TromboneChat

Posted: **Wed Dec 20, 2023 12:54 am**

I currently have two mouthpieces, a HammondDesign 19bl and a HammondDesign 21bl (old imprint).
However, the 21bl mouthpiece is too much for me to use and overall lacks stability, so I'm thinking of giving it away and buying a new mouthpiece to replace it.

So I am looking for a mouthpiece with an inner diameter of about 28mm (1.10inch) to 29mm (1.14inch) and a relatively thick rim.
Do you have any good ideas?
I'm planning to go and try out mouthpieces and would like to get an idea of some before I go.
Any information on that would be very welcome.

Thanks

Posted: **Wed Dec 20, 2023 4:13 am**

I’m normally not a fan of thicker rims but I have a Long Island brass piece that is superb that’s around that size and is pretty thick rimmed. I got acrillic thinking it would be Dinklage to lexan but it’s a little sticky or I’d probably use it more. Actually reminds me I need to look into ordering one in silver plated brass…

Doug also obviously has his “w” thickness so an LB110W would probably fit the bill

Posted: **Wed Dec 20, 2023 5:57 am**

Custom or modular mouthpieces such as Doug Elliott or seemingly Long Island Brass could be a way to go.
Also some others such as Klier actually offer adaption of their standard offers for reasonable costs.

Some Ferguson/Hornguys mouthpieces might fit (Ferguson L?). Also my own MST STUDIO mouthpieces partly go in that direction. You could look at the R N model. However the (official) inner diameter is a bit smaller than your stated range.

Posted: **Wed Dec 20, 2023 6:46 am**

You should at least give Doug Elliott's pieces a look. For me, that size range you specify is quite broad. I currently have DE rims for my "Large Bass" mouthpiece of 1.10, 1.12, and 1.14. I might use the 1.10 if I were using the horn to play primarily tenor parts or for extra "zip" in the mid-range. The 1.12 has been working well for me for some time. But I've moved to the 1.14 recently for enhanced (valve) pedal range. Those differences of 0.02" -- at least for me -- have a surprising effect. I've had similar effects on my euph with rims of 1.04", 1.05", and 1.06". After not playing euph for several years, I ended up starting with the 1.04 (eased the high range), and then finally getting back to the 1.06" as my most comfortable size and best for my entire range. Doug provides rims in both "narrow" (N) and "Standard" widths, and in metal (silver or gold) or Lexan. I'm using the Lexan ones.

Also, don't overlook the effects of different backbores.

Posted: **Wed Dec 20, 2023 6:58 am**

All of the above...Doug's wide rims and the Ferguson/Hornguys versions of the Minick L, LS, and Jeff Reynolds mouthpieces are what I would recommend trying.

Posted: **Wed Dec 20, 2023 8:10 am**

Have you tried the 20 size from Hammond?

Posted: **Wed Dec 20, 2023 9:50 am**

GabrielRice wrote: ↑Wed Dec 20, 2023 6:58 am All of the above...Doug's wide rims and the Ferguson/Hornguys versions of the Minick L, LS, and Jeff Reynolds mouthpieces are what I would recommend trying.

I can definitely second all of these. The Ferguson / Hornguys Minick pieces all have big cushy rims. Some may like that, some may not. The L is 28.1mm and can have a more "commercial" sound.

Posted: **Wed Dec 20, 2023 5:51 pm**

Our rims go as wide as you'd ever want. Sounds like either an 800 or 850 would do it

Posted: **Mon Jan 29, 2024 8:37 am**

Josef Klier's mouthpiece has a relatively thick rim. You can buy them here: https://www.thomannmusic.com/trombone_m ... ilter=true

Posted: **Mon Jan 29, 2024 9:02 am**

I`m a doubler and was starting to get more calls on Bass Trombone. I`ve never been happy with any mouthpiece .
Everything was a compromise. I really liked the Schilke 58 but it lack a solid pedal register for me. Didn`t like the rim on the 59 or the upper range but needed it for parts that lived in the basement.
Bach 1 1/GM and a Ferguson but just wasn`t cutting it for me.
almost a month ago I went to the FMEA (Florida Music Educators Association) Conference just to look at the vendors and see things I couldn't afford .
I talked at great length with Greg Black and ended up buying a 1 3/8G Medium weight.
It`s like a door opened up on Bass Trombone for the 1st time.
The sound is even High C - Pedal F. Slots perfectly Dark rich sound that will Bark if needed.
AND the rim is really comfortable and a little wider than most pieces.
I can`t stop playing the horn because now it`s fun and sounds great.
I would highly recommend Greg Black`s mouthpieces.

Posted: **Mon Jan 29, 2024 9:17 am**

Based on what you wrote, it’s not clear why you think a thicker rim will be helpful. Some bass players play better with a thicker rim, others do not.

The Hammond bass mouthpieces are nice, but after several years of playing a 20BL and a 20BXL and having difficulty with stability of articulations and sustained notes I went to other brands. For me it wasn’t the rim thickness, but the throat size and shape, and the funnel (entrance to the throat) size and shape. Something about the design didn’t work well—for me. YMMV.

However, if you like the Hammond mouthpieces, and you want something in between your 19 and 21, then a 20 would be a logical choice.

If it is the rim thickness/shape, then many of the suggestions above could fit the bill. I’m not encouraging a mouthpiece safari, but Greg Black makes nice mouthpieces with rims that are a little thicker than Hammonds and Bachs. The Griego-Markey line is also quite nice. Both have rim profiles that feel more comfortable to me.

Posted: **Mon Jan 29, 2024 10:27 am**

At one time I had a Hammond 19BL, 20BL, 20BXL, and 21BL. I used all of them as my main mouthpiece for at least some length of time as I figured out which one was really the best fit. I started with the 19, went to the 20, then the 21, then the 20BXL, and finally back to the 20BL and stayed there until I switched brands. They're all good mouthpieces, but for me the 20BL is the Goldilocks in that line. I would give that a shot first before branching out into modular and boutique mouthpieces, especially as you can probably swap your 21BL for someone's 20BL on the classifieds here without spending any money.

If that doesn't work, I'd go to Doug Elliott first.

Posted: **Mon Jan 29, 2024 11:56 am**

Yamaha 60B is in that arena - wide cushy rim, inner width a little less than a 1-1/4G. It's a little odd in that the cup sort f a GS shallow-ish affair, and the throat is smaller than average. Upper and pedals are stable for me when I play it, but the sound is brighter than you might expect for the cup width.

Posted: **Mon Jan 29, 2024 12:09 pm**

Depends on how much money you are willing to drop you could try to find the right GB size for you and ask him to make a thick, Premru-style rim instead of the standard one. That rim is super comfortable, I know he has done it for others before. Amazing work as always with him.

Posted: **Mon Jan 29, 2024 5:56 pm**

I second Long Island Brass Company. All of the mouthpieces with my inner rim have thin rims, except for the aforementioned.

Posted: **Mon Jan 29, 2024 6:57 pm**

The OP got my interest going in regards to finding a MP with a 28mm cup dimension. Although I've never measured the dimensions of a longtime favorite mouthpiece of mine, I finally did so and can report that it is [as closely as I can measure it with my Harbor Freight calipers] a 28 mm cup width. It has a wide, comfortable rim that some might regard as "cushy" at slightly over 8mm [.32"]. The throat measures at 7.1mm [9/32"]. It has a VERY conical cup which, as some who may have seen other references to this mouthpiece, strongly resembles a scaled-down Helleberg tuba mouthpiece. I had a recent affair with a Wedge 1G but went back to my old friend and found it to be almost perfect in every way. This is a mouthpiece that Bill Reichenbach handed to me one day and encouraged me to try. The result was that I didn't remove it from my horn for at least the next 20 years ! I have no idea where such a similar MP could be found, but I can assure you that it will remain with me until ---------------------------.

Posted: **Mon Jan 29, 2024 7:11 pm**

2bobone wrote: ↑Mon Jan 29, 2024 6:57 pm The OP got my interest going in regards to finding a MP with a 28mm cup dimension. Although I've never measured the dimensions of a longtime favorite mouthpiece of mine, I finally did so and can report that it is [as closely as I can measure it with my Harbor Freight calipers] a 28 mm cup width. It has a wide, comfortable rim that some might regard as "cushy" at slightly over 8mm [.32"]. The throat measures at 7.1mm [9/32"]. It has a VERY conical cup which, as some who may have seen other references to this mouthpiece, strongly resembles a scaled-down Helleberg tuba mouthpiece. I had a recent affair with a Wedge 1G but went back to my old friend and found it to be almost perfect in every way. This is a mouthpiece that Bill Reichenbach handed to me one day and encouraged me to try. The result was that I didn't remove it from my horn for at least the next 20 years ! I have no idea where such a similar MP could be found, but I can assure you that it will remain with me until ---------------------------.

My new Eon line will be something like what you're referring to. Likely the 800 size, and ask for the specific rim width. I usually only go .310" rim width max, but I'll gladly go. 320"

Posted: **Tue Jan 30, 2024 6:18 am**

I was confused from the beginning with the word thick. Wide is more appropriate which others brought up.

Posted: **Tue Jan 30, 2024 8:50 am**

I would also try the Curry 1.5G. 28mm rim size. Currently my favorite mouthpiece! Really makes my Shires light up and has very playable dimensions while still making an excellent sound. Won't break the bank either.

Posted: **Tue Jan 30, 2024 8:29 pm**

By a strange coincidence I had a Tilz bass trombone mouthpiece in my hands today. Very wide and comfortable rim, and not too expensive to get. I wonder how flexibility might be impacted by this wide rim, though.

Posted: **Sun Feb 04, 2024 10:41 am**

I just tried a Greg Black New York series for bass… very wide rims.

Posted: **Sun Feb 04, 2024 12:50 pm**

RustBeltBass wrote: ↑Tue Jan 30, 2024 8:29 pm By a strange coincidence I had a Tilz bass trombone mouthpiece in my hands today. Very wide and comfortable rim, and not too expensive to get. I wonder how flexibility might be impacted by this wide rim, though.

This could be great topic. From tenor player view: I never understood why bass mouthpiece have thin rim. With thin rim I mean thinner then Bach 5G's widness (or just standard tenor mouthpiece in this style). Why bass trombone mouthpieces were not originally conceived with the same width of tenor pieces, and only the diameter and the underpart as difference?

It was revolutionary for me move to wider rim compare to Bach 5G for example.

Posted: **Sun Feb 04, 2024 1:35 pm**

So the original story was that bass mouthpieces had thin rims because they used the same blanks as tenor pieces but just more cup removed.
I have another idea of why thinner rims are still popular: wide rims make flexibility harder for a majority of players. With a deeper cup like a bass trombone, that also makes flexibility more difficult. I don’t like razor thin rims, but I do play considerably thinner rims on bass than tenor. And my flexibility is about the same.

Posted: **Sun Feb 04, 2024 1:56 pm**

ZacharyThornton wrote: ↑Sun Feb 04, 2024 1:35 pm So the original story was that bass mouthpieces had thin rims because they used the same blanks as tenor pieces but just more cup removed.
I have another idea of why thinner rims are still popular: wide rims make flexibility harder for a majority of players. With a deeper cup like a bass trombone, that also makes flexibility more difficult. I don’t like razor thin rims, but I do play considerably thinner rims on bass than tenor. And my flexibility is about the same.

Thanks for the answer! I agree. I also think flexibility sometimes is harder, beacause the rim diameter. If the size is not correct I think moving around registers would be harder as well. I find that wide rims helps endurance, and I feel it much more stable on my lips also . Do you agree with that?

Posted: **Sun Feb 04, 2024 2:29 pm**

Stable? For sure. Never noticed an endurance factor on bass. No matter how much I play on bass, I never feel tired.

Posted: **Sun Feb 04, 2024 2:35 pm**

It's not just "flexibility" or using the same blank.
It's about mouthpiece placement vs where your nose is and how tall your top lip is. Bass trombone has to be able to play a very wide range, and if a fat rim is limiting where you can put the mouthpiece on your chops, you may lose range. That's somewhat of an issue on tuba too.

Posted: **Sun Feb 04, 2024 3:31 pm**

Danitrb wrote: ↑Sun Feb 04, 2024 12:50 pm

This could be great topic. From tenor player view: I never understood why bass mouthpiece have thin rim. With thin rim I mean thinner then Bach 5G's widness (or just standard tenor mouthpiece in this style). Why bass trombone mouthpieces were not originally conceived with the same width of tenor pieces, and only the diameter and the underpart as difference?

It was revolutionary for me move to wider rim compare to Bach 5G for example.

Thank you ! So far the rim does feel pretty amazing. Yes, in a way the lips are more "locked in" (not sure what else to call it) but within that, I do not its holding me back in terms of flexibility, I attribute it the diameter being within the range of what i usually prefer. 29-29.3

The cup is being described as medium shallow but it doesnt feel all that shallow. This is just a fun trial but i love the sound, warm and full lf core. Intonation is funky as notes slot in differently but overall the comfort and sound really are worth it.

Posted: **Sun Feb 04, 2024 4:30 pm**

Doug Elliott wrote: ↑Sun Feb 04, 2024 2:35 pm It's not just "flexibility" or using the same blank.
It's about mouthpiece placement vs where your nose is and how tall your top lip is. Bass trombone has to be able to play a very wide range, and if a fat rim is limiting where you can put the mouthpiece on your chops, you may lose range. That's somewhat of an issue on tuba too.

Great answer! I'm not a bass trombone specialist, I'm just asking out of curiosity and to create an interesting discussion. Do you think that having a larger diameter but with a wide rim can have the same good flexibility as a smaller thin diameter, or in any case does it change anything?
Personally, I think have mouthpiece wich lock embouchure in a certain position it's not bad (I have registers shifts, and it's not big problem connected them, even with wide rim!) and basically this allow embouchure works less, to mantain aperture. I'm not saying corners stop to work! But they still do the job, with less work and tightness (this happened to me). In this consideration, If I would have more flexibility I will switch to slightly larger diameter, or have gold plating.

Posted: **Sun Feb 04, 2024 7:18 pm**

For someone with a lot of room on their face, a wide rim is good. Look at pictures of Arnold Jacobs. Lots of room for a big mouthpiece AND a wide rim. Compare that to someone with a short top lip, who really needs a thin rim.

Posted: **Mon Feb 05, 2024 4:40 am**

Doug Elliott wrote: ↑Sun Feb 04, 2024 7:18 pm For someone with a lot of room on their face, a wide rim is good. Look at pictures of Arnold Jacobs. Lots of room for a big mouthpiece AND a wide rim. Compare that to someone with a short top lip, who really needs a thin rim.

While I completely agree (I use a .310" rim on a 27mm mouthpiece), I've found the majority of players want thin (about .240" max) and a good chunk want real thin (.210" or .220"). Where I don't get it is when a player strongly dislikes something around .230" but all is right in the world at .210", everything else being equal. That's not enough of a difference for it to be a facial clearance thing, so the only thing I can come up with is it's simply what they're used to.

That all being said, I gave up the fight on promoting wide bass bone rims a while ago, and cut whatever makes people happy now.

Posted: **Mon Feb 05, 2024 5:47 am**

ZacharyThornton wrote: ↑Sun Feb 04, 2024 10:41 am I just tried a Greg Black New York series for bass… very wide rims.

I've been on these since July. LOVE 'em. I have a 1/2G, a 1G, 1G LW, and 1GS LW all .312/#2. They remind me of some custom pieces Scott Laskey made for me at Schilke that I played from '83-'01 that had "fat" rims. To me these new GB rims are like "coming home". They're more comfortable feeling on my face and feel more stable playing.

Posted: **Thu Feb 08, 2024 3:08 pm**

I've went from a thin rim to a thick rim. Greg's 0 G to LIBrassCo 950 cup. I think the biggest differences were endurance and articulations. Lip slurs are definitely easier with a thinner rim but the sound is not as robust. Rounder and thicker rims let more of the chops in. When you mean thick, what exactly is the character of rim. Thick is only touching the "surface." Wicks have thick rims but a sharp inner bite. Where as my 0 g Black has thin rim but a very round inner bite.

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