TromboneChat

Question for those of you that versed in Sackbut.
I have 2 older Olds Ambassadors that I`m going to be turning into Hackbuts.
What is the proper bell diameter?

Egger lists their bell diameters between 98 mm/3.8” to 110 mm/4.3”, depending on the model.

FWIW, trimming the bell flair will work better if you’re able to remove it from the braces. Just be aware that when fully re-assembled, the bell is now in about 2 1/2 position. Oftentimes, intonation is affected too: the partials can get wonky.

No offense, just curious.
Why?

Happy holidays!

I found one good use for my hackbut. I was playing a High School musical with the usual lousy micing for the singers. The lack of a bell reduced the volume of my playing enabling the cast to be heard over the (at least my) music.

There was no way I could sound like a real sackbut with that thing, although I got closer using my 1915 King slide and an old mouthpiece with no curvature between the cup and the aperture.

SamBTbrn wrote: ↑Tue Dec 26, 2023 9:20 am No offense, just curious.
Why?

Happy holidays!

I agree, why?


A sackbut is about so much more than bell diameter. When you cut the bell off of an Olds Amabassador, what you'll get is nothing else than a quieter Olds Amabassador (probably less in-tune, and with a 2nd position bell). If your goal is to have a quieter Olds Ambassador for a purpose like was suggested in the previous post, then go for it. Otherwise this is not going to be a usable instrument in any remotely serious (professional or amateur) early music context.

The Trombone Quartet I play with has an "Informative" part to every performance that we do.
I talk about each piece, we have a piece we do where we use all the different mutes and show the audience what they are and how they sound. Talk about the Alto, tenor and Bass trombones
I thought it would be a nice part of the show to let the audience hear the difference between a piece played on Modern Trombones and then played on the Sackbut/Hackbuts.
I know that there is way more to a sackbut than just cutting the bell off, but to the average Joe in the audience there will be a difference in sound.
That is why.
I didn`t mean to get anyone riled up

I got my hackbut to try out the New York Renaissance Ensemble style of playing (they used cut bell instruments, but that was some 50 years ago). It was immediately apparent that the cut bell Holton Collegiate bore no resemblance to a sackbut, although I made it closer by using the slide from my 1915 King Solo. Still, with no renaissance brass ensemble nearby I had no reason to get a real sackbut. The discovery of the one use I was actually able to put it to was entirely by accident.

dukesboneman wrote: ↑Wed Dec 27, 2023 8:15 am The Trombone Quartet I play with has an "Informative" part to every performance that we do.
I talk about each piece, we have a piece we do where we use all the different mutes and show the audience what they are and how they sound. Talk about the Alto, tenor and Bass trombones
I thought it would be a nice part of the show to let the audience hear the difference between a piece played on Modern Trombones and then played on the Sackbut/Hackbuts.
I know that there is way more to a sackbut than just cutting the bell off, but to the average Joe in the audience there will be a difference in sound.
That is why.
I didn`t mean to get anyone riled up

I see! Not riled up, just looking to understand the goal so that I see how I can be helpful.

I would say in this case, it will indeed sound different, but just to manage expectations, you're not giving them modern trombone vs sackbut so much as modern trombone vs lesser quality, student model, hacked-off modern trombone, a sound which they will likely encounter nowhere else. I understand and appreciate the intention, but, without any judgement, I would encourage you to reflect on whether what you plan to do leads to fulfilling your informative goal or not. Is offering a non-informed audience this comparison between modern trombone and "sackbut" (using a cut-off modern student trombone with I assume a modern mouthpiece and a modern approach to playing) really likely to make the audience more informed, or isn't it rather more likely to actually make them less informed (or misinformed)?

That's debatable. But I think many of us can recall first thinking that sackbuts sound awful precisely because of being first exposed to it in a manner resembling that. I don't think it does the audience much of a service, and it certainly doesn't do any service to those of us who devote ourselves to historical instruments.


I would say, go ahead and cut these bells if you want to make an informative point, but how about presenting it instead as "here's a demonstration of what effect the bell flare (or lack of flare) has on the sound of a trombone"?
Now that I would think is actually very informative, because it gives insight into how our instruments work, that the bell has little to no impact on the basic sound production and functionality of the instrument (which I suspect would surprise a lot of audience members) but a big effect on the way the sound carries to the audience. Even better would be to use a screw-bell instrument with and without flare but your original idea is a good substitute for it. I just personally would leave any references to sackbuts out of it because that's just opening a huge can of worms.

dukesboneman wrote: ↑Wed Dec 27, 2023 8:15 am The Trombone Quartet I play with has an "Informative" part to every performance that we do.
I talk about each piece, we have a piece we do where we use all the different mutes and show the audience what they are and how they sound. Talk about the Alto, tenor and Bass trombones
I thought it would be a nice part of the show to let the audience hear the difference between a piece played on Modern Trombones and then played on the Sackbut/Hackbuts.
I know that there is way more to a sackbut than just cutting the bell off, but to the average Joe in the audience there will be a difference in sound.
That is why.
I didn`t mean to get anyone riled up

Hey Dukesboneman,

Great idea for the public at your concerts!
If you were cutting the bells yourself then I would understand that it's more cost effective, but if you were having the work done at a shop and the edge of the new bell made safe with soldered edging etc, then it might cost you a few hundred $. It is possible to buy a 2nd hand "old copy" of a sackbut for under $1000 which maybe would better achieve what you are aiming to do?

If you live in America, brassark has a Richard Seraphinoff alto sackbut for $800 and a Finke Bass sackbut in F for $700. Great value for money for getting into historischal instruments and for the type of concert programing it sounds like you want to do.

If you are in Europe then the Nartis sackbuts are super cheap new, or the ones from Wessex brass. Also on the German Kleinanzeigen there are often Finke and Monke "old replicas" for sale for a couple of hundred Euros.

I hope this helps a little. Though not exactly the answer to your question you were after.
Good luck!

I also have a Finke tenor with a valve... none of these budget sackbuts are at the same level as a proper sorted sackbut based on a historical example... but they will be more convincing than a cut off Olds and won't break the bank. Not sure if its also been mentioned, but a period designed mouthpiece also goes a long way in creating a more "sackbut" sound. My 2cents

Giardinelli sold a cheap sackbut replica years ago, probably made by Finke. They were far inferior to the more expensive hand-made European brands, but if you can find one it would probably suit your needs and still be an improvement over a cut-down student horn.

I did one with an Ambassador as part of an undergraduate thesis. I cut the bell, added an extension to fix the pitch, busted the venturi with a ball bearing, and used a reproduction mouthpiece. I remember buffing the bell to a much thinner gauge too. I later had the opportunity to compare it to instruments from Collier, Finke, Egger (and a few others I can’t remember at the moment), and it was close. Really really close. Not close enough that I’d sell my Egger for it (although I did sell my Egger for an Elkhart Conn), but close enough that it was worth the trip to get into some of the nuances of historical performance.

You’ll never get there on a plastic recorder either, but you’ll get much closer with a plastic recorder than no recorder at all. Just food for thought.

Mamaposaune wrote: ↑Tue Jan 02, 2024 7:45 am Giardinelli sold a cheap sackbut replica years ago, probably made by Finke. They were far inferior to the more expensive hand-made European brands, but if you can find one it would probably suit your needs and still be an improvement over a cut-down student horn.

I had one of those around 1980 - it was a horrible instrument to play. The slide was so bad that I could barely play it.