Leadpipe insertion length problem

[Gfunk]

Hi all, hoping for a bit of advice here.

I have a leadpipe where the mouthpiece doesn’t go in as far as my other leadpipes. It’s a large shank .525 (Shires MT2 for those curious), and plays noticably not as well as the small shank leadpipes I have for that slide. There seems to be some calcium deposits near the entrance, but I did ask my tech to clean it earlier this summer (although it’s possible he forgot or missed it). Could that be contributing to the issue I’m having? And if so what would be the best way to go about addressing it?

If anyone has any experience with a similar situation, I would appreciate your thoughts.

I’ll post a picture with the leadpipe and another shires large shank leadpipe. The top leadpipe is how the mouthpiece settles in all other leadpipes. The bottom leadpipe is the abnormal one I’m talking about here.

[Burgerbob]

I have had Shires leadpipes that eat up mouthpieces. And they usually didn't play as well. Probably something to do with inconsistency when drawn.

[GabrielRice]

That's a surprisingly difficult dimension to control consistently. I've seen Shires leadpipes at a pretty wide range of insertion depths. I've seen the same from Bach, and it almost certainly happens at other companies as well.

[harrisonreed]

Are those both the same DE shank size? An F8 might appear (externally) to not go in as far as, say, an H8 which is shorter overall.

But I'm sure you already checked for that. It should go in very close to 1" if the shank diameter is .496".

[Gfunk]

Are those both the same DE shank size? An F8 might appear (externally) to not go in as far as, say, an H8 which is shorter overall.

But I'm sure you already checked for that. It should go in very close to 1" if the shank diameter is .496".

Yes, I’ve isolated it to a leadpipe issue. That was just the easiest way to demonstrate it at the time.

[Doug Elliott]

F8 and H8 are the same length it's older shanks that were longer, pre-2023.

I have two ways to fix that.

I have a reamer the correct size (if I can find it).
It can be lapped using an old shank and lapping compound.
Either or both would work well.
Contact me if you want

[tbonesullivan]

From what I've seen, with a single piece drawn leadpipe, there is almost always going to be some degree of variation. It's unavoidable simply due to how the process works. I've owned 4 different recent bach 42s over the years, and I have used the same Laskey 59MD on all four. I have four distinct lines on that shank. Close together, but still distinct, and they span almost 1/4 of an inch.

[hornbuilder]

The actual insertion depth is irrelevant.



What matters is the distance from the end of the shank to the minor diameter of the leadpipe. It may be that infact that distance is correct for that particular pipe design, but the receiver end of the pipe was trimmed a little short.

The only way to know is to measure your pipe, with another one of the same spec, and see if the relationship between the shank and minor diameter is the same.

Ultimately all that matters is how does it play??

[Doug Elliott]

The whole "large shank in a .525" is strange all the way around. That bore size should probably be medium shank, but that would be a bigger mess.

The OP said it plays better with the small shank. So use a small shank.

[hornbuilder]

[Gfunk]

That’s for all the comments and advice here. This large shank leadpipe makes the horn uneven and the upper register more work than my .547 slide. But the small shank leadpipes really make it sing. Maybe it does just work better with small shank pipes— I’ve really enjoyed it when I use them. I just haven’t found that with this large shank leadpipe. Although the difference in the way the mouthpiece fits could be unrelated or negligible at the end of the day.

I think a large shank mouthpiece and .525 slide could work well in some situations. Although I certainly could be wrong and maybe that’s what’s happening here. But I’m not sure this leadpipe is really doing me any favors in that regard.

[Matt K]

I’ve been playing with large shank pieces in 525/547 and likewise find small shanks to work better generally. One of the better pipes I’ve found I’d weirdly the Conn X, which has a two piece design, and large nickel donut integral to the design. It adds perhaps half an inch to the overall length because most of the receiver is outside the slide.

I’m wondering if Doug’s idea of a medium receiver is a good idea albeit hard to come by. I really prefer the slightly smaller upper, but feel like for it to be a replacement for a straight 547, needs to be just slightly more open than anything small shank I’ve tried.

Holding out hope the new 4.5 design solves it and I can just use small shank pipes!!

[tbonesullivan]

I also have found the "using a large shank mouthpiece in a .525 bore horn" idea. I know that Shires makes leadipes for that, and I think that Conn did with their 88H. But it just doesn't seem to make sense. Is the venturi size on the leadpipe optimized for the the .525 bore, or for the large shank mouthpiece? Most large shank mouthpieces have a larger throat and back bore than their small shank counterparts.

When I got my Bach 36B I relatively quickly went to a Doug Elliott so I could get a mouthpiece that fit me but was also optimized for that particular horn, and the setup definitely works better for me than the small shank mouthpiece I had been using.

[Matt K]

Yep, that’s the idea. To use a larger mouthpiece (even if the rim and cup are otherwise identical) to get a different sound. It makes an enormous difference. A 525/547 with a large shank is really, really close to a straight 547 in my experience.

The large receiver leadpipes are made with the larger backbore and throat. The Conn “X” one for example, is quite open and works well, also in my experience, when you’re going after a large bore sound. The feel is similar but a little more efficient. I tend to prefer a 1.5ish taper. I also just got a MV36 replica from Brassark in large shank but I haven’t had a chance to try it out.

Typically, you’d play a large shank on a 8.5” bell and a 525/547, although you have used as small as a straight 525 and 8” bell and it can work too.

It depends on why you’re using it. It definitely doesn’t work as as well as a small shank for commercial purposes.

[JohnL]

I’m wondering if Doug’s idea of a medium receiver is a good idea albeit hard to come by.

I suppose the question to ask Doug would be whether he thinks that a medium shank leadpipe paired with a suitably designed backbore (something like a 6E but tailored for a trombone) would really offer a significant improvement over a small shank setup using his 5 backbore.