TromboneChat

For those who play in big bands - how are your audiences these days? Our group played a holiday concert Sunday at the local cultural center. We played a great show - to maybe 100 people in a room that holds 450. We don't really have an advertising budget, so we mostly relied on social media to get the word out. Our local paper used to have a good arts writer who would give us a plug for most of our gigs, but he got layed off and the paper is a joke these days. Our girl singer is a very poplular local TV personality and she posts about events on her social media. But while that gets lots of comments about how great she is, it doesn't seem to motivate people to actually come to the show.

Back before covid, we used to get audiences of 2-300 for our shows, but now it seems like around 100 is about as good as we can do.

Any thoughts on how to grow our audiences?

Here are a few YT videos from the show. That's me in the snowman hat.

Posters (with QR codes) in the high school band rooms?

AtomicClock wrote: ↑Tue Dec 12, 2023 3:14 pm Posters (with QR codes) in the high school band rooms?

The HS kids (and directors) around here only seem to care about marching band. We have brought John Faddis into town to play with us and offered a free master class and still got next to zero participation from local schools.

Nice band! Our band in this area seems to be playing more than we used to because we're piggy backing on other events. We'll play at a street festival where there are already a lot of people, or at a facility with an enthusiastic captive audience (big nursing home), or a private club. We've got a couple people who spend a bit of energy promoting the group and getting us gigs, and they just have a lot of contacts. We played a local Christmas festival at a museum, which I think has been a good draw for us the last couple of years.

The group does struggle, but I think they have rebounded from covid relatively well. There used to be two groups in this area, but this is the only one that survived, and to be honest, it wasn't the better group, musically speaking. Interpersonal "issues" were the downfall of the better group, in my opinion (having played with both groups).

I notice your group doesn't have a front man. Ours doesn't either, and I think ours suffers for it.

Anyway, thanks for posting tunes, you all sound good!

The problem is that the typical audience for Big Bands is becoming a bunch of blue hairs like the audience for classical.

I belonged to several big bands and we couldn't get anybody to come to concerts. The only successful bands I belonged to played for dances at Senior Centers. The aging Boomers and Greatest Generation are the only folks who seem to want to listen to Big Bands.

hyperbolica wrote: ↑Tue Dec 12, 2023 3:44 pm
I notice your group doesn't have a front man. Ours doesn't either, and I think ours suffers for it.

Anyway, thanks for posting tunes, you all sound good!

The lead alto player does all the announcing and so forth. And we have 2 vocalists.

Having vocalists fronting the band really helps. Yes, people connect with the vocal charts. But vocalists also can do a fantastic job of engaging with the audience with dialogue between tunes. It's pretty important.

Also important: having a book that has great vocal charts. Too often, the quality of vocal charts gets neglected, and that really hurts.

For my audience experience: it varies. I have the occasional gig that gets maybe 10 people. I also just did a Christmas concert benefit for a church that had a couple hundred.

Mikebmiller wrote: ↑Tue Dec 12, 2023 4:19 pm

hyperbolica wrote: ↑Tue Dec 12, 2023 3:44 pm
I notice your group doesn't have a front man. Ours doesn't either, and I think ours suffers for it.

Anyway, thanks for posting tunes, you all sound good!

The lead alto player does all the announcing and so forth. And we have 2 vocalists.

Our band has some other dynamics. It was previously just a "dance" band (all instrumental), and then a couple of singers adopted us. Blessing and a curse, I guess. I think audiences have a hard time relating to a band without a singer, although this band was successful with the dance contingent. Part of the band thinks the singers are trying to take over and make us into a backup band for a couple singers. For us, the lack of a full-time front man leaves a kind of vacuum. If one of the singers could direct through transitions, kick off and cut off, that would be useful for us, but they honestly don't even read music.

When we did have a front man, I think it was an advantage relating to the audience, and for us anyway, I think it would solve some internal problems.

Most arts groups are experiencing a downturn in their audiences from pre-covid levels. Hopefully it's not a permanent trend. As far as what works - open bar?

Jim Scott

CalgaryTbone wrote: ↑Tue Dec 12, 2023 5:07 pm Most arts groups are experiencing a downturn in their audiences from pre-covid levels. Hopefully it's not a permanent trend. As far as what works - open bar?

Jim Scott

Can we send you the bill?

You can send it - not likely that I'll pay it!

JS

Creating an event on Facebook and inviting potentially interested people? I receive lots of invites from my FB friends to their events. I'm pretty keen on seeing live music so often I'm already aware of the event before they've invited me, but for most people they might be interested but simply don't know about the event. Also, my city has a newsletter / calendar of jazz happenings, maybe see if your city has one and you can post the event on there.

Musicians go out to hear music. The general public goes out to have a good time. Any advertising needs to appeal to different groups who might come for different reasons. Drinking, eating, dancing, holiday lights, children's activities - will get people out. A concert alone will only get just a few people to come out.

There's a Big Band here in CT that I now sub in on occasion that does a steady Monday night gig in a Brewery. Crowds are always good and the Brewery gives the band 1 drink and some pizza at the break. Of course the gig is a freebie but it's a very good band that has quite the history and following in the area. On occasion they also bring in a guest artist.

What was frustrating was leaving that concert where we played a lot of great music to go straight to a megachurh christmas program gig where we played some fairly cheesy "contemporary christian" music and they had 800 people in the crowd. But at least that one paid.

Doug Elliot is right that the general public goes out to have a good time.

I don't do many big band gigs, but I subbed in a big band last week that gets butts in seats in droves. They play the first Tuesday of each month in a sports bar. The club is closed on Tuesdays, but opens just for this band, because it fills the place. And indeed, it was packed and rocking the night I played. My spouse and I got there over an hour early and my spouse couldn't even get a seat, such is the enthusiasm. The only advertising this band does is on Facebook, but I think there are a few things that get the joint so rockin':

• They have a Facebook page, they create events, and the social media advertising is shared widely and constantly.
  
  It's also a regular gig, so people know when the band will be playing, and they've developed a following that way.
  
  They play at a bar where people can eat and drink.
  
  They bring in guest singers each gig, and the vocalists sing two songs per set.
  
  The band plays modern big band charts on standards, by Gordon Goodwin, Bob Curnow, Tom Kubis, and others who do more energetic and interesting arrangements than the standards.
  
  The band is really good. It blows the roof off. The soloists are outstanding. The energy is palpable. These are pros.

So I think the combination of (1) being really good, (2) having a regular gig at a nightclub or sports bar where people can eat and drink, (3) doing consistent social media adverts, (4) playing more modern charts, and (5) having rotating singers (with their own followings) has created a large and enthusiastic following for them. That seems to be a formula that works for them much better than a one-off at a cultural center. It allows for the general public to plan ahead and go someplace they can have fun while listening, while musicians come because the band is so darn good. Maybe try something long term and in a better venue, like that?

We played our Christmas concert last night for 360 people (30k population town). How did we do it?

Performed at the cultural arts venue where we hold weekly rehearsals. It's a barter deal in that they give us use of the space for practice and storage of our gear in exchange for quarterly concerts. The concerts are free to the public and tables are set up for folks to bring food and drink. It's mostly a social gathering for the aforementioned "blue hair & cat glasses" crowd. A bucket is passed around and the proceeds go to the local food bank. Last night we raised $1500.

These quarterly concerts are posted on Facebook in several different groups. That's the only advertising we do.

I've been a member of our professional Big Band since 2015. We allow and encourage the audience to videotape as much video as they want and share on social media. This spread what we do and it helps. After the pandemic we have had a full house every Monday at "The Olympia Theatre" also called "Uusii Teattri" at Västmannagatan 56, Odenplan in Stockholm (Sweden). Our audience is above 70. The jazz-club has about 100 seats. About thirty in the audiece are returning guests and about half of them come every concert. We have now done more than 150 concerts with mostly the same repertoire. In february we will do five more concerts on Monday evenings. We play as long as there is an audience. We don't reherse anymore, we just do the concerts.

/Tom

Note the demographic similarity between the band and the audience…

When I play in groups like these, I’m nearly always the youngest by 20 years or so. Facebook is not where you’ll find anyone under retirement age, but the older folks in these groups organize themselves there. So, that’s what gets booked and who shows up.

Bars, Instagram/TikTok, universities, and arts centers are often underrepresented marketing venues. It sounds like some folks are having success meeting the people where they are. Those who aren’t, well, aren’t, QED.

Although we trombonists think of the big band as an artsy concertizing thing today, we should recall that was not the case in the big band era.

In their heyday, the big bands... even the A-list ones... were making their income by slugging it out night after night playing college proms, class reunions, Rotarian dinners, wedding receptions, dance halls, etc... Places where people were going to go pretty much regardless of the band.

The legendary occasions like a "Concert at Carnegie Hall" were RARE events.

So, as already noted by others, you have to book yourself into a place that got the people there for you.

Has anyone mentioned conventions or trade shows?

Can you play Cantina Band from "Star Wars"? Or the theme from "Cowboy Bebop"? That might gather listeners at a sci-fi or comic convention.

Maybe there's a set you could put together that's relevant for a boat show?

bitbckt wrote: ↑Thu Dec 14, 2023 6:07 am Note the demographic similarity between the band and the audience…

When I play in groups like these, I’m nearly always the youngest by 20 years or so. Facebook is not where you’ll find anyone under retirement age, but the older folks in these groups organize themselves there. So, that’s what gets booked and who shows up.

Bars, Instagram/TikTok, universities, and arts centers are often underrepresented marketing venues. It sounds like some folks are having success meeting the people where they are. Those who aren’t, well, aren’t, QED.

You sound pretty young. And yeah, I admit to being pretty old. LOL! There may be a gulf between us.

There are certainly those "geezer bands" galore out there. Most of them stick to swing music, sometimes even playing the original charts from the swing era. They're about the nostalgia for the audiences, and nostalgic fun for the band members. Often those bands are filled with retired pros, part-timers, and amateurs. Their audiences tend to be as old as they are.

But they're not all like that, especially not the professional pick-up bands. I'm thinking of bands run by people like Gordon Goodwin, Dave Slonaker, Tom Kubis, Les Hooper, and those in other areas that use professional players. These bands generally aren't "swing bands," but are big bands with a more modern, concert (rather than dance) groove to them. They may play arrangements of some standards, but also have a ton of original, modern content. There's definitely a market for these bands. They have huge, loyal followings and pack everyplace they play. And Gordon, at least, has filled the Hollywood Bowl with his big band, and has 22 Grammy nominations and 4 Grammy wins to his credit. So someone is paying money to hear these bands, and it's not all blue-hairs.

I don't do a lot of big band work, but in just the last couple months I've had gigs with two of the "modern" kind of pro big bands, doing original charts, and boy were those venues packed. I also just recorded an album with one such modern band, and was asked to do a European tour with another. So, while there may not be full-time work in that genre, there is still work to be had with modern big bands. If they're good. Frankly, the modern bands have to be much better than the nostalgia bands to get gigs.

tbdana wrote: ↑Thu Dec 14, 2023 1:20 pm ...If they're good. Frankly, the modern bands have to be much better than the nostalgia bands to get gigs.

The "modern" bands have to be much better than the nostalgia bands, just to play the charts.
I play sometimes in a couple of bands like that, and they do pack the house with a variety of ages, at certain locations. I've even done Sinatra shows that somehow attract a young audience, and I'm not sure how.

tbdana wrote: ↑Thu Dec 14, 2023 1:20 pm So someone is paying money to hear these bands, and it's not all blue-hairs.

Yes, I'm one of those non-blue-hairs who does pay to hear those bands. The point is not that no one pays for live music in this style, or that only blue-hairs do. I doubt any of them are asking themselves, "where did my audience go, all my events are on Facebook!?" That sounds like a strawman argument.

Smaller groups won't have the reach (not to mention the ability) of those bands, and that seems to be what we're talking about here: local music produced by local folks for the enjoyment of other locals. A few hundred seats in the house, at best. The point I was trying - and failing, I guess - to make was that to fill a few hundred seats in a post-COVID world is going to need more outreach to more kinds of people than it took before, especially outside of a major market.

Presupposing "if the act were a headliner, they'd clearly fill those seats" is not useful advice.

I spent about five years playing in what I called "the most desperate big band in SoCal". We never were able to put the pieces together; in fact, every time I though we were "turning the corner", it ended up being a u-turn. That said, I have some ideas as to what we were doing wrong:

1) We had a serious identity problem. We couldn't decide if we were a swing band or a modern big band (even though "swing band" was part of out name). I believe there is a viable audience for either one, but you have to choose one or the other.

2) We had an semi-regular gig, but it was at a venue that normally booked garage bands. We'd go on at seven and play for an hour, then there'd be a garage band on after us. Not exactly compatible crowds.

3) Said "semi-regular" gig was just that - most of the time, it was the first Saturday of the month, but not always. If it had been a venue that normally had big bands and smaller jazz groups, that might have been OK. If someone shows up and there's a different band playing, but it's still within their musical sphere of interest, they're probably not going to be disappointed. But in our case, if we weren't there, it would be yet another garage band. Nirvana wanna-be band. There are some people whose musical tastes are sufficiently broad that they'd be OK with that, but not many.

Doug Elliott wrote: ↑Thu Dec 14, 2023 1:35 pm

tbdana wrote: ↑Thu Dec 14, 2023 1:20 pm ...If they're good. Frankly, the modern bands have to be much better than the nostalgia bands to get gigs.

The "modern" bands have to be much better than the nostalgia bands, just to play the charts.
I play sometimes in a couple of bands like that, and they do pack the house with a variety of ages, at certain locations. I've even done Sinatra shows that somehow attract a young audience, and I'm not sure how.

Yes, you could say our concerts are "Sinatra-concerts" too and it is nostalgia. We like it and the audience like it too The question was how to get audience to the gigs. Find a place and be patient seem to work and also to encourage the audience to spred the word. There are not many professional bands over here who have done more than 150 gigs with a seated audience. Most pro bands are just put together as shorter projekts. They might tour all over Sweden and do a Christmas show a couple of weeks in december but they can not fiill the same place week after week. I know I'm blessed and that we can not do this for ever. It's true our auduence is old and in ten years they might be to old, but in 10 years also the guys in the band will be retired. Let's just do this as long as it works.You can find a place and just try it. You might need some finances to be able start. It took some time before we had an audience and we rent the theatre. We had as few as 13 people in the audience once, but that was in the beginnig and many years ago. We have done concerts were the evening was a loss financially, but not anymore

/Tom

Our band plays a fair amount of the old standards, but we also play a lot of newer stuff including compositions by our director that are quite good and arrangements by a couple of other guys in the band. Our shows are usually about 50/50 vocals and instumentals, with each singer doing 2-3 songs per set. We did have a gig at an outdoor space this past fall that went very well. There is a new place in town that is a combination coffee roasting company and restaurant and they built a nice grassy space next to their building that has a good size stage area and lots of room for lawn chairs. People can get a coffee or a beer and hang out. We are going to be back there in April. We also do outdoor concerts at a local college in the summer.

bitbckt wrote: ↑Thu Dec 14, 2023 1:40 pm

tbdana wrote: ↑Thu Dec 14, 2023 1:20 pm So someone is paying money to hear these bands, and it's not all blue-hairs.

Yes, I'm one of those non-blue-hairs who does pay to hear those bands. The point is not that no one pays for live music in this style, or that only blue-hairs do. I doubt any of them are asking themselves, "where did my audience go, all my events are on Facebook!?" That sounds like a strawman argument.

I assume that's directed at me, but I'm afraid I'm at a loss to understand the "strawman argument" you think I'm making. Perhaps I'm being very unclear and giving false impressions, which is something I do from time to time as I only have two functioning brain cells when posting.

Smaller groups won't have the reach (not to mention the ability) of those bands, and that seems to be what we're talking about here: local music produced by local folks for the enjoyment of other locals. A few hundred seats in the house, at best. The point I was trying - and failing, I guess - to make was that to fill a few hundred seats in a post-COVID world is going to need more outreach to more kinds of people than it took before, especially outside of a major market.

Presupposing "if the act were a headliner, they'd clearly fill those seats" is not useful advice.

Yeah, I'm talking about local bands in smaller markets, too. I just used the well-known "modern" bands as examples that there's a market for that music (as opposed to just the nostalgia music). I think earlier in this thread I mentioned a local modern band in a smaller market that packs the joint every time they play, and I described what I thought were some ingredients to their success. And yes, Facebook was where they advertised. They do have an Instagram page with a whopping 9 posts and 101 followers, so I'm assuming that's not getting "butts in seats," and that their substantial Facebook presence is what does it. And no, it's not blue hairs. There were "young seniors" (oxymoron much?) in the audience, but a lot of middle aged folks, and even some teenagers. So it's not just "retired people" getting the word on Facebook, and the band's advertising is pretty limited to Facebook and word of mouth. This is obviously just one example, but I think it's an example in the area we're discussing (local bands in smaller markets).

I also said nothing about "headliners," and I'm not sure why you chided me on that for failing to provide "useful advice." I mentioned the following factors that I believe is useful advice. But, of course, your mileage may vary. The factors were:

tbdana wrote: ↑Wed Dec 13, 2023 10:16 am They have a Facebook page, they create events, and the social media advertising is shared widely and constantly.

It's also a regular gig, so people know when the band will be playing, and they've developed a following that way.

They play at a bar where people can eat and drink.

They bring in guest singers each gig, and the vocalists sing two songs per set.

The band plays modern big band charts on standards, by Gordon Goodwin, Bob Curnow, Tom Kubis, and others who do more energetic and interesting arrangements than the standards.

The band is really good. It blows the roof off. The soloists are outstanding. The energy is palpable. These are pros.

So, from your response, I think I failed in trying to communicate clearly. Not the first time, I'm sure it won't be the last. Please bear with me while I try to reset my brain-to-fingers connection.

Apologies if this has already been mentioned in some form, but these days you have to "associate" your big band performances with something established that brings in folks of all ages.

I've been in bands that "piggyback" onto town Christmas tree lightings, play for evenings of free ballroom dance instruction (sponsored by a school of dance), and promotionals and openings of centers and businesses of all kinds. Once folks HEAR you for the first time, if the band plays well you should have a springboard for all kinds of interest.

The band I've been playing with really bills itself as a dance band. I know there are groups in town centered around different types of dance. We play styles from old swing to funk, so we try to attract multiple types of dancers. Surprisingly, we get people on the floor even when we play nursing homes. Even when we play in a general aged audience sort of setting, the kids (under 30) are never the ones to dance. It's always the 50s-60s and sometimes older people who work it out on the floor. The dance thing has become our niche, and I think the people who usually dance to recorded music actually seek us out because we are the only regular gig in town for live music.

Dancers typically practice to the original recordings, so you have to get tempos right. Too many "dance bands" have no clue what swing and ballroom dancers actually want.

Doug Elliott wrote: ↑Fri Dec 15, 2023 10:53 am Dancers typically practice to the original recordings, so you have to get tempos right. Too many "dance bands" have no clue what swing and ballroom dancers actually want.

You have to have a band leader who was "there" to get the tempos right. The two dance bands I played in (Doug listened to one concert) have leaders who are close to 80 and over 80. Plus a number of members who grew up in the 1940s and 1950s. Lots of experience to listen to.

Back to Mikebmiller’s original inquiry……

From the video provided, the following items struck me right away:

*The group has some solid musicians. Musically, you have something that the general public should enjoy and support.

*The “holiday sweater with any type of pants look” is not working for this group. When I watch the video, I feel like I’m watching a group that is casually rehearsing on a Tuesday night. There needs to be something that visually unifies the group and makes them appear more professional. I’m not saying everyone should be in concert black. However, I think that the unity of black pants would work. Combine that with an only red and green sweaters and I think the group would look much better.

*The stage itself is also very drab. Add some projected snowflakes on the wall/screen behind the musicians along with some poinsettias along the edge of the stage and you will keep the people who need visual stimulation happy!

Other thoughts:

*I’m not a social media person, but I have several people in the groups I conduct who are. They have a routine in which they send a wave of information about our concerts three weeks, two weeks and one week before a concert. Many of our 35 and younger audience members have stated that they found out about our concert on Facebook and other social media.

*Traditional media - We have stirred up interest in our concerts by contacting the local newspapers and they have interviewed myself and others for articles in the newspaper. If the article goes out in the week before the concert, it can create a lot of interest. I have also done short interviews for radio stations and made plugs for our concerts. If the interview is aired during either morning or afternoon rush hour, you can reach a lot of people.

Doug Elliott wrote: ↑Fri Dec 15, 2023 10:53 am Dancers typically practice to the original recordings, so you have to get tempos right. Too many "dance bands" have no clue what swing and ballroom dancers actually want.

I play in a big band in which the director tries to adjust the tempos to the dancers on the floor. When the swing dance teams take the floor in their costumes, we know it’s time to go full tempo. That’s when the less experienced dancers sit it out and become an audience. The dance teams usually go full-throttle for about 3 or 4 songs and then go to bar and rest. That’s when we go back to more moderate tempos for several songs to accommodate the “common folk.” We repeat the cycle a few more times for a 3-4 hour gig and it keeps everyone happy.

Crazy4Tbone86 wrote: ↑Sat Dec 16, 2023 1:00 pm Back to Mikebmiller’s original inquiry…

*The “holiday sweater with any type of pants look” is not working for this group.

LOL as they say. We bill that concert as “We wish you a tacky Christmas.” We have been doing cheesy sweaters for the past few years and the band has a great time with it. The director even gives out an award for the guy that shows up in the least tacky outfit. As far as the venue, we don’t really have time or inclination to worry about the stage. We show up at. 3 and downbeat is 4 and we don't exactly have a decorating committee.

Mike, of the 4 Christmas big band shows I've played this year, three of them had large crowds (or rather, the one tonight is sold out, haven't played that one just yet). The one show that was sparsely attended (Ol' 74 band) was just after the town's Christmas parade, but not many people came inside just after for the show. It's hard to predict an audience, sometimes you're not even aware of what you're competing against and it's often out of your control.

While I was running the AJO the best thing for developing an audience was to get a monthly regular show and gradually build a regular audience. I found when we had a weekly show at a different venue that it spread out our audience, so you can't saturate your audience with shows that they won't come out to. You'll also need to program a show that your audiences will enjoy. For the AJO, that means a mix of stuff but ensuring that the folks who enjoy the older styles (and who often dance) get enough of what they want to hear to keep them coming out. We also frequently have themed concerts (Christmas, swing dance, all originals, tribute to famous bands, etc.). Often folks won't necessarily come out to hear a local big band play, but they will be interested in a concert of Duke Ellington or Glenn Miller charts. If they enjoyed coming to the swing dance, they often come back for other shows and as long as they get at least some of what they want they come back for more.

But audiences are weird sometimes. We did a Frank Sinatra concert with a great vocalist a while ago and very few people came out, for some reason.

Now that I've stepped down from running the band our vocalist has taken over handling the publicity and social media and she does a much better job at that than I was able to. Mike, if you're handling the publicity for the SJE you might talk to Wendy and ask for her advice.

AndrewMeronek wrote: ↑Tue Dec 12, 2023 4:41 pm For my audience experience: it varies. I have the occasional gig that gets maybe 10 people. I also just did a Christmas concert benefit for a church that had a couple hundred.

This was driven home for me at a pair of gigs last night and this morning. Big band gig at a fancy/stuffy private club last night. Non-responsive audience, little applause and few dancers (paid $xx token honorarium). This morning 500-800 in church with super cheesy brass licks and a clueless choir director (paid 5X what the other gig paid).

This was also the reason I got out of the pro-musician track. I knew I was going to grow to hate music if I kept playing crappy music just because it paid better. I'd rather play unappreciated music that I love for free.

Wilktone wrote: ↑Sun Dec 17, 2023 9:54 am Mike, of the 4 Christmas big band shows I've played this year, three of them had large crowds (or rather, the one tonight is sold out, haven't played that one just yet). The one show that was sparsely attended (Ol' 74 band) was just after the town's Christmas parade, but not many people came inside just after for the show. It's hard to predict an audience, sometimes you're not even aware of what you're competing against and it's often out of your control.

While I was running the AJO the best thing for developing an audience was to get a monthly regular show and gradually build a regular audience. I found when we had a weekly show at a different venue that it spread out our audience, so you can't saturate your audience with shows that they won't come out to. You'll also need to program a show that your audiences will enjoy. For the AJO, that means a mix of stuff but ensuring that the folks who enjoy the older styles (and who often dance) get enough of what they want to hear to keep them coming out. We also frequently have themed concerts (Christmas, swing dance, all originals, tribute to famous bands, etc.). Often folks won't necessarily come out to hear a local big band play, but they will be interested in a concert of Duke Ellington or Glenn Miller charts. If they enjoyed coming to the swing dance, they often come back for other shows and as long as they get at least some of what they want they come back for more.

But audiences are weird sometimes. We did a Frank Sinatra concert with a great vocalist a while ago and very few people came out, for some reason.

Now that I've stepped down from running the band our vocalist has taken over handling the publicity and social media and she does a much better job at that than I was able to. Mike, if you're handling the publicity for the SJE you might talk to Wendy and ask for her advice.

Thanks Dave. You guys have some good regular gigs up there in Asheville. I wish we had a place down here like the White Horse. Wendy is a fabulous singer, by the way. I played the Elvis show with her at Flat Rock Playhouse a few times.

hyperbolica wrote: ↑Sun Dec 17, 2023 3:50 pm This morning 500-800 in church with super cheesy brass licks and a clueless choir director (paid 5X what the other gig paid).

My church gig was more forgiving. Yes, there was cheesy stuff. But the cheesy stuff was still well-crafted and I like to think that I play a part in how this particular band works on maintaining good craft even in charts we complain about. Good pitch, good time, style, etc. But - this bandleader also mixed in some pretty challenging charts that are more fun for us to play. And I believe the audience appreciated both kinds of charts. The cheesy stuff for them to connect to more easily, and the more "fun" stuff that allowed us to show off more. There's a place for both in a well-managed show. Plus, this particular band has 3 great vocalists who between them can cover a pretty wide range.

To think about:

What was it that turned many of us onto music, and made us excited about wanting to become musicians and dedicate ourselves to this crazy world of music?

- we were listening to and and going out to hear Maynard Ferguson's 'MF Band' live.
Totally exciting to young 'wanna-be musicians', right?
What were they playing....arrangements of current pop tunes, film music. It was a hip and happening band. One in awhile you'd hear a hipper version of an old jazz standard. (he even introduced audiences to opera arias!)

- Buddy Rich big band was 'keeping up with the times' and playing some funky charts
- Woody Herman had some current hit tune arrangements
- Stan Kenton band was just super interesting, plus playing some hit tune arrangements
- Count Basie band still had a unique style and sound (appealing to all ages!)

All these band leaders WERE part of the 'Big Band Traditions' earlier in their careers. (both 'dance bands' and the 'concert jazz bands')

After those days, they were all out there trying to attract new and younger audiences in order to keep the big band traditions alive.

Much like Gordon Goodwin is doing is his own way these days. The Phat Band is about the only modern equivalent as far as being of any interest to a wide range of musical tastes and interests.

Snarky Puppy has a great following of all ages. They're turning younger audience onto what' really possible when you add horns and synths to a rhythm section (just like Maynard did)

OK...none of these bands are/were 'traditional swing bands'.

But...they made big band music exciting, accessible, and attracted new audiences.

They got people in the door. Once people were in the door, they could play some 'golden oldies' thrown in the set somewhere just to keep everyone happy.

But, the emphasis with those band leaders (Maynard, Buddy, Woody, Kenton) was on trying to stay current and relevant to society.

We need much more of that.

CMillar wrote:

Much like Gordon Goodwin is doing is his own way these days. The Phat Band is about the only modern equivalent as far as being of any interest to a wide range of musical tastes and interests.

And:

But, the emphasis with those band leaders (Maynard, Buddy, Woody, Kenton) was on trying to stay current and relevant to society.

In part due to this forum, I’ve been listening to Dave Slonaker, Alan Ferber and Darcy James Argue recently. And with a few more miles on them, Bob Minzer and Maria Schneider. All arguably modern. Current and relevant? Current maybe.

The band I play in did a concert in a seniors’ home this past weekend. The music was mainly the same old 60+ year old Basie/Nestico etc. charts that we all know and love. I got a sub in part because I figure I’ll be in a home soon enough but also because IMIO (in my insufferable opinion) neither they nor I need to hear much of this stuff again (assuming any of my fellow seniors heard this stuff when it was fresh and new). Take me Lord before I have to play Flight of the Foo Birds again.

I'm a book author, so I'm very sensitive to copyright issues. If someone copies my books, I don't make any money. You're not stealing from some big nameless corporation, you're stealing from me.

But that said, copyright issues really stifle bringing old bands into the new era. I'm trying hard to update a brass quintet and a trombone quartet, in addition to watching what is happening to this old big band where I'm just a member. Arranging charts of new-ish tunes (stuff from the last 30 years or so) is either done on the sly or you have to have some sort of corporate affiliation to get it done. Further, I would say most big band charts these days are bootlegged.

The "industry" found a way to make recorded music both accessible and profitable. They should put some effort into doing the same for printed or performed music. In another brass forum recently one arranger was shut down by shaddowy figures asking spooky questions about performable Christmas arrangements for brass quintet. There is no better way to turn law-abiding citizens into criminals than to have laws that are unreasonable and difficult to follow in practice.

For this reason in part I've been watching developments on Musescore. Musescore is based in Cyprus, not a country that comes to mind when you think of legal straight and narrow. Musescore allows you to download and upload electronically notated music (print music in a live format - not pdf). So you can download someone's arrangement and make your own arrangement or reorchestration or whatever. Kind of like Scribd but for music.

You can put up any music you like, but anything that is found to violate copyright will not be visible to others. It's a great site for making arrangements of public domain stuff. So arrangements of Mozart are fair game, but arrangements of the Beatles are not. Groups like the Beatles and Queen have been some of the most aggressive with getting stuff taken down, but you seem to be able to get through Johnny Cash, Ozzy Osbourne, Justin Beiber and the Budweiser Theme.

On one hand if someone were doing this to my books (and they have on Scribd and other places) I would be furious. On the other hand, I love being able to get and rework a cool arrangement of Don't Know Why sung by Norah Jones.

Musescore is the wild wild west for hobbyist arrangers, like Napster ~20 years ago. There was one guy (IowaBob) who did dozens of arrangements of popular tunes for brass quintet. This was about the time I posted here about looking for arrangements of pop tunes for quintet. I downloaded probably 80 different arrangements, some of which were usable, some had to be tweaked and some needed more structural repair before being performable. But a few months ago, all of his stuff was taken down. Where else can you get an arrangement of Benny And The Jets for brass quintet? Really. How are you going to update the image of archaic forms like big band and brass quintet if you can't get any music to play? How is there going to be music if you don't remunerate those who make it, or at least avoid prosecuting them?

I'm not advocating piracy, as an author that would be counterproductive and anathema. But "they" figured out a way to make Taylor Swift unbelievably wealthy while most people who hear her music never pay a cent out of pocket. Certainly culture in general would benefit if they made music available to the small groups that perform in all sorts of venues and small halls, small coffee shops, bars, clubs, etc.

I think part of "getting butts in seats" for local groups involves figuring out copyright for printed music in the same way as they have for recorded music. I want to be able to write a nice arrangement of Blackbird without becoming a criminal.

One of the real problems is with the definition of copyright.

It used to be that a copyright was for 28 years and was renewable for another 28 (total 56 years). There are a number of estates/businesses that have decided that this is not long enough. I usually cite the "Disney Rule" -- Disney wants to keep Mickey Mouse copyrighted, and he was developed in 1923, so the Disney Rule is anything from 1923 on stays copyrighted forever and anything before obeys the laws.

There have been a bunch of changes to the copyright laws extending the copyright, which in the US appears to be life of the creator plus 70 years. With the exception of Mickey Mouse (and I don't even know if Mickey is that important), what else really deserves perpetual copyright protection? The Rodgers and Hammerstein Archive is diligently moving to protect all of Richard Rodgers' works even though he's been dead for decades.

I thought we should be finished with a lot of the 1940s and 1950s music by now (who considers that popular any more?) but the new laws mean some of that stuff still has decades of protection. For that matter, anything from 1965 and earlier would be Public Domain under the old rules.

Then we have the issue of performance rights of copyrighted material. Some of the copyright owners have decided that these things should be cash cows and will try to milk as much as possible from people who want to perform the music. I have to pay $800 for one performance of an Aaron Copland work and my orchestra is operating on a shoestring and doesn't have money for this kind of royalties.

It's no wonder that bands with low budgets have to find their own people to write arrangements (often pretty sappy, sadly) to be able to perform a work that is still under copyright. And most of the tunes people want to hear are still under copyright.

BGuttman wrote: ↑Mon Dec 18, 2023 9:30 am One of the real problems is with the definition of copyright.

It used to be that a copyright was for 28 years and was renewable for another 28 (total 56 years). There are a number of estates/businesses that have decided that this is not long enough. I usually cite the "Disney Rule" -- Disney wants to keep Mickey Mouse copyrighted, and he was developed in 1923, so the Disney Rule is anything from 1923 on stays copyrighted forever and anything before obeys the laws.

There have been a bunch of changes to the copyright laws extending the copyright, which in the US appears to be life of the creator plus 70 years. With the exception of Mickey Mouse (and I don't even know if Mickey is that important), what else really deserves perpetual copyright protection? The Rodgers and Hammerstein Archive is diligently moving to protect all of Richard Rodgers' works even though he's been dead for decades.

I thought we should be finished with a lot of the 1940s and 1950s music by now (who considers that popular any more?) but the new laws mean some of that stuff still has decades of protection. For that matter, anything from 1965 and earlier would be Public Domain under the old rules.

Then we have the issue of performance rights of copyrighted material. Some of the copyright owners have decided that these things should be cash cows and will try to milk as much as possible from people who want to perform the music. I have to pay $800 for one performance of an Aaron Copland work and my orchestra is operating on a shoestring and doesn't have money for this kind of royalties.

It's no wonder that bands with low budgets have to find their own people to write arrangements (often pretty sappy, sadly) to be able to perform a work that is still under copyright. And most of the tunes people want to hear are still under copyright.

Right...and it's hard to get definitive answers from BMI/ASCAP, etc.

I believe that if you're performing music in an establishment (bar, restaurant, concert hall, etc.) that has paid their yearly BMI or ASCAP users's license, then you can play any music you want to (arranged in any manner) as long as that music is registered by the publisher/composer under BMI/ASCAP.

The same way that Maynard could tour for years and perform arrangements of pop songs. Even a lot of high schools and colleges pay their performing rights licences, so that nobody gets into legal trouble.

And the bar owners can legally play any music they want to on their house sound system if they have the licenses.

Does anyone ever check on this before they take a gig anywhere? Most 'Tribute bands' with decent agents will do that or know that, otherwise they'd get sued every day. And big concert halls understand the implications of not paying the BMI/ASCAP license.

Trouble is, most bar/restaurant owners haven't a clue about stuff like that, and they have a 'cowboy mentality' about it as in "no one can tell me what I can play or not!" (... until they get busted)

Most bar owners are too cheap to pay their license as well.

So why even have rules like that when nobody abides by them? Good question.

BMI/ASCAP are more worried about YouTube 'cover artists' trying to make money off of the hard work of actual songwriters/composer by playing another artists pop song without their permission and trying to make money from doing it. (...they're ignorant as to what they're doing in 99% of all cases)

Or, you can't make a commercial recording of someone else's copyrighted song/composition without the publisher/composers' permission.

If you want to make money from selling CD'/streaming music that has copyright music on your album then you have to pay for the privilege to do so, because you're trying to make money off of the hard work of someone else. (...you guys all know this...)

Back to the big bands.... it's pretty hard for big bands to play arrangements of current pop music because their really isn't much pop music that's worthy of arranging for big band.

Ed Sheeran for big band? Drake's greatest hits? (sorry to even bring up his lame name!)

At least Maynard's arrangers had some decent material to begin with!

Cmillar wrote: ↑Mon Dec 18, 2023 12:09 pm
Back to the big bands.... it's pretty hard for big bands to play arrangements of current pop music because their really isn't much pop music that's worthy of arranging for big band.

Ed Sheeran for big band? Drake's greatest hits? (sorry to even bring up his lame name!)

At least Maynard's arrangers had some decent material to begin with!

I disagree. A good arranger can work from just about anything. And a bad arranger can easily destroy even a great tune.

You can only get to a performance if you've got a chart. The arrangement side of all of this just seems to be much more murky, unless you're going through a real publisher. There are a number of decent arrangers who aren't necessarily pros. Even Robert Elkjer stuff isn't 100% performable. He's a pro and works with real publishers. This "IowaBob" guy from Musescore is a retired electrical engineer, but still put out some arrangements that were pretty good. He just doesn't have a way to get there without violating copyright. The process should be easier to comply with and certainly more transparent for the whole chain from creation to arrangement to performance and recording.

I like this thread. It's very interesting. That is all.

Copyright laws are really complicated and is very hard to pin down. So you should absolutely not trust anything I write or say on the topic, because it's probably wrong. Plus the resource that I first learned about this is from 1991, so I'm sure much of the laws have changed since then. So...

The copyright owner, not necessarily the composer, is entitled to royalties for performances, sheet music sales, and recorded performances/broadcasts. The laws regarding how those royalties are calculated are different, depending on whether it's a live performance, recorded performance, etc.

Once a composition has been recorded and released to the public, the copyright owner has no say in whether someone else can record their own version of the piece - so long as the royalties are paid to the owner. There are companies (Harry Fox Agency, for example) that focus on handling this side of copyright royalties.

Likewise, anyone can write up their own arrangement of a composition and perform or record that arrangement, as long as the correct royalties are paid. One can't sell that arrangement to other ensembles, however, without permission by the current copyright owner.

BGuttman wrote: ↑Mon Dec 18, 2023 9:30 am I have to pay $800 for one performance of an Aaron Copland work and my orchestra is operating on a shoestring and doesn't have money for this kind of royalties.

Who is getting that $800? Is that for sheet music rental? If so, that's the publisher pricing the sheet music, not royalties to the copyright owner of the composition (unless the publisher also owns the composition rights, not an unusual occurrence, I think, but that's aside from the rental). That $800 probably is in addition to the royalties for live or recorded performances, which would still need to be secured on top of the sheet music rental. If you were to write your own big band arrangement of that same Copland composition you would still owe royalties, but not be paying $800 to rent to score and parts.

hyperbolica wrote: ↑Mon Dec 18, 2023 9:10 am I want to be able to write a nice arrangement of Blackbird without becoming a criminal.

Take this with a huge grain of salt, I'm probably wrong. But you can write your own arrangement of Blackbird. You can even perform it or record it, provided the royalties are properly paid.

Cmillar wrote: ↑Mon Dec 18, 2023 8:05 am What was it that turned many of us onto music, and made us excited about wanting to become musicians and dedicate ourselves to this crazy world of music?

Looking at the big band examples you listed made me wonder a bit as to how accurate your impression is of the material these bands perform. Your take on this seemed as if these bands were largely playing pop or rock charts, sneaking in the occasional swing chart. My impression is the opposite, these bands largely played more straight-ahead jazz, but snuck in funk and rock charts from time to time.

For example, Gordon Goodwin's Big Phat Band's first album was "Swinging For the Fences." There are 10 tracks on it.

• Sing Sang Sung - A tribute or parady of Sing Sing Sing, a popular tune from the swing era. Shuffle groove.
  Count Bubba - Straight ahead swing chart
  Samba Del Gringo - Latin tune
  Bach 2 Part Invention in D Minor - Jazz waltz arrangement of themes by Bach.
  I Remember - Bossa groove.
  Swinging For the Fences - Bebop chart
  Mueva Los Huesos - Another latin chart, salsa groove
  Second Chances - Straight 8ths waltz, on the mellow side with lots of instrumental colors
  There's the Rub - Funk chart, reminds me of Tower of Power
  A Few Good Men - A "rock march" chart.

So out of 10 charts, there are 2 that might be called "commercial" style. I think that if we did something similar for Maynard Ferguson, Buddy Rich, Stan Kenton, and Woody Herman recordings around the time they were out touring and working on getting butts in seats we might find a similar breakdown of charts. Sure, they did a lot of rock and funk charts and often did arrangements of pop tunes, but by and large they were still jazz bands.

All that is to say that I believe that building an audience for a big band can involve fresh arrangements in styles that younger audiences can relate more to, but if you emphasize that you're going to loose the core of your audience that is expecting to hear more straight-ahead charts.

For a different example, check out the 8 Bit Big Band. They focus on performing arrangements of music from video games. I've not played most of the games that they've drawn music from, but the arrangements are great and the band is incredible. Certainly younger audiences are going to connect more with that music, although the average age of gamers is 30 years old these days.

Dave

Wilktone wrote: ↑Tue Dec 19, 2023 9:41 am
Looking at the big band examples you listed made me wonder a bit as to how accurate your impression is of the material these bands perform. Your take on this seemed as if these bands were largely playing pop or rock charts, sneaking in the occasional swing chart. My impression is the opposite, these bands largely played more straight-ahead jazz, but snuck in funk and rock charts from time to time.

For sure, you remember correctly. They played a good mix of music.

But, most importantly (especially in trying to appeal to college/high school students) they weren't playing 'dance music' from the '30's and '40's. The straight-ahead jazz tunes and the pop/rock/funk arrangements had Energy and Excitement that brought people out to hear these last vestiges of the traveling big bands.

Many of us (young or old) were/have been lucky enough to have grown up hearing the good old big band music from our parents LP collections, or were lucky enough, when young and impressionable, to be turned onto the energy of big bands and the sound of trumpets, trombones, saxes, and rhythm section.

Some kids may hear a set of Glenn Miller or Benny Goodman and really get turned on. But....that's pretty rare these days. All of us that love it and play it are kind of freaky in the big scheme of things!

I'm just saying that 'big-band dance' music is a special niche music. It's not going to attract huge or new crowds, unless it's a swing-dance convention or an event where the average age is over 75. And, most people that were alive in the '30's or '40's don't get out too much anymore. There's probably more musicians in the band than audience members for all that great music these days. Too bad.

All the more power to Gordon Goodwin, who's popular all over the world and can even take his band on the road. He's a wonderful composer/arranger, and it's fantastic that his charts are getting played by numerous colleges and high school jazz bands. The same way that Bob Mintzer's music was new and fresh for so many college bands that got to play it back in the '80's.

And, all the more power to those big bands around the country that are playing and performing both original tunes and arrangements of other tunes.

The Big-Band is a fantastic institution. It'd be great to see it continue to thrive and grow, as envisioned by, (what is many years ago now) composer/arrangers like Bob Brookmeyer, Bob Mintzer, Bob Florence, Bill Holman, Rob McConnell, and many others. They were pushing the musical boundaries of big band music, which composers like Maria Schneider and Jim McNeely have pushed even more.

So, at least the concert-music aspect of big band music is certainly alive and well in many places.

Has anybody played an arrangement of a Taylor Swift song? Shake It Off for big band?

I recall talking to Fred Sturm about some Steely Dan arrangements he did for the WDR Big Band. He couldn’t SELL me copies of the arrangements, he said, but he could
GIVE me copies.

I’m also reminded of playing a big band concert at a pub night at a post-secondary institution back in the early 1970s. We would have played charts like Nestico’s Wind Machine and Hayburner and Where is the Love and Corazon from Woody Herman (these lattertwo being arrangements of popular tunes by Flack/Hathaway and Carole King). We may as well have pulled the fire alarm. Cleared the room in about three minutes. I’m dubious about Make Big Band Music great again. But I could be wrong.

@Wilktone: The $800 was for a performance so it included all royalties (since we did not have BMI membership; just ASCAP).

I would bet that pop stuff like Taylor Swift or Beyoncé will have a lot of roadblocks to creating a Big Band arrangement unless done by their respective arrangers for a gig.

The Military Big Bands have "in house" arrangers to provide arrangements of popular music for their use (your tax dollars at work ). It's too bad these arrangements cannot be bought because they are done by the Military and cannot be given because of copyright issues.