor concert, ca. 1907.

Gordon Langford Rhapsody. Perfect on a small bore.