TromboneChat

I have a MV Bach 42 that I recently acquired and will upgrade the valve sometime in the next year. I'm leaning towards an Olsen axial with all new parts for the valve section. Between Edwards and Shires, I played on an axial for over a decade and always came back to it even after trying out all the other valve options by those makers.

Does anyone have any experience with Caidex valves or Meinlschmidt Radial Flow (not open flow)? I know this question has been asked before on here, but these are both newer valves so I wanted to see there were any additional updates as more people try them.

Has anyone taken a Greenhoe or M&W Bach-style horn and made parts interchangeable with a vintage Bach? (Not just taking the valve from one of those and putting it on a Bach). Is this possible while maintaining a tension-free resonant instrument in both configurations?

Anything is possible. Re maintaining a tension free resonant instrument, that all depends on the tech doing the work.

I had a corporation back I added a shires valve to. Work turned out great. There’s a quasi local shop that does really good work. It played way better than it did before and it was already a great horn.

MV Bach valves are usually great ! Why would You change it ?

Tbarh wrote: ↑Tue Oct 24, 2023 12:20 pm MV Bach valves are usually great ! Why would You change it ?

I'm not sure I would totally agree. They can work, but a modern valve will make the horn simply... better in most respects. If you want to use it in real life, sometimes it's the best course of action.

Burgerbob wrote: ↑Tue Oct 24, 2023 12:41 pm

Tbarh wrote: ↑Tue Oct 24, 2023 12:20 pm MV Bach valves are usually great ! Why would You change it ?

I'm not sure I would totally agree. They can work, but a modern valve will make the horn simply... better in most respects. If you want to use it in real life, sometimes it's the best course of action.

^This.

Lhbone wrote: ↑Wed Oct 25, 2023 9:22 am

Burgerbob wrote: ↑Tue Oct 24, 2023 12:41 pm

I'm not sure I would totally agree. They can work, but a modern valve will make the horn simply... better in most respects. If you want to use it in real life, sometimes it's the best course of action.

^This.

Sigh !!

I bought a 1990`s era 42BO.
Horn played great but the F register was horrible.
I had my favorite tech change the valve out for an Instrument Innovations rotary Valve.
WOW !! it`s a fantastic valve. Very open and free blowing

dukesboneman wrote: ↑Thu Oct 26, 2023 12:44 pm I bought a 1990`s era 42BO.
Horn played great but the F register was horrible.
I had my favorite tech change the valve out for an Instrument Innovations rotary Valve.
WOW !! it`s a fantastic valve. Very open and free blowing

Yes, but MV valves are not necessarily the same thing…

Not a 42, but I LOVE the valve on my NY 50B. It is fantastic. Obviously not as open as my Thayers, but more than fine for modern usage. Same can’t be said of my early Elkhart 50B2. Those were not bad, but just not at all what one wants out of a modern horn.

I don’t necessarily agree that a valve swap will make a MV horn better. It will certainly make it different, but maybe not better.

Cheers,
Andy

elmsandr wrote: ↑Thu Oct 26, 2023 3:26 pm
I don’t necessarily agree that a valve swap will make a MV horn better. It will certainly make it different, but maybe not better.

Cheers,
Andy

But why can’t different and better go hand in hand? When I was on Shires for a long time, I played an axial. I wanted to love one of their more efficient and open blowing rotors and tried them all, but they just didn’t play as well for me as their axial did. Ergo, a different valve made my horn better. For me.


Anyway, to get back on topic - anyone want to chime in about Caidex or Radial Flows (beyond what’s already been said in the other threads earlier this year). Is there a horn that comes with the radial flow?

Oh, they can go hand in hand…. But they may not. Heck, a good number of great MV and NY Bachs have had axials added and become even greater in the hands of some. I do just want to caution that different does not imply better. It could get worse, and that change could be irrevocable. Just… be careful.

*for completeness sake, I have a single NY 50 that is great as is. I also have a great NY 45 that had a bad, worn valve that had previously had a bad core swap. I made it interchangeable with my other 50B EdThayer axial setup. That wasn’t good. It now is on a Trubore and that works well. Though when I get a minute (and some funds) I’m going to try something more like a Caidex or rotax.

Cheers,
Andy

Unless the valve is worn and leaky beyond repair/refitting, keep the original valve. The entire horn will play poorly if the valve is leaking.

Try replacing the neckpipe tube first, they're often undersized and a choke point on Bach bell sections. Have one installed in which the smaller side of the tapered tube matches the bore of the valve. The neckpipe will frequently be replaced on a new valve install and may amplify whatever impact the valve change itself might cause.

Blabberbucket wrote: ↑Sun Oct 29, 2023 9:12 pm Unless the valve is worn and leaky beyond repair/refitting, keep the original valve. The entire horn will play poorly if the valve is leaking.

Try replacing the neckpipe tube first, they're often undersized and a choke point on Bach bell sections. Have one installed in which the smaller side of the tapered tube matches the bore of the valve. The neckpipe will frequently be replaced on a new valve install and may amplify whatever impact the valve change itself might cause.

Respectfully, I'm not asking IF I should change out the original valve. I'm asking if anyone has experience with Caidex or Radial Flow valves on their MV Bachs. Or, I'd love to connect with someone who has experience making the instrument interchangeable with a Greenhoe or M&W.

I appreciate your input and opinion, but I'm replying to leave this thread open ended in case anyone can chime in about my questions in this thread.

I've had a lot of experience in doing just that.

Not quite the same thing, but I have a Greenhoe GB5 bass trombone, and I have two vintage Bach 50 bells and a Bach/Greenhoe conversion tuning slide fitted to it. Bach handslides need no modification to fit a Greenhoe Bach-style instrument. Lou Anderson at Virtuosity in Boston did the excellent work to make it all interchangeable. My daily instrument is now this Greenhoe/Bach.

The Greenhoes are not as open as Thayer valves, but I don't want them to be. If you're most comfortable with a Thayer, I think that's probably your best bet. Based on bass trombones I've tried, I would choose a Shires axial over an Olsen.

I have also tooted on both a tenor and bass trombone with Caidex valves. They're great. But again, I prefer rotors over Thayers.