TromboneChat

Hi chat,
I'm currently having issues with a King 3bf.

Sorry for the long post but I figured I'd lay out my thoughts and see what the hive thinks.

I booked a touring gig that called for a small horn but has some low Ebs, so I figured it was time to shell out for a 3bf.
I was limited on time and money and ended up with a 3bf for 800 bucks or so that looked in okay condition. My play tests confirmed (or so I thought) it was a fine horn.

Well, like an old beater car, I kept noticing issues over time.
I wound up putting another 700 bucks or so into repairs and replacements over time while on tour and I'm still just not happy.

The slide is gappy and needs constant attention, and the rotor had to be replaced. It was crushed at some point and patches weren't holding up so I went for instrument innovations. Despite the rotors good sound, its clanky and the whole thing just kills my hand, grip or no grip. Both techs that looked at it seemed to think the slide was fine, but I've tried yamaha and trombotine respectively after cleanings and it just sucks it down and dries out before the end of act 2.

I'm really regretting this purchase and regretting my repair/modification choices. I think in general this horn should have stayed as a "so so" 3bf instead of trying to make it better.
It probably is better now, but not 700 dollars better.
The only 2 horns I've ever regretted purchasing out of the various I've owned, has been a King 2b liberty and this King 3bf so maybe it's also a me thing.

So with that all out of the way I'm at a loss.
I kind of want to just cut my losses and let this be a project for someone else. It's perfectly playable anyways. But sunk cost has me thinking of more fixes.

Should I hunt for another 3bf?
Bach 36?
Replace the slide?
Should I see if I can get an F attachment for my Shires Q33 I love so much?
Quit and join the circus?

I'm interested in a Yamaha 356r which seems to go for cheap and has interesting specs if anyone has an opinion.

Get a valve section for your Shires and be done with it!

Keep an eye out for a cheap 3B slide too.

Not all 3B/Fs are created equal- I have owned 4, and the one I have kept (and play more than any other trombone I own) is the most beat up, cheapest one. The worst player was the immaculate H.N. White in silver plate.

King 607F and King 605F are also massively underrated.

One of the problems with the pro slides is their nickel, which I’ve been told is harder to fix than brass.

If you like the sound and or feel of the 3B, you may not have luck with the Shires, which is larger. If you are ok with the sound and feel of the Shires, a rotor may suit it well. Shameless plug: I have a dual bore rotor for sale which sounds like it would be the best fit for what you’re using this for.

I’m a little puzzled by the instrument innovations mention. Are you saying you had someone put a .562 rotor on a 3B? It’s not unheard of for a medium bore to have a 562 rotor (it’s the standard if there is one) but a 3B seems a little small for that big of a rotor. If it’s clanky… seems like it wasn’t setup right. A new rotor from them should be pretty silent and have quick action.

I love the 356R…. As an intermediate step up horn. Plays better than any borderline student instrument should. But it isn’t a Shires or like a Shires. It is a bigger student horn that blows pretty easily, doesn’t suck too much air, has a valve, no really weird funky notes, and open to mouthpiece choices. I’d use one in a musical pit in a heartbeat, but I prefer my straight horn there if I can get away with it for most shows. And I sold the 356R that I had decades ago.

Cheers,
Andy

I've also got a 3b that's mechanically questionable. Plus, I find it hard to get the tone to stabilize, although I think that's more an issue of me being used to larger horns. I think the valve knuckles on the 3bf being crumpled is a consequence of them being marched a lot - being one of the smallest mass produced horns with a valve.

I play mine because of the sound, but I can only get the sound to really stabilize when I try to play it bigger than it is.

You hear a lot of good comments about the 356. I've never really played a 356, but I've played a couple related horns, and I just didn't like the response. They're kind of on the dead, bland, meh side. Someone else stopped short of saying they're good student horns, but don't really make a replacement for a pro horn.

Really sorry that you had that type of experience. It sounds like that 3BF was really abused during its life, but now you've put in a bunch of $$$ so it's hard to give up on it. I KNOW THE FEELING ALL TOO WELL.

I would definitely look to see if you can find another slide for it, and maybe have the linkage entirely redone, if it wasn't done so already. However if the ergonomics of having brace in front of the lever are just not working for you, might be time to move it along. If the techs you had look at the slide said it was "fine", it may just not be the horn for you, especially if they are well-regarded in terms of slide repair, which is definitely not a skill everyone can master.

I believe a King 606 slide would also fit it if you are just looking for a cheap options for a new slide that works better. Used 606 can be found relatively cheap.

Matt K wrote: ↑Tue Nov 28, 2023 3:51 am I’m a little puzzled by the instrument innovations mention. Are you saying you had someone put a .562 rotor on a 3B? It’s not unheard of for a medium bore to have a 562 rotor (it’s the standard if there is one) but a 3B seems a little small for that big of a rotor. If it’s clanky… seems like it wasn’t setup right. A new rotor from them should be pretty silent and have quick action.

The valve knuckle was trashed on it originally. It played well in testing but it was very patched up and felt inconsistent.

I'm not sure, but my tech suggested an instrument innovations rotor. It plays well, but the linkages aren't set up well.

greenbean wrote: ↑Mon Nov 27, 2023 10:40 pm Get a valve section for your Shires and be done with it!

I'm considering this.

My q33 doesn't have posts to accept a new rotor, but I'm wondering if they'd be able to do that modification for me.
It likely wouldn't be cheap, but I genuinely love my q33, and being able to switch back and forth would be the best of both I think.

I bought a 3BF at about that same price point from a member of this forum. The rotor had some issues with alignment that a tech pointed out, although it still worked just fine. I did have to make some. Recently the valve was worked on as part of a bigger repair project after the bell took some major damage.

The ergonomics of the horn are definitely weird. It doesn't really bother me, but I can respect it being a deal breaker. It stands to reason that the F attachment is just another potential point of failure, mechanically speaking. I prefer my 891Z unless I know that I need to play below the staff or 3rd bone in a big band, but that's a matter of preference.

Anecdotally, the slide on my 3BF (from roughly 1969) is great.

What stinks is that there really isn't a modern stock option for .508 horns with an F attachment - I think maybe Shires does one and otherwise you're either getting a straight horn or a .525 horn.

ajeasley wrote: ↑Wed Nov 29, 2023 5:39 pm What stinks is that there really isn't a modern stock option for .508 horns with an F attachment - I think maybe Shires does one and otherwise you're either getting a straight horn or a .525 horn.

Aside from Shires, Rath will build an R2F (.510") as a custom order, and Kuhnl & Hoyer makes the Bart Van Lier 512F as a stock bone. These are the few that readily come to mind for "modern (any, really, but usually about .508") small bore with F."

And most .525" horns are based on a large (.547") bore chassis, save the elusive 3B+F as well as the King 607F and 608F.

Too bad. My King 3BF is killer. I’m a bass trombonist primarily but I find the 3BF a perfect compliment. Valve is great.