TromboneChat

I have never played or owned an indie bass so I do not know what to expect.

Assuming F/G/Eb setup, can the tuning slide for the second valve section be pulled out far enough in order to create a F/Gb/D setup when needed (kinda like pulling the F section to E)? For horns advertised to come with a F/Gb/D setup by default, if you pull one out of the box/case, is the tuning slide pulled out to begin with (so that pushing in the tuning slide changes it to F/G/Eb? Do indy basses come with two tuning slides for the second valve section? Or does it depend on the horn in question?

I have two crooks for mine but one only used the D one once !

Matt K wrote: ↑Tue Oct 24, 2023 2:55 am I have two crooks for mine but one only used the D one once !

By D one, do you mean the crook that sets the second valve to Gb? (I am new to bass trombone valves, just making sure...)

The only Indy I've played is my Edwards. The second valve slide is much, much shorter than the F slide. It may depend on the horn. I'm able to pull it out enough to play standard Bb-F-Gb-D or to push it in enough for Bollinger tuning (which I use), but not much adjustment beyond that. The horn does not come with a second slide, nor do I see one advertised.

The Holton TR181 was designed with a removable slide for the second valve to enable either G or G flat. Most modern independent basses don't feature the kind of slide pull necessary to swtich from one to the other. They're F/G flat/D by default.

wnlqxod wrote: ↑Tue Oct 24, 2023 3:01 am

Matt K wrote: ↑Tue Oct 24, 2023 2:55 am I have two crooks for mine but one only used the D one once !

By D one, do you mean the crook that sets the second valve to Gb? (I am new to bass trombone valves, just making sure...)

Correct, it's in Bb/F/G/Eb, but I have a Bb/F/Gb/D. The G valve is long enough to be bG but not Gb, so I could do "Bollinger" tuning if I wanted to too. IF I was doing a lot of contemporary stuff with a lot of Bs and Cs, I might use the Gb valve more often. Actually, I recently picked up a single valve section and that's what's been on the horn b/c I haven't done munch bass playing in the last year or so and it's substantially lighter that way. Makes it easier to practice!

This might help. Benge 290, pitch as per file names.

As you'll see from the lengths, you can't build a G wrap with enough overlapping tubing to pull to Gb; you either need separate crooks or, as pictured, extenders that use the same crook.

Most players I know tend to stick to one tuning, and since the vast majority of currently available indy basses are Bb/F/Gb/D, that is usually what they play. I used to own a Yamaha YBL-613H S, which has both a G and Gb crook, but after a few months of trying to work the G tuning into my playing, I went to Gb and haven't looked back. Then I got a YBL-830, and sold the 613H, so now I don't have the option.

My main reasoning was the combined pitch of the instrument. I'm already VERY used to D tuning from having a Dependent bass for so many years. Also having those notes closer in to 1st position is always good, IMHO.

wnlqxod wrote: ↑Tue Oct 24, 2023 2:47 amAssuming F/G/Eb setup, can the tuning slide for the second valve section be pulled out far enough in order to create a F/Gb/D setup when needed (kinda like pulling the F section to E)?

Usually not - there isn't enough pull in the second valve slide. Most bass trombones with F/G/Eb tuning came with extra slides to enable F/Gb/D (see Holton 181, Benge 290, Yamaha 613H).

For horns advertised to come with a F/Gb/D setup by default, if you pull one out of the box/case, is the tuning slide pulled out to begin with (so that pushing in the tuning slide changes it to F/G/Eb?

No. Most F/Gb/D bass trombones cannot be adjusted to F/G/Eb without having a tech cut some pipes for you.

Do indy basses come with two tuning slides for the second valve section? Or does it depend on the horn in question?

Usually not; the examples I listed above that come with tuning slide options are discontinued. Courtois still makes a bass trombone with convertible second valve tuning. Otherwise the only way to get a new bass trombone in F/G/Eb is by custom order.

When I started on bass, I researched some of the same issues. After owning dependent and indy, E, Eb and D tuning, I found that the indy D arrangement was the most useful for me. It turns out that is the consensus if there really is one. One thing that surprised me was that if you tune the 1&2 to D in 1st position, Gb/Db using just 2nd v turns out to be about 2" down from 1st position. Just like low F with the trigger is in 1st, but C is about 3/4" down the slide.

When I bought my Kanstul, I asked if I could have Eb tuning or the capability to switch, but Zig said it couldn't be done without some custom work. I get that flexibility is a bonus, but you'll gravitate to one or the other, and odds say that most people go for Gb/D tuning. Few horns are set up to make that switch. I can't think of a reason to want to do it. Once you develop your muscle memory for one tuning, switching won't be as attractive.

There is such a thing as Bollinger tuning which you'll have to read about separately so I don't screw it up and mislead you (I think it's called Bb/F/G/"flat Eb", but not 100% sure). But it essentially puts the "real" note further out of 1st position. To me, any note that is called flat in 1st position is not usable, so just name it the next note. For example, you don't call a Gb valve "flat G" because G is not playable, even though Gb is in very flat 1st pos.

Anyway, Bollinger has a lot of reasons why his method is cool, and they're valid. But with the Bb/F/Gb/D tuning, you have a Bb triad right in 1st position, and low C is almost exactly in typical 4th position, low Db is almost right on 6th.

Truthfully, I don't think most indy players use the 2nd v independently very much. I only use it for Db and Gb in the staff. Use of 2nd v independently is the only real argument for indy horns being superior to dependent in the first place. Turns out there's some bass trombone lore that doesn't really hold up to scrutiny. In the end, like everything else, you have to figure out what you buy into, and you should do that by testing a lot of horns and trying to use each for it's advantages.

hyperbolica wrote: ↑Tue Oct 24, 2023 8:21 am When I bought my Kanstul, I asked if I could have Eb tuning or the capability to switch, but Zig said it couldn't be done without some custom work. I get that flexibility is a bonus, but you'll gravitate to one or the other, and odds say that most people go for Gb/D tuning. Few horns are set up to make that switch. I can't think of a reason to want to do it. Once you develop your muscle memory for one tuning, switching won't be as attractive.

On the flip side of this, if you go Eb, it's a lot easier to go to D than it is to shorten and go to Eb. Almost impossible on some wraps because of how wide they are.

Truthfully, I don't think most indy players use the 2nd v independently very much. I only use it for Db and Gb in the staff. Use of 2nd v independently is the only real argument for indy horns being superior to dependent in the first place. Turns out there's some bass trombone lore that doesn't really hold up to scrutiny. In the end, like everything else, you have to figure out what you buy into, and you should do that by testing a lot of horns and trying to use each for it's advantages.

That's another benefit of the G side. When I had a Gb valve, I would also primarily use it for C so I could tune my F a little flatter to give me a good "F" in 1st. With G, I use it less, so I tune my F a little sharper but I use the G valve constantly. I almost never go farther than 3rd position, unless I'm playing below the staff, in which case I'll typically play F in 4th on the F side, but Db and below I'll usually engage both valves. SImilar to the "Bollinger" tuning you described earlier, that also gives me a nice F in ~3rd so I can stay closer to the middle of the slide when I'm playing down there.

The biggest problem I have is ergonomics. I have an ergobone that's a little cumbersome that I'm getting used to that helps a lot though. When I use the G paddle a lot w/o it, my hand gets a little sore.

I use the living crap out of my second valve; it's tuned to a flat G (what's now called the Bollinger tuning). My horn was built as a Bb/G/F/Eb; for many years, I played with the second valve pulled out quite a ways, but I eventually had a special crook made.

I typically play bottom of the staff F's and third space C's in third-ish with the second valve. Gb's and Db's can go either way (fifth w/o valve or second-ish with the second valve) depending on which lays better with the other notes. Obviously, I can't use the second valve to play notes in first position, but that's not something I miss. I

Matt K wrote: ↑Tue Oct 24, 2023 9:31 amWhen I use the G paddle a lot w/o it, my hand gets a little sore.

You might try a lighter spring.

As for the original question...

wnlqxod wrote: ↑Tue Oct 24, 2023 2:47 amAssuming F/G/Eb setup, can the tuning slide for the second valve section be pulled out far enough in order to create a F/Gb/D setup when needed (kinda like pulling the F section to E)?

I've never seen a G valve with enough pull to get to Gb. Some that get close, but not quite enough.

wnlqxod wrote: ↑Tue Oct 24, 2023 2:47 amFor horns advertised to come with a F/Gb/D setup by default, if you pull one out of the box/case, is the tuning slide pulled out to begin with (so that pushing in the tuning slide changes it to F/G/Eb?

Nope. You usually have to pull them a bit to get a good Gb (maybe ¼" to ½"), but there's no way you're going to push one in a half step.

wnlqxod wrote: ↑Tue Oct 24, 2023 2:47 amDo indy basses come with two tuning slides for the second valve section?

Some models (the Benge 290 and the Holton TR181 come to mind) came with half step slide extension. One the Olds S-24G and P-24G, you could swap the tuning slides on the F and G attachments and get something around a Gb.

hyperbolica wrote: ↑Tue Oct 24, 2023 8:21 amTruthfully, I don't think most indy players use the 2nd v independently very much. I only use it for Db and Gb in the staff. Use of 2nd v independently is the only real argument for indy horns being superior to dependent in the first place. Turns out there's some bass trombone lore that doesn't really hold up to scrutiny. In the end, like everything else, you have to figure out what you buy into, and you should do that by testing a lot of horns and trying to use each for it's advantages.

I really TRIED to use the 2nd valve in G as much as possible, but in the music I was playing (mostly orchestral), 4th position was just a better option. Most of the time I used it, it was to get the F# / C# / F# in 2nd position. Aside from using the valves to get the low register, I use them as shortcuts to facilitate playing within the staff, and I just found that a first position G is not what I found useful, and that having that first position low D was something I really like having.

I use my Gb valve all the time. Db, C, B, Bb, Gb, D, E, Eb (usually as D#, go figure) and even D come up all the time as a better choice on the 2nd valve.

I use second valve in G a lot. It's nice that between open/first/second valve many notes in the middle register have three alternate positions approximately equal-spaced along the slide - in almost every circumstance there's a convenient and smooth way to keep playing a passage, avoiding any big jerky slide motions.

I don't often use it for G and only occasionally for D, because it's annoying to have less room for adjustment when you're in first. Being able to tune the Gb around second is a definite advantage.

Try each if you can, but you are better off settling on one tuning or the other and using it all the time. Much more consistency in your playing. It's about making music not technique. I prefer D tuning because with G tuning low b winds up in sharp 7th, and I much prefer it between 5th and 6th. If not for that I would be using G tuning.

One option I haven’t seen mentioned here is the Edwards B454V. The V is for versatile and they make a variety of crooks for whatever tuning you want on the second valve. But yes, different crooks.

Plenty of threads on tuning here, so I’ll just give my brief thought:
G > Gb
BUT
D >>>> Eb for some situations (lots of Low Cs and Bs).

That said, I’m going to build a couple of Bb/F/G sections here with some extra crooks… just need to decide what flexibility I want to build in.

Cheers,
Andy

Plenty of threads on tuning here, so I’ll just give my brief thought:
G > Gb
BUT
D >>>> Eb for some situations (lots of Low Cs and Bs).

So.... what you're saying is we need a compensating Bb/F/G/D that adds a half step of tube when both rotors are depressed


..actually, I did inquire about that at some point when I was having mine made. I'm glad Jeff at LIBrass talked me out of it

Matt K wrote: ↑Tue Oct 24, 2023 3:41 am

wnlqxod wrote: ↑Tue Oct 24, 2023 3:01 am

By D one, do you mean the crook that sets the second valve to Gb? (I am new to bass trombone valves, just making sure...)

Correct, it's in Bb/F/G/Eb, but I have a Bb/F/Gb/D. The G valve is long enough to be bG but not Gb, so I could do "Bollinger" tuning if I wanted to too. IF I was doing a lot of contemporary stuff with a lot of Bs and Cs, I might use the Gb valve more often. Actually, I recently picked up a single valve section and that's what's been on the horn b/c I haven't done munch bass playing in the last year or so and it's substantially lighter that way. Makes it easier to practice!

ithinknot wrote: ↑Tue Oct 24, 2023 6:16 am This might help. Benge 290, pitch as per file names.

As you'll see from the lengths, you can't build a G wrap with enough overlapping tubing to pull to Gb; you either need separate crooks or, as pictured, extenders that use the same crook.

tbonesullivan wrote: ↑Tue Oct 24, 2023 6:37 am Most players I know tend to stick to one tuning, and since the vast majority of currently available indy basses are Bb/F/Gb/D, that is usually what they play. I used to own a Yamaha YBL-613H S, which has both a G and Gb crook, but after a few months of trying to work the G tuning into my playing, I went to Gb and haven't looked back. Then I got a YBL-830, and sold the 613H, so now I don't have the option.

My main reasoning was the combined pitch of the instrument. I'm already VERY used to D tuning from having a Dependent bass for so many years. Also having those notes closer in to 1st position is always good, IMHO.

spencercarran wrote: ↑Tue Oct 24, 2023 8:04 am

wnlqxod wrote: ↑Tue Oct 24, 2023 2:47 amAssuming F/G/Eb setup, can the tuning slide for the second valve section be pulled out far enough in order to create a F/Gb/D setup when needed (kinda like pulling the F section to E)?

Usually not - there isn't enough pull in the second valve slide. Most bass trombones with F/G/Eb tuning came with extra slides to enable F/Gb/D (see Holton 181, Benge 290, Yamaha 613H).

For horns advertised to come with a F/Gb/D setup by default, if you pull one out of the box/case, is the tuning slide pulled out to begin with (so that pushing in the tuning slide changes it to F/G/Eb?

No. Most F/Gb/D bass trombones cannot be adjusted to F/G/Eb without having a tech cut some pipes for you.

Do indy basses come with two tuning slides for the second valve section? Or does it depend on the horn in question?

Usually not; the examples I listed above that come with tuning slide options are discontinued. Courtois still makes a bass trombone with convertible second valve tuning. Otherwise the only way to get a new bass trombone in F/G/Eb is by custom order.

elmsandr wrote: ↑Wed Oct 25, 2023 6:28 am One option I haven’t seen mentioned here is the Edwards B454V. The V is for versatile and they make a variety of crooks for whatever tuning you want on the second valve. But yes, different crooks.

Thank you for all of your inputs!

Matt K wrote: ↑Wed Oct 25, 2023 6:34 am
..actually, I did inquire about that at some point when I was having mine made. I'm glad Jeff at LIBrass talked me out of it

Just out of curiosity, why?

I started out on Eb second valve in the seventies...less resistance than D. Went to Bb/F/bEb/Cish . Lots of tube. I still use that setup today if I need to play Bb and A not as pedals. I went to D when I went to Edwards with Thayers and stayed with that for many years. 15 years ago I had to play the Bartok glass and went back to Eb second valve to get a better gliss. I liked Eb and returned to it. To be honest, it's a minor issue. It's not going to make you a better player.

blast wrote: ↑Thu Oct 26, 2023 2:13 am Went to Bb/F/bEb/Cish . Lots of tube. I still use that setup today if I need to play Bb and A not as pedals.

Blast, out of curiosity:
What are situations where that comes up? Any specific pieces? Making specific runs in that range more smooth?

wnlqxod wrote: ↑Wed Oct 25, 2023 11:28 pm

Matt K wrote: ↑Wed Oct 25, 2023 6:34 am
..actually, I did inquire about that at some point when I was having mine made. I'm glad Jeff at LIBrass talked me out of it

Just out of curiosity, why?

I didn’t actually think of a compensating system, just a third valve. I was thinking dependent, so that I could get the benefits of independent with a g valve and the benefits of having C and B closer. Probably would have gone with a birdcage style removable had I done that. But it wouldn’t have got in my screw bell case, added a ton of cost, and now that I have a Bb/F/G/Eb, it turns out it’s not really a problem and even if it were I could easily swap crooks

Matt K wrote: ↑Wed Oct 25, 2023 6:34 am

Plenty of threads on tuning here, so I’ll just give my brief thought:
G > Gb
BUT
D >>>> Eb for some situations (lots of Low Cs and Bs).

So.... what you're saying is we need a compensating Bb/F/G/D that adds a half step of tube when both rotors are depressed


..actually, I did inquire about that at some point when I was having mine made. I'm glad Jeff at LIBrass talked me out of it

Working on it…. G/F/D three valves, thumb pulls 1&2 at same time to get F, finger pulls 1&3 to give G alone and D together.

Downstairs in a box needing trim and assembly…

Cheers,
Andy

MStarke wrote: ↑Thu Oct 26, 2023 2:40 am

blast wrote: ↑Thu Oct 26, 2023 2:13 am Went to Bb/F/bEb/Cish . Lots of tube. I still use that setup today if I need to play Bb and A not as pedals.

Blast, out of curiosity:
What are situations where that comes up? Any specific pieces? Making specific runs in that range more smooth?

Well, just recently we had a one trombone version of Verdi Macbeth made up of the cimbasso , trombone, bassoon and low horn parts...this meant pedal Bbs were not appropriate.

My current indy bass (Olds P-24G) and my previous one (Kanstul MS169) can be played in Bb/F/Eb or Bb/F/D depending on whether the attachment tuning slides are swapped or not.

I found out that the low D played in 6th (Gb valve only) for me was really rock solid and secure there instead of with both valves in 1st. From there I started playing more and more notes using just the Gb attachment to the point that now I don't use the F attachment at all when I'm using my Olds bass.

blast wrote: ↑Thu Oct 26, 2023 1:19 pm

MStarke wrote: ↑Thu Oct 26, 2023 2:40 am

Blast, out of curiosity:
What are situations where that comes up? Any specific pieces? Making specific runs in that range more smooth?

Well, just recently we had a one trombone version of Verdi Macbeth made up of the cimbasso , trombone, bassoon and low horn parts...this meant pedal Bbs were not appropriate.

Just want to make sure I read this right. So you're saying there's a difference between having Bb as a pedal and non pedal?

LIBrassCo wrote: ↑Fri Oct 27, 2023 3:25 am

blast wrote: ↑Thu Oct 26, 2023 1:19 pm
Well, just recently we had a one trombone version of Verdi Macbeth made up of the cimbasso , trombone, bassoon and low horn parts...this meant pedal Bbs were not appropriate.

Just want to make sure I read this right. So you're saying there's a difference between having Bb as a pedal and non pedal?

How I understand it - happy to be corrected - Chris is doing this more for sound/timbre than for playability. Bassoon has a range down to what we call pedal A if I get it right, so that does fit quite well. For me personally yes, pedal Bb sounds and responds differently than playing it with two valves. I would almost always prefer the pedal, but I am playing in totally different settings than Chris.

LIBrassCo wrote: ↑Fri Oct 27, 2023 3:25 am

blast wrote: ↑Thu Oct 26, 2023 1:19 pm
Well, just recently we had a one trombone version of Verdi Macbeth made up of the cimbasso , trombone, bassoon and low horn parts...this meant pedal Bbs were not appropriate.

Just want to make sure I read this right. So you're saying there's a difference between having Bb as a pedal and non pedal?

I'm not Chris... but of course there is. Pedals sound like pedals, and 2nd partials of a longer tube don't. Physics, innit.

ithinknot wrote: ↑Fri Oct 27, 2023 6:09 amI'm not Chris... but of course there is. Pedals sound like pedals, and 2nd partials of a longer tube don't. Physics, innit.

On the old forum, I think someone posted a spectrum analysis of the pedal notes on a trombone, and amazingly there is almost NONE of the fundamental in a pedal tone. It's all overtones. This is part of what causes the large difference in timbre between getting a low Bb with triggers and getting it in first position.

tbonesullivan wrote: ↑Fri Oct 27, 2023 8:22 am

ithinknot wrote: ↑Fri Oct 27, 2023 6:09 amI'm not Chris... but of course there is. Pedals sound like pedals, and 2nd partials of a longer tube don't. Physics, innit.

On the old forum, I think someone posted a spectrum analysis of the pedal notes on a trombone, and amazingly there is almost NONE of the fundamental in a pedal tone. It's all overtones. This is part of what causes the large difference in timbre between getting a low Bb with triggers and getting it in first position.

Way back in my PDEs class one of the homework assignments was to calculate the pitches available in a given length of pipe. The length of the air column on a trombone doesn't want to vibrate at the frequency of the pedals, you really just produce overtones and cause listeners to hallucinate/reconstruct the missing fundamental.

I wonder what it would sound like if you added the fundamental in post. Or live ... duet with a frequency generator.

LIBrassCo wrote: ↑Fri Oct 27, 2023 3:25 am

blast wrote: ↑Thu Oct 26, 2023 1:19 pm
Well, just recently we had a one trombone version of Verdi Macbeth made up of the cimbasso , trombone, bassoon and low horn parts...this meant pedal Bbs were not appropriate.

Just want to make sure I read this right. So you're saying there's a difference between having Bb as a pedal and non pedal?

Of course there is a difference. Yes I put all that extra tube in for the quality of sound. It's not for lightness or ease of blowing, that's for sure.

Burgerbob wrote: ↑Tue Oct 24, 2023 5:57 pm I use my Gb valve all the time. Db, C, B, Bb, Gb, D, E, Eb (usually as D#, go figure) and even D come up all the time as a better choice on the 2nd valve.

I think most of us Bass Trombonists who "main" Bb/F/G/Eb as our valve configuration were probably taught by someone who was a student of Donald Knaub at UT-Austin. He usually kept his 613 configured that way and taught most of his students to use that setup as standard. His students, in turn, then filtered that teaching down to others (which is how I was taught). I actually intended to go to UT-Austin to study under him for that reason, but he stopped taking students the year before I applied, so I missed out. My high school instructor (who was also adjuncting at my college at the time, they were between brass instructors) wound up teaching me for a few years in college too, so it just cemented it further for me. Once I got an instructor that wasn't a bass trombonist, he didn't even know there were horns that didn't use the Gb/D tuning and just thought I was weird. Once I got into grad school, my grad instructor constantly tried to engage me on the inferiority of the G/Eb setup, but since I never had difficulty in anything I played, he didn't try to force the issue.

When doing orchestral work, I do occasionally use my Gb/D slide and I've trained myself to be proficient in both setups... but my Bb/F/G/Eb arrangement feels more practical to me for most of what I do.

jhousdan wrote: ↑Thu Nov 02, 2023 11:33 amI think most of us Bass Trombonists who "main" Bb/F/G/Eb as our valve configuration were probably taught by someone who was a student of Donald Knaub at UT-Austin. He usually kept his 613 configured that way and taught most of his students to use that setup as standard. His students, in turn, then filtered that teaching down to others (which is how I was taught). I actually intended to go to UT-Austin to study under him for that reason, but he stopped taking students the year before I applied, so I missed out. My high school instructor (who was also adjuncting at my college at the time, they were between brass instructors) wound up teaching me for a few years in college too, so it just cemented it further for me. Once I got an instructor that wasn't a bass trombonist, he didn't even know there were horns that didn't use the Gb/D tuning and just thought I was weird. Once I got into grad school, my grad instructor constantly tried to engage me on the inferiority of the G/Eb setup, but since I never had difficulty in anything I played, he didn't try to force the issue.

Honestly, If it's working for you, I don't see why anyone would try to change what you'd already put a ton of time in on. This also makes me wonder if there is any connection with Dr. Denson Paul Pollard, who is proponent of the Bb/F/G/Eb I usually think of first and foremost. I think the only current production non modular / custom Bb/F/G/Eb horn currently in production is the Courtois 551, which I would assume was designed with his input.

tbonesullivan wrote: ↑Thu Nov 02, 2023 12:59 pmI think the only current production non modular / custom Bb/F/G/Eb horn currently in production is the Courtois 551, which I would assume was designed with his input.

Technically there's also the Chinese knockoff of the Yamaha 613H, marketed as John Packer 232 (among other names/brands). There's a noticeable enough difference between the original and knockoff that I have no regrets about spending a bit more for my Yamaha.

Also, in theory you can order a short slide to put the second valve on a Bach 50B3 or 50B3O in G, but I couldn't guess as to lead times to actually acquire one.

tbonesullivan wrote: ↑Thu Nov 02, 2023 12:59 pm Honestly, If it's working for you, I don't see why anyone would try to change what you'd already put a ton of time in on. This also makes me wonder if there is any connection with Dr. Denson Paul Pollard, who is proponent of the Bb/F/G/Eb I usually think of first and foremost. I think the only current production non modular / custom Bb/F/G/Eb horn currently in production is the Courtois 551, which I would assume was designed with his input.

My second bachelors instructor didn't try to change me, he just had to admit that he couldn't comment on my valve usage because he couldn't think on his feet about the difference between the G/Eb tuning and the Gb/D tuning.

My masters instructor didn't necessarily try to stop me from using it, he just tried to sell me on the idea of the Gb/D tuning being more useful, which never proved to be true for me.

In addition to the Courtois, The Holton TR-181 is still being produced, which offers both tuning arrangements via a tuning slide extension piece. The aforementioned John Packer 232 (which is essentially a license-built YBL-613H, both larger-bell cousins to the modern YBL-830) also has swappable tuning slides for both configurations. There exist custom tuning slides for the Bach 50B3 (both open and closed wrap) that can pitch the horn in G, but I don't think they come standard.

There is also a shires that allows for both, but as you pointed out, that's a modular horn.

All things considered, thats a pretty respectable amount of representation in modern "still in production" Bass Trombones, I think.

spencercarran wrote: ↑Thu Nov 02, 2023 1:44 pm
Technically there's also the Chinese knockoff of the Yamaha 613H, marketed as John Packer 232 (among other names/brands). There's a noticeable enough difference between the original and knockoff that I have no regrets about spending a bit more for my Yamaha.

Since the 613H was kind of the "Xeno YBL-830 before it was cool to be the YBL-830", I've wondered if their tuning slide sections were similar enough that you could take a G slide from the 613H/Packer 232 and use it on a 830?

jhousdan wrote: ↑Thu Nov 02, 2023 2:56 pm

Since the 613H was kind of the "Xeno YBL-830 before it was cool to be the YBL-830", I've wondered if their tuning slide sections were similar enough that you could take a G slide from the 613H/Packer 232 and use it on a 830?

I don't think so. The 613H 2nd valve tubing is cut very short to be able to fit that G slide, the 830 is much longer.

Burgerbob wrote: ↑Thu Nov 02, 2023 3:00 pm I don't think so. The 613H 2nd valve tubing is cut very short to be able to fit that G slide, the 830 is much longer.

Whelp, so much for that idea.

It's just as well, I love my 613G.

jhousdan wrote: ↑Thu Nov 02, 2023 3:04 pm

It's just as well, I love my 613G.

Yup, stick with that. The 830 isn't as good anyway.

Burgerbob wrote: ↑Thu Nov 02, 2023 3:09 pm Yup, stick with that. The 830 isn't as good anyway.

I've thought about picking up a 613H, but I can't remember if the bell is as big on the H model as it is on the earlier ones (my G model has a 10' bell), and the F trigger (and this is super "extra", but still) wraps over the hand instead of going under... which I like on my G model.

jhousdan wrote: ↑Thu Nov 02, 2023 3:13 pm
I've thought about picking up a 613H, but I can't remember if the bell is as big on the H model as it is on the earlier ones (my G model has a 10' bell), and the F trigger (and this is super "extra", but still) wraps over the hand instead of going under... which I like on my G model.

You'd want a 630G, which is a Yamaha-only model that uses the 613H valve section and the 613 parts for everything else. The 613H is completely different than the 613 and 613G.

Here's my old 613 next to the 630G I use now-

Burgerbob wrote: ↑Thu Nov 02, 2023 3:49 pm You'd want a 630G, which is a Yamaha-only model that uses the 613H valve section and the 613 parts for everything else.

613H takes Bach slides, 613 and 630G ...don't?

Burgerbob wrote: ↑Thu Nov 02, 2023 3:49 pm

jhousdan wrote: ↑Thu Nov 02, 2023 3:13 pm
I've thought about picking up a 613H, but I can't remember if the bell is as big on the H model as it is on the earlier ones (my G model has a 10' bell), and the F trigger (and this is super "extra", but still) wraps over the hand instead of going under... which I like on my G model.

You'd want a 630G, which is a Yamaha-only model that uses the 613H valve section and the 613 parts for everything else. The 613H is completely different than the 613 and 613G.

Here's my old 613 next to the 630G I use now-

great... another model I'll have to find!

ithinknot wrote: ↑Thu Nov 02, 2023 3:59 pm

613H takes Bach slides, 613 and 630G ...don't?

630G also uses the 613H tenon/receiver, so it does take Bach slides like the later horns.

jhousdan wrote: ↑Thu Nov 02, 2023 2:56 pm

spencercarran wrote: ↑Thu Nov 02, 2023 1:44 pm
Technically there's also the Chinese knockoff of the Yamaha 613H, marketed as John Packer 232 (among other names/brands). There's a noticeable enough difference between the original and knockoff that I have no regrets about spending a bit more for my Yamaha.

Since the 613H was kind of the "Xeno YBL-830 before it was cool to be the YBL-830", I've wondered if their tuning slide sections were similar enough that you could take a G slide from the 613H/Packer 232 and use it on a 830?

No luck; different widths on the 613H and 830 for the second valve wrap.

jhousdan wrote: ↑Thu Nov 02, 2023 2:56 pmSince the 613H was kind of the "Xeno YBL-830 before it was cool to be the YBL-830", I've wondered if their tuning slide sections were similar enough that you could take a G slide from the 613H/Packer 232 and use it on a 830?

As others have said, it unfortunately won't work. There is also no way to make a G slide that will work with the 830, as they increased the length of the tuning slide outers so they are farther back, which gives you more tuning adjustment room, but makes it impossible to construct any type of G Slide for it, unless you cut down the wrap a bunch.

If you look at the Edwards B454-V-E, you will note that the second valve wrap is rather narrow, which is how they are able to make an open wrap that works with three different tunings, but also has more than the inch of tuning pull that the lower leg of the YBL-613H tuning slide has. That of course was a compromise to have the Gb attachment not stick out farther behind the main tuning slide while still being able to take the G crook. With a narrower attachment, you have a narrower end crook, and more length that you can use for a tuning slide.

blast wrote: ↑Fri Oct 27, 2023 1:20 pm

LIBrassCo wrote: ↑Fri Oct 27, 2023 3:25 am

Just want to make sure I read this right. So you're saying there's a difference between having Bb as a pedal and non pedal?

Of course there is a difference. Yes I put all that extra tube in for the quality of sound. It's not for lightness or ease of blowing, that's for sure.

I had a conversation quite some time ago with another bass trombonist about the utility of BBb with both valves engaged. He was of the opinion that while it’s there, it’s useless. I was of the opinion that it’s useful. I’ve only used it once, a pianissimo BBb with reed instruments. I’m glad I had the option.

To the OP: Yes, some older models had optional/additional crooks to lower the second valve tuning from G to Gb. Some Holtons (TR 180? 181? not sure which), and some Conns including the venerable 62H and 73H. The Olds P24G was pretty cool: you simply swap the tuning slides and you’d change the second valve tuning from G to Gb.

With an older out-of-production model where the optional crook is lost, you’d have to find a stray crook somewhere, or have a tech make one for you, like ithinknot did with a Benge, above.

Great players have used Bb/F/G/Eb tuning, great players have used Bb/F/Gb/D tuning, and other great players have used both of these at different times, like blast (Chris Stearn) mentioned above, along with a variety of tunings, like Bb/F/Eb/C etc. (I’ve heard that conversations REALLY heat up when trombonists talk about contrabass tunings!)

If you are one of those people who have horn(s) with different tunings, try them and use what works best and sounds best. It’s good to be flexible—Elizer Aharoni’s book is all about that.

The most important thing to remember: the different valve tunings are only there to help you make music.

spencercarran wrote: ↑Fri Oct 27, 2023 9:13 am

tbonesullivan wrote: ↑Fri Oct 27, 2023 8:22 am On the old forum, I think someone posted a spectrum analysis of the pedal notes on a trombone, and amazingly there is almost NONE of the fundamental in a pedal tone. It's all overtones. This is part of what causes the large difference in timbre between getting a low Bb with triggers and getting it in first position.

Way back in my PDEs class one of the homework assignments was to calculate the pitches available in a given length of pipe. The length of the air column on a trombone doesn't want to vibrate at the frequency of the pedals, you really just produce overtones and cause listeners to hallucinate/reconstruct the missing fundamental.

Well, a good tuner will record the pedal tones very easy. Is the tuner hallucinating?

The pitches in a cylindically tube of the same length as the trombone, will not give you the same length of the standing waves as in a trombone, the partialls line up in odd multiples in cylindrically tubes that is closed/open. Like a clarinet. If it is open/open the partials line up like in a flute. But with another "pedal tone" then the trombone.
Pardon my English. And spelling.