TromboneChat

I'm not sure if it's me, or the horns but has Shires QC gone down? I playtested a TBAALESSI horn and loved it, wanted to buy it but it was sold to someone else already so I had the shop order one. A few weeks later it arrived and I took it home (my fault for not putting it through its paces in the shop but I was excited). Once I got home I found out very quickly that there was a ringing/vibration playing A natural above the staff. I lubed everything that moved, and tightened everything, and still no luck. I found when removing the F attachment tuning slide the vibration went away so I made sure to over-grease the tuning slide but that had no effect on the issue. I took a rawhide hammer and tapped on all the joints to check for loose solder, I also took a multimeter out and checked continuity across the braces, everything was fine. I took the horn back and the tech did everything I did and couldn't find the issue either, so it was sent back to Shires. Wanting a new horn, I went to the playroom and started playing several different horns. I played Shires TBSOLO, Vintage New York, and a TBQALESSI and all had issues. The SOLO and TBQALESSI had a ringing as well, the New York's F attachment was so out of tune that even with the tuning slide all the way in and in first position everything was very flat. I had the tech come to play the horns to double check and he had the same problems. A few other people in the shop played them and same issues.

Was that just a run of bad horns or has anyone else experienced any of these issues? At first I was worried it was me but after several others played the horns and found the same issues, I started leaning towards a QC problem. I also picked up several Bach horns and didn't have any of those issues. I ended up getting a Bach 42LTAG with a satin finish bell instead.

I'm not surprised.

Burgerbob wrote: ↑Wed Jan 03, 2024 9:12 am I'm not surprised.

Why would you say that?

Q series, massive expansion, huge quantities of horns: it adds up to problems like this. And the QC has been suspect there for longer, there's a big name college professor that moved away from Shires after too many of his students were sent defective horns.

Burgerbob wrote: ↑Wed Jan 03, 2024 9:44 am Q series, massive expansion, huge quantities of horns: it adds up to problems like this. And the QC has been suspect there for longer, there's a big name college professor that moved away from Shires after too many of his students were sent defective horns.

The Q series I knew were subject to issues just based on how their made, however I was really hoping the upper tier of horns would be different. The TBSOLO, and TBVNY were kind of a shocker to me. I'm curious if those horns are put through the same over seas manufacturing as the Q series. I was really expecting the Alessi Custom to be different though.

They're all made at the US factory, and go through US QC as far as I know- but if you're making huge quantities of horns, some things are going to slip through the cracks. Ask Bach!

I got one maybe 7 years ago that I sent back due to a really obvious flaw in the bell. Never ordered another. The best Shires are the smaller bore horns. If I had to get a new 547 I'd look at Edwards and Getzen (if I couldn't find an M&W).

They've lost a number of skilled employees over the past couple years, and have a few more whose feet are already out the door. They're struggling to produce enough instruments. They're moving to more and more imported components, possibly including selling Eastman-built Axial valve sections as Custom Series. They've brought on a new production manager who is "shaking things up."

I wouldn't count on it getting any better...

I had a few problems with new custom line valve sections recently and I can say that quality control is down. I get that they are trying to keep their margins and what not, but the response and experience was so poor that I don’t plan on going back for anymore parts or horns. The problem is it is like not getting a call for a gig, you don’t know when you don’t get the call (or sale in this case).

I’ve thought about whether or not to say something here. I know multiple people who have gotten new shires with misaligned slides and poor solder assembly on multiple joints of the valve section. And more than one person whose slide has fallen apart in their hands! One of those was a slide from the 90s (and it now plays great btw)

When I have bought used shires parts in the parts I’ve been pretty mindful of if they were recent or not. It’s just a lot safer of a blind buy that way. That’s worked out well in my experience, but of course I’m sure there are others who experiences differ

Let's not confuse the Shires Q with the Shires Custom line.

Q series horns are progressively getting better. Like with any manufacturer there are going to be some issues that may be pinned down to a batch of horns or some anomalies that would maybe slip pass QC. For horns that are built in China they're pretty damned good and are fairly consistent. And because of QC the newer batches are better because issues are getting ferreted out.

The Q30YR & Q30YA are the flagship .547 models of the Q line. Those play more consistently that any Bach 42 I've tried and are a good bang for your buck. The QAlessi is essentially an 88H with gold brass tuning crooks. The gold brass crooks i think prevent the horn from speaking clearly imo. I have played some great QAlessi's, but i think demand and the 2020 shutdown have left earlier batches be the only examples of the Alessi model out in the wild.

Shires Custom is all made in Boston by hand. And when you make something by hand there's going to be some inconsistencies. Not to make an excuse if an obvious defect slips by QC, but Shires Custom horns are all modular so the customer can make a horn tailored to their liking. And the Q's are built to Custom series specs to allow a Q owner to upgrade Q components with Custom components, something you can't do with Eastman horns out of box.

Eastman horns are also getting better. I have played some fantastic Eastman tenor and bass bones.

All in all, rest assured there is a QC process that probably gets revamped or updated to tackle any issues that come from the factory. And Shires offers a warranty on all of their horns so if you have an issues Shires will take care of it.

Sheve Shires is making bones and horns under the Stephens name now if you want the real thing.

The Alessi shires horn (both kinds) is not like an 88H. It might be, if the 88H had completely different proportions, a wide slide, a brass slide crook, and a thin yellow brass unsoldered bell. But just about everything between the two horn designs is different, especially the proportions and radii.

Although ... Maybe it now suffers from similar QC? Maybe they are alike?

I'm surprised about this thread though. I've never had any issues with Shires horns, and while I've never owned one, I've tried a lot. Best slides I've ever tried.

I'll get the popcorn!!!!

WGWTR180 wrote: ↑Mon Jan 08, 2024 6:51 am I'll get the popcorn!!!!

Nah, I don't think anyone is digging their heels in. I'm not anyways. I'm just surprised. If it's all true, it's really sad. Hopefully it's just some middle ground, and there was a bad run.

Also, I would love for there to be a company run by someone named "Sheve Shires", ripping off designs. You pay $7k, and when you look at the engraving... That made my day Mike!

harrisonreed wrote: ↑Mon Jan 08, 2024 6:54 am Also, I would love for there to be a company run by someone named "Sheve Shires", ripping off designs. You pay $7k, and when you look at the engraving... That made my day Mike!

https://www.stephenshorns.com/

GabrielRice wrote: ↑Mon Jan 08, 2024 7:46 am

harrisonreed wrote: ↑Mon Jan 08, 2024 6:54 am Also, I would love for there to be a company run by someone named "Sheve Shires", ripping off designs. You pay $7k, and when you look at the engraving... That made my day Mike!

https://www.stephenshorns.com/

Thanks Gabe, I'm tracking that Steve is still in business. Just the typo on his name was classic. I still haven't tried any of his new horns, how are they?

They're great.

harrisonreed wrote: ↑Mon Jan 08, 2024 6:54 am

WGWTR180 wrote: ↑Mon Jan 08, 2024 6:51 am I'll get the popcorn!!!!

Nah, I don't think anyone is digging their heels in. I'm not anyways. I'm just surprised. If it's all true, it's really sad. Hopefully it's just some middle ground, and there was a bad run.

Also, I would love for there to be a company run by someone named "Sheve Shires", ripping off designs. You pay $7k, and when you look at the engraving... That made my day Mike!

No I didn't mean that. I'm just waiting for the usual "China" comments, etc.... And FWIW there are very few Shires bells from any generation that do not suffer from acid bleed on the bells. doesn't really change the way the instrument plays but it is a prep process shortcoming.

GabrielRice wrote: ↑Mon Jan 08, 2024 7:52 am They're great.

Gabe -
Is Steve making a bass yet? Or just tenors?

ScottZigler wrote: ↑Mon Jan 08, 2024 9:19 am

GabrielRice wrote: ↑Mon Jan 08, 2024 7:52 am They're great.

Gabe -
Is Steve making a bass yet? Or just tenors?

Yes he is!! Well almost.

He made one bass so far. I've tooted on it...not designed for me, but it plays great and is beautifully put together. He's tooling up to be able to offer more options.

harrisonreed wrote: ↑Mon Jan 08, 2024 5:10 am The Alessi shires horn (both kinds) is not like an 88H. It might be, if the 88H had completely different proportions, a wide slide, a brass slide crook, and a thin yellow brass unsoldered bell. But just about everything between the two horn designs is different, especially the proportions and radii.

Although ... Maybe it now suffers from similar QC? Maybe they are alike?

I'm surprised about this thread though. I've never had any issues with Shires horns, and while I've never owned one, I've tried a lot. Best slides I've ever tried.

Over simplified comparison on my part. Overall there are obvious differences between the 88H and QALESSI that make it a bit apples and oranges. The good sounding QALESSI horns I've played have felt like my Elkhart Conns more than some modern Conns have. I think if there were parts made specifically for the Alessi instead of the horn being cobbled together from existing parts then i think my original statement might hold truer.

Alessi was more of a Bach guy than a Conn guy, wasn’t he? I’m thinking about the Montreal days.

Bach5G wrote: ↑Mon Jan 08, 2024 3:06 pm Alessi was more of a Bach guy than a Conn guy, wasn’t he? I’m thinking about the Montreal days.

I don't think that Joe Alessi was ever a "Conn guy!"

Bach5G wrote: ↑Mon Jan 08, 2024 3:06 pm Alessi was more of a Bach guy than a Conn guy, wasn’t he? I’m thinking about the Montreal days.

He was, and reportedly the Edwards Alessi model was designed in part to capture some of the special qualities of Glenn Dodson's Bach 42 that came into Joe's possession.

However, there are design elements of both of his signature models, as well as the Edwards Joe played previously - that are quite different from a Bach, the biggest being the 2-piece bell with unsoldered rim, which is like a classic Conn, not a Bach.

From the interview they did at Edwards, I think the "Bach" inspiration was specifically out of a particular slide he had, and more specifically the crook.

I think a lot of the rest of that design was already coming out of the previous Edwards gear he was using for over a decade prior. You can't sell Christan and Edwards short.