TromboneChat

What do you folks know about the Shires professional small bore trombones? I've never played one, and there is no place around where I can compare models, so I'm hoping there's some conventional knowledge out there that will help me get started.

I'm probably not interested in the .495 bore Michael Davis model, but I could be interested in the .500 bore Michael Davis+ or Marshall Gilkes models. I'm also interested in the .508 bore models.

Things I like or am looking for:

*I like the lightweight nickel-silver slides.
*I want a nice, warm sound that has a solid core. Nothing too bright or brittle sounding. (My current small bore is a Bach LT16M with the gold brass bell, if that gives an idea of the sound I like.)
*I want a horn that is free-blowing throughout, and has a good upper range. My Bach is kinda stuffy up there.

Which model(s) should I be looking for?

Thanks!

I played both the Gilkes and Davis+ models before getting a custom that is right in-between the two of them. If you like nickel slides, imo you can’t go wrong with the Davis+ trombone. It’s a bigger blow than most other small horns; it almost feels like a small-medium bore trombone rather than a big small horn. It’s certainly possible to achieve a warm sound on it, and it will be easy to achieve a brilliant sound when the time comes. I’d feel comfortable playing it in any setting, from jazz combo, big band, salsa, broadway, or even 2nd trombone in a downsized symphony section (ie Brahms or Mozart).

The biggest difference between the Gilkes and the Davis+ for me is the slide material. I tend to play with a lot of brilliance and the yellow brass slide on the Gilkes horn helps to tame my articulations. It’s really easy to play with warmth on the Gilkes horn and it can handle quite a bit of pushing before the sound lights up. You’ll have to provide the ‘bite’ on this trombone. It’s a bit heavier than the Davis+ because of the standard weight slide and detachable flare as well.

I currently play on a custom that has the Davis+ bell and tuning slide, but a .500-508 dual bore yellow brass slide. I just can’t seem to get along with cut bell trombones or nickel slides, so this was the best of both worlds for me. The Davis+ bell had a ring and projection for me that was undeniably my sound, and the yellow brass slide helps me play with warmth and body on each note as I can usually easily access the brilliant side of any instrument.

Let me know if there is anything else I can answer!

Tried the Davis+ .508 back in 2015, and played it for a while. It's really nice, but missed the valve from my 3BF. What a great playing horn though, especially with the "3" leadpipe.

If you like the Bach 16, which I also had access to at the same time, I'm not sure if you will like the Davis+. They are like two different ends of the spectrum.

The MD + (508 bore) was definitely the best Shires of any size I've played (never played the Gilkes, but I'm sure I'd like that almost as much). With the right mouthpiece and approach you could get away with playing the same horn in pop or legit settings.

If you want something that leans to the pop (brighter) side, the Getzen 3508r would be my other choice. 3508 is lighter with a somewhat bright sound, but can accept a range of mouthpieces/leadpipes to darken the sound a bit. It has the NS slide, very open feel. The light weight along with the open feel and mouthpiece flexibility are just an unstoppable combination for me. The high range is consistent with the rest of the horn. With the 3 leadpipes, it offers a wide range of potential native sounds.

hyperbolica wrote: ↑Wed Jan 03, 2024 11:48 am If you want something that leans to the pop (brighter) side, the Getzen 3508r would be my other choice. 3508 is lighter with a somewhat bright sound, but can accept a range of mouthpieces/leadpipes to darken the sound a bit. It has the NS slide, very open feel. The light weight along with the open feel and mouthpiece flexibility are just an unstoppable combination for me. The high range is consistent with the rest of the horn. With the 3 leadpipes, it offers a wide range of potential native sounds.

As hyperbolica notes, the Getzen 3508Y (yellow brass bell) or 3508R (red brass bell) are superb trombones (0.500"/0.508" dual bore), with super-smooth light weight slides and 3 lead pipes to modify the sound/response, available straight from the factory with excellent build quality, and priced about 25% lower than the Shires models you are considering. Worth checking out.

I’ve owned an MD .495 that played for a few years but never really gelled with. And have now had a Gilkes for about a year and a half, that I love.

However I know this is the lamest advice ever; I’d do anything to try and play any Shires small bore first. To me they are almost the exact opposite of a Bach 16 with gold brass.

I honestly believe the greatest trombone in the world is going to suck if not a good fit for you.

The other option is to buy second hand, then you can try for a while and often sell for a similar price. My recent gear journey has definitely shown a ‘good fit for you’ is way more important than the perceived quality or prestige of the gear.

That said I have 3 Shires and love them

It's a truism to point out that nothing else plays like X, but FWIW that might be especially true of an LT16M(G or otherwise).

I've tried MD/MD+ and Gilkes. The Shires family feel is stronger than any outside comparison. There are King-ish elements in the MD/MD+, but I wouldn't say they really reminded me of any King. I liked the blow of the Gilkes more than the others. You've heard MG - it makes That Sound, that's what he wants, and that stability comes across as almost "small classical" compared to the classic small bore options. They're all nothing like Bachs, and spending that kind of money without trying first...

The development of small Raths began with the Bach design, so there are some similarities. Those overlaps might happily give you some of what you like about Bach in a much more predictable "modernized" package... or you might find that the similarities make the trade-offs less acceptable, and that it would be easier to fall in love with something categorically different.

The Getzens are nice. Played a 3508Y and R back-to-back, and the R seemed like the more balanced package. Absolutely nothing wrong with the Y - they're both excellent instruments with superb slides - but the colors/response/intangibles of the R seemed to have the edge, and would be a safer blind recommendation. (Of course, sample variation could cover some of the above.) The dual bore feel is a matter of taste, as on other designs... personally, I came away from them thinking that I'd probably love a straight .500 Edwards.

Did you resolve your mouthpiece situation? For all the 16M's quirks, a generally stuffy high range isn't one I'd expect.

The only maker of small bores with one piece bells that I am aware of is M&W. I imagine that’s going to be the closest thing you’re going to get to a Bach 16 minus quirks.

The Getzen 3508Y mentioned is probably also going to be close-ish to a Bach. I have a 3508Y bell on my… king frankenhorn 500/525 and it’s great.

If you want to stick to Shires I don’t know what the MD you r MG specs are though I suspect they’re close to type 7 bells. I would probably get a 7YM75 or 7YM775 (I’m not sure the nomenclature for indicating 7.5 or 7.75 inch bells), a their “small” taper small bore tuning slide (.5? I can’t remember) and a 500/508, since that gives you way more leadpipe options and is going to still be in the ballpark of the 16 slide.

tbdana wrote: ↑Wed Jan 03, 2024 10:20 am
I like the lightweight nickel-silver slides.
I want a nice, warm sound that has a solid core. Nothing too bright or brittle sounding. (My current small bore is a Bach LT16M with the gold brass bell, if that gives an idea of the sound I like.)
*I want a horn that is free-blowing throughout, and has a good upper range. My Bach is kinda stuffy up there.
Which model(s) should I be looking for?

The Shires horn that does that for me.....
No artist's endorsement; just ordered by spec.
Model S2GLW 7.75 bell (Light weight, gold brass, unsoldered rim)
Gold brass model 1.5 tuning slide
.500" bore nickel silver hand slide
Kanstul H-6 or W-6 leadpipe. (Still made by others who post here)

My horn was built in 2006, when Steve Shires was running the company.
I don't know if today's horns are the same, following the sale of the company.

Thanks everyone, so far. To clear up one thing, I don't want to buy a horn I haven't played. The problem is that no one here stocks Shires (especially after the sale of the company), but one place will order one for me to try out, and another place carries an occasional one. So I need to know what I should look for specifically and what I should target for them to order. Also, when calling around to other stores I want to know what to inquire about and what would make me interested enough to drive several hours to play one. So this is all great info so far. Thank you.

Not sure about how Eastlake may have changed Shires since they purchased it, but the "old" Shires used to have people who were very good at matching the specs of a trombone to the needs of a player. It couldn't hurt to talk directly to Shires at 508 634 6805 about your preferences, and let them spec out a horn that meets them.

Here are my two Shires; a custom tenor and a regular production alto.

The tenor is 7.75" Sterling Silver, 0.500 bore, Shires's 1.5 tuning slide, with gold brass in crooks and tubing. I asked that the three lead pipes that come with such an order to all be gold brass. The slide is Nickel-Silver with gold brass in the crook.

Before I placed the order, I did much, and long, research on what measurements and materials I'd want, and the outcome is just as expected and desired. I'm a happy camper.

I’ve played the MD+ for the past 8 years and love it. As others have mentioned, it can certainly sit on the medium-small horn side, especially with a more open leadpipe and bigger mouthpiece. For me, it still plays best with the 1.5 leadpipe and typical small horn mouthpieces. It’s super versatile and even over the whole range of the horn, a great all round commercial sound, can hang on lead, but with a fat lower end. For me, it has the right amount of warmth and brilliance while always projecting easily at different dynamics.

I recently got to play the Gilkes horn, and I liked it, nice solid feel and good sound, but it felt heavier and harder to manoeuvre than the MD+, and when I really tried to put some air through it it actually felt a little stuffier and harder to project. It may also be to do with the Gilkes mouthpiece, which is VERY deep. Overall, I wouldn’t choose it over my MD+, but I can see both horns being solid choices for lots of players.

I’d be really keen to try some of the other custom options and bell and slide materials, but it’s hard to do here in Australia. I do recall a comment from Ben Griffen (he was the Shires Trombone guru in the past), that he very much liked the smaller bell of the standard MD, paired with the MD+ .508 slide, and it played like what he wished the Bach 16 played like.

I’d look more towards Rath if you want something with similar characteristics to your Bach but which is simply easier to play and offers some customization. I was able to try some Raths and the Shires MG in a shop last month and I was surprised by how much I didn’t enjoy the shires. It felt weirdly stuffy, reminded me of some of the things I don’t enjoy about Kings. My old 2B somehow felt more open. Had a really nice weight to it which I personally don’t want but I can imagine people really loving.

I haven’t tried the MD models but I’ve heard only great things. It comes down to feel, and if you enjoy the feel of your Bach and a lightweight slide then you might gel more with Rath. I’ve loved the feeling of small bore bachs I’ve tried and the Rath just felt like everything I liked about those instruments rolled into one without the quirks.

My Shires small bore was purchased about 2001/2002. Very easy to play, nice open high range. 1YM bell, I think 8-inch. #2 tuning slide, T00NLW bell - that's .500 bore, nickel lightweight slide. A few years ago I was actually finding the horn to be too open so I switched to a #1.5 tuning slide. I don't use it much anymore due to mostly playing bass now in big bands, but I don't want to sell the horn either because it's too good.

It might be too open for the normal small bore player. Steve Shires had described his small bores at the time as "Little horns for people who like big horns."

JeffBone44 wrote: ↑Fri Jan 05, 2024 9:59 am My Shires small bore was purchased about 2001/2002. Very easy to play, nice open high range. 1YM bell, I think 8-inch. #2 tuning slide, T00NLW bell - that's .500 bore, nickel lightweight slide. A few years ago I was actually finding the horn to be too open so I switched to a #1.5 tuning slide. I don't use it much anymore due to mostly playing bass now in big bands, but I don't want to sell the horn either because it's too good.

It might be too open for the normal small bore player. Steve Shires had described his small bores at the time as "Little horns for people who like big horns."

What do you mean by "too open"? I didn't think there was such a thing. LOL! What does "too open" do?

I still haven't found any Shires small bores in this area. But yesterday I managed to play some Getzens and Kings, and none of them came close to what I have, so... Still hoping to find Shires to try. No Raths around here anywhere.

A suggestion for trying out gear - an event like the ITF or ATW (Washington, DC) is a great way to try multiple instruments. The try-out spaces are noisy, but you can find some less busy times to get in some time on the horns you're interested in. The people staffing the exhibits are usually very knowledgeable about the horns, and can help steer you towards the options that will get you closer to what you're looking for.

Jim Scott

tbdana wrote: ↑Fri Jan 05, 2024 10:20 am

JeffBone44 wrote: ↑Fri Jan 05, 2024 9:59 am My Shires small bore was purchased about 2001/2002. Very easy to play, nice open high range. 1YM bell, I think 8-inch. #2 tuning slide, T00NLW bell - that's .500 bore, nickel lightweight slide. A few years ago I was actually finding the horn to be too open so I switched to a #1.5 tuning slide. I don't use it much anymore due to mostly playing bass now in big bands, but I don't want to sell the horn either because it's too good.

It might be too open for the normal small bore player. Steve Shires had described his small bores at the time as "Little horns for people who like big horns."

What do you mean by "too open"? I didn't think there was such a thing. LOL! What does "too open" do?

I think some players like resistance, and they wouldn't want their small bores to feel like medium or large bores.

JeffBone44 wrote: ↑Fri Jan 05, 2024 12:30 pm

tbdana wrote: ↑Fri Jan 05, 2024 10:20 am

What do you mean by "too open"? I didn't think there was such a thing. LOL! What does "too open" do?

I think some players like resistance, and they wouldn't want their small bores to feel like medium or large bores.

Ah. Cool. Thanks. I like as open a feel as I can get. I don't like the feeling of working against the horn. So "too open" probably isn't an issue for me.

tbdana wrote: ↑Fri Jan 05, 2024 12:49 pm

JeffBone44 wrote: ↑Fri Jan 05, 2024 12:30 pm

I think some players like resistance, and they wouldn't want their small bores to feel like medium or large bores.

Ah. Cool. Thanks. I like as open a feel as I can get. I don't like the feeling of working against the horn. So "too open" probably isn't an issue for me.

You'd probably love my horn or something similar then. Very open all throughout. Very versatile and colorful. Can sound warm and velvety for ballads, and can sizzle on lead if you need that style too.

Most free blowing small bore horn I’ve played is a Getzen 3508R with a #3 Leadpipe, which is the one I sold to hyperbolica a while back.

A Yamaha 891Z I demoed in the past also had an open blow but I personally didn’t like the sound.

I briefly had a Rath R4F that I sold for a friend and that was really freeblowing. Reminded me of a Bach as well but easier to play and less quirks, so you may want to consider a Rath R1 (.500/.510 Dual), Rath R10 (.500), or Rath R2 (.510).

I’ve also heard great things about the Martin Urbie Green if you can find one. Keith Hilson of Schmitt Trombone Shop has a video of one. He described it as really lightweight and warm, but with an unexpectedly solid core for its size and weight. But I haven’t personally tried it so take that with a grain of salt.

King 3B+ is also great but that’s a medium bore.

"too open" can feel like fighting against the horn, too.

tbdana wrote: ↑Fri Jan 05, 2024 12:49 pm I like as open a feel as I can get.

... which isn't the same as the horn being as open as it can get.

In the end, there's only Efficient and Not. Optimal resistance in the right places for the individual gets them as close as possible to "getting something for free"."Too tight" and "too open" boil down to the same thing: a lousy effort-to-output ratio.

OompaLoompia wrote: ↑Fri Jan 05, 2024 3:10 pm I’ve also heard great things about the Martin Urbie Green if you can find one. Keith Hilson of Schmitt Trombone Shop has a video of one. He described it as really lightweight and warm, but with an unexpectedly solid core for its size and weight. But I haven’t personally tried it so take that with a grain of salt.

That's all true especially if the direct comparison is with Kings, and it's a great design, but coming from an LT16M it's going to feel quite a bit tighter, and we're still talking about a lightweight, unsoldered 2pc bell... if you're hung up on Bach-grade tonal chonk, this isn't it.

If you are near Sacramento the California Music Educators Association conference is January 31 – February 4. If it is like TMEA in Texas there will be exhibitors there with instruments to try. TMEA always has Edwards/Getzen, Shires, Conn, Bach, Schilke/Greenhoe, Butler, Adams, Thein and sometimes M&W and others I can't remember. You could contact the CMEA people and find out what instrument exhibitors will be there.

ithinknot wrote: ↑Fri Jan 05, 2024 5:17 pm

tbdana wrote: ↑Fri Jan 05, 2024 12:49 pm I like as open a feel as I can get.

... which isn't the same as the horn being as open as it can get.

In the end, there's only Efficient and Not. Optimal resistance in the right places for the individual gets them as close as possible to "getting something for free"."Too tight" and "too open" boil down to the same thing: a lousy effort-to-output ratio.

OompaLoompia wrote: ↑Fri Jan 05, 2024 3:10 pm I’ve also heard great things about the Martin Urbie Green if you can find one. Keith Hilson of Schmitt Trombone Shop has a video of one. He described it as really lightweight and warm, but with an unexpectedly solid core for its size and weight. But I haven’t personally tried it so take that with a grain of salt.

That's all true especially if the direct comparison is with Kings, and it's a great design, but coming from an LT16M it's going to feel quite a bit tighter, and we're still talking about a lightweight, unsoldered 2pc bell... if you're hung up on Bach-grade tonal chonk, this isn't it.

Thank you for the clarification!

JeffBone44 wrote: ↑Fri Jan 05, 2024 1:30 pm

tbdana wrote: ↑Fri Jan 05, 2024 12:49 pm

Ah. Cool. Thanks. I like as open a feel as I can get. I don't like the feeling of working against the horn. So "too open" probably isn't an issue for me.

You'd probably love my horn or something similar then. Very open all throughout. Very versatile and colorful. Can sound warm and velvety for ballads, and can sizzle on lead if you need that style too.

That sounds perfect. Give it to me please!

There must be some limiting factor or else you’d play a 562/578 for everything. I’ve used mine for things most people don’t use it for but definitely like the focus smaller bores give

tbdana wrote: ↑Fri Jan 05, 2024 12:49 pm

JeffBone44 wrote: ↑Fri Jan 05, 2024 12:30 pm

I think some players like resistance, and they wouldn't want their small bores to feel like medium or large bores.

Ah. Cool. Thanks. I like as open a feel as I can get. I don't like the feeling of working against the horn. So "too open" probably isn't an issue for me.

Yet the Bach 16M seems to be one of the tightest, stuffiest small bores on the market.

harrisonreed wrote: ↑Sat Jan 06, 2024 6:23 am

tbdana wrote: ↑Fri Jan 05, 2024 12:49 pm

Ah. Cool. Thanks. I like as open a feel as I can get. I don't like the feeling of working against the horn. So "too open" probably isn't an issue for me.

Yet the Bach 16M seems to be one of the tightest, stuffiest small bores on the market.

I disagree with your assessment.

Stuffy feel or tightness comes from not resonating properly. It can come from being too small, too big, badly matched parts, leaks, badly matched mouthpiece, the player not adjusting to the horn's needs, etc etc etc.

Open feel comes from full resonance which creates maximum resistance but feels "open" because it responds well.

Doug Elliott wrote: ↑Sat Jan 06, 2024 10:16 am Stuffy feel or tightness comes from not resonating properly. It can come from being too small, too big, badly matched parts, leaks, badly matched mouthpiece, the player not adjusting to the horn's needs, etc etc etc.

Open feel comes from full resonance which creates maximum resistance but feels "open" because it responds well.

This.

Sometimes "feeling open" and having large dimensions do not coincide, and it often has to do with that particular player. Sometimes when I was doing fittings at Shires we would get a player asking for "more open, more open" and run out of bigger to give them. Then we would sometimes go radically smaller, usually at the leadpipe, and they would be completely happy.

My theory is that getting the right resistance in the right place allows the player to relax. Not enough resistance up front can cause them to subconsciously tighten up. I find this for myself at times.

This is not a universal truth. Some players really do best with an instrument that is wide open at the front.

GabrielRice wrote: ↑Sat Jan 06, 2024 10:40 am
My theory is that getting the right resistance in the right place allows the player to relax. Not enough resistance up front can cause them to subconsciously tighten up. I find this for myself at times.

This is not a universal truth. Some players really do best with an instrument that is wide open at the front.

My theory would be that players requiring more resistance are able to relax and tune the internal column between the oral cavity and the diaphragm. They are “threading a needle.” This is where they find their optimum efficiency. Players requiring no (added) resistance are saturating the bore with a dense cross section of air that no longer “threads the needle” but still can effect resonance in a horn at loud and soft dynamics, and lighting off the partials to sound good. This may be genetics or practice or both. This player is still efficient. Resistance gets in their way. Poor construction and residual stresses may inhibit realization of a horn’s capability.

tbdana wrote: ↑Sat Jan 06, 2024 8:53 am

harrisonreed wrote: ↑Sat Jan 06, 2024 6:23 am

Yet the Bach 16M seems to be one of the tightest, stuffiest small bores on the market.

I disagree with your assessment.

tbdana wrote: ↑Wed Jan 03, 2024 10:20 am
*I want a horn that is free-blowing throughout, and has a good upper range. My Bach is kinda stuffy up there.

Maybe just the degree of my assessment? Everyone interprets horns differently, and you and I are on the same page with the upper register on the 16M. For me, assessing a small bore, of course I would like every register to be nice and "open", but for the money register to be stuffy, well ...