TromboneChat

Hello…does a large bore trombone without an f-attachment exist? If yes, what would you recommend for a concert band setting for first chair? I have used an f-attachment but have rarely needed to use it. Since I’m now mostly playing in the higher register why have all that extra weight allowing me to play lower notes? Is there a trombone that could be recommended for first chair in a concert band? Thank you.

For a First Trombone in Concert Band I like a Medium Bore (0.525", 13.2 mm). It won't be materially lighter than a large bore straight horn, though.

You can buy straight versions of your F-attachment trombone. If you play a Bach 42B, there is a Bach 42. If you play a Conn 88H, there is a Conn 8H. If you play a Yamaha 620 there is a Yamaha 610. Many of the Chinese brands also offer 0.547" (13.9 mm) straight horns as well.

The reason to keep your large bore with F is that you won't be playing First all the time, and you may need to handle a lower part. If you ditch the F-attachment, you may suddenly find you miss it.

An interesting compromise is the Convertible instrument. Benge made the 190C, and Bach makes a 42C and 36C. With a Shires or Edwards the valve section is modular and can be replaced by a straight pipe as well.

I had a King 4B Silver Sonic without an F attachment. So they do exist. It was just difficult finding the right place to use it.

Those convertible instruments are just a gimmick. Just look at the cases. No storage for the valve when removed; they expect you to reinstall it every time you case the horn. A bit of a disincentive for using the straight pipe. Also, I don't believe they come with an extra counterweight, which is probably mandatory. And slow to take on and off -- more disincentive.

A modular design - Shires or Edwards for example- can be used as a straight horn if you bought the straight neck pipe. I have an F att and a straight neck pipe that I use with .525 and .547 bore slides and 8 and 8.5-inch bells. Also a counterweight for the straight horn.

It’s nice to change it up once in a while.

Yeah, I had a convertible Bach 42 as an army horn circa 2014. With the F attachment on, it played like an unremarkable Bach 42B (definitely not bad, but 10 years later I don't recall anything about it). As a straight horn though, it was so poorly balanced that the reduced weight just wasn't worth it.

I would love to have a straight .547 horn for principal work, but it would be a frivolous expense just for the sake of less metal to hold up during a concert.

Most any large bore trombone can be had without the valve. But if the only reason you want one is "less weight", I think you're going to find that "less weight" is not equal to "more comfortable to hold". It's going to be nose heavy so you'll probably need to add weight to it anyway, and some brands have a considerable distance between the bell brace and the slide brace, so the amount you have to stretch your hand can be less comfortable than the grip on a valved horn.

Thirty years ago, my college bought a fleet of Blessing B8's for the marching band. Reasonable horn, as I recall.

Bach 42 and Yamaha 610 and 881 are some from familiar brands. However I don’t think it has much use. You don’t know when will you be requested to play low. And as a personal horn, why pay for 2 horns when 1 horn can cover it all?

For convertible horn, I once played a 42C (convertible Bach 42B) and it has almost all the problems mentioned above. It is nose-heavy and there is no storage for valve section in the case. Bach is kind enough to make the brace S-shaped so it is not that uncomfortable to hold. Another problem that I noticed is the alignment. Everthing does not fit properly.

BGuttman wrote: ↑Sun Oct 22, 2023 4:42 pm
You can buy straight versions of your F-attachment trombone. If you play a Bach 42B, there is a Bach 42. If you play a Conn 88H, there is a Conn 8H. If you play a Yamaha 620 there is a Yamaha 610. Many of the Chinese brands also offer 0.547" (13.9 mm) straight horns as well.

The reason to keep your large bore with F is that you won't be playing First all the time, and you may need to handle a lower part. If you ditch the F-attachment, you may suddenly find you miss it.

Ahhh...so they do exist. I do have an F-attachment and would not sell it but so far all the music I've been getting does not require me to use the trigger. I thought a straight large bore tenor would be lighter but perhaps not. Also, I do like the simplicity of a straight tenor.

Thanks for your help!!

brassmedic wrote: ↑Sun Oct 22, 2023 8:19 pm Most any large bore trombone can be had without the valve. But if the only reason you want one is "less weight", I think you're going to find that "less weight" is not equal to "more comfortable to hold". It's going to be nose heavy so you'll probably need to add weight to it anyway, and some brands have a considerable distance between the bell brace and the slide brace, so the amount you have to stretch your hand can be less comfortable than the grip on a valved horn.

Great points. I've never held a straight large bore tenor so the thought of it potentially being nose heavy didn't occur to me. As well, good call on the distance between the bell brace and the slide brace - that thought had not occured to me either.

Thank you for your advice!!

They do exist. They are used - sometimes for principal trombone parts in orchestras or concert bands. But relatively infrequently for the reasons noted. Yes they are somewhat lighter. Perhaps slightly different sound. Most of us continue to play large-bore with F-attachment. And you won't always be playing 1st trombone parts.

Good luck.

Best horns I have ever played were without F attachment!
King 4BSS
Edwards T383A
Edwards no valve bass
Rath no valve bass

I would love to play a larger instrument without a valve… but as a bass trombone player primarily… I have no use for one. (I do play tenor, but mainly to teach or 2nd trombone parts).
But I still keep a valve less Edwards large bore in my car because you never know when you can fit an extra 15 minutes of face time in!

If I was OP… try one out! Also try a .525 straight horn!
Good luck!

There is plenty of room for straight large bore on principal trombone, as most of the rep doesn't need a valve. But you need an F-attachment horn for the parts that do, so it would make sense to only consider buying a straight large bore if you play a lot of principal trombone and already have a great F-attachment tenor. It's generally ill-advised to have straight large bore as your ONLY large bore...I speak from experience, and I don't recommend it! But if you already have a horn with a valve that you love and you find the right straight horn, they can be really special. I tried a Holton TR156 at DJ's once that blew my mind, and I'll always regret not buying it.

Of course, if we're talking modular horns, a straight neckpipe is a small part and not an entire horn, so go nuts if you feel the desire. If I played a modular bass and had a tenured chair playing it in an orchestra, I might pick up a straight neckpipe for that too. Lots of 3rd trombone parts don't need a valve either!

There can be real magic in a straight .525 as well. I once tried a straight Shires .525 with a red bell that was absolutely fabulous. Just the most beautiful, colorful, light classical tenor sound, with a vintage color and richness I don't usually get from modern modular horns. Perfect for solos and chamber music.

brassmedic wrote: ↑Sun Oct 22, 2023 8:19 pmBut if the only reason you want one is "less weight", I think you're going to find that "less weight" is not equal to "more comfortable to hold". It's going to be nose heavy so you'll probably need to add weight to it anyway

Ah, but since the center of mass of a counterweight is farther away from your grip point than the center of mass of an f-attachment, it doesn't have to weigh as much to balance the instrument, which means the instrument can be lighter overall.

AtomicClock wrote: ↑Sun Oct 22, 2023 6:00 pm Those convertible instruments are just a gimmick. Just look at the cases. No storage for the valve when removed; they expect you to reinstall it every time you case the horn. A bit of a disincentive for using the straight pipe. Also, I don't believe they come with an extra counterweight, which is probably mandatory. And slow to take on and off -- more disincentive.

My large bore setup was based on a straight Bach 42. I bought it as a straight horn and liked it so much I got a valve section made. Even though I have a detachable valve section I would usually turn up with the straight gooseneck attached. If I get a surprise in the parts once I‘m at a rehearsal/gig I have the valve section in the case (soft case) and can attach it.

I like the horn with the F valve, it‘s very very good like that, I just slightly prefer it in the upper register without the valve. I wouldn‘t take it on and off between pieces but it‘s nice to have the backup for when I screen through the parts and realise I need it. In this way a convertible horn has replaced two horns I previously owned and allows me to turn up blind with my preferred straight setup, knowing I have the valve if I need it.

Is this a gimmick? Not to me, it does exactly the job I want but perhaps I am in a minority of preferring the straight setup where possible.

They do exist, and are a lot of fun to play!
Convertible horns tend not to convert very well, for me at least they always play significantly better either with the valve or without, and don’t seem to translate back and forth very well.
If you’d like to go straight .547 I’ve got an Abilene 8h and a bargain Selmer Largo available!

JohnL wrote: ↑Sun Oct 22, 2023 11:27 pm

brassmedic wrote: ↑Sun Oct 22, 2023 8:19 pmBut if the only reason you want one is "less weight", I think you're going to find that "less weight" is not equal to "more comfortable to hold". It's going to be nose heavy so you'll probably need to add weight to it anyway

Ah, but since the center of mass of a counterweight is farther away from your grip point than the center of mass of an f-attachment, it doesn't have to weigh as much to balance the instrument, which means the instrument can be lighter overall.

I feel like you fixated on that point and didn't read the rest of my post.

brassmedic wrote: ↑Mon Oct 23, 2023 1:09 pm

JohnL wrote: ↑Sun Oct 22, 2023 11:27 pm
Ah, but since the center of mass of a counterweight is farther away from your grip point than the center of mass of an f-attachment, it doesn't have to weigh as much to balance the instrument, which means the instrument can be lighter overall.

I feel like you fixated on that point and didn't read the rest of my post.

I saw no reason to elaborate on your comments regarding the "reach" between braces; it's something that's most certainly a concern on some models (though not all). On the other hand, I felt that there might be those who could use a little more information regarding weight, balance, and the interaction between them.

I will say that most players miss out on playing a large bore straight tenor- pure trombone sound and feel. A 36 or 42 size would be great. I have a Conn 82H (.525) and a Conn 8H and they are so much fun to play. I saw Mr. Glassl at NAMM once and he had a straight bass in red brass- it was awesome! The one horn I really sought was a red brass Conn 78H. That would be a blast! So in context, a .525 would be fine but a .547 can work too. Mouthpieces - that's another chapter.

There was a time...and it wasn't really all that long ago...when many orchestral principal trombonists played straight large bore instruments most of the time.

I had some lessons in the early 90s with Dudley Bright, then principal of the Philharmonia Orchestra, later with the London Symphony, who so much preferred his 8H over an 88H that he would use it on Mahler symphonies and play the occasional low Eb or D as a false tone.

When Joe Alessi started in the NY Phil, he played a straight 42 most of the time as far as I know. Glenn Dodson played a straight 42. For a long time Jay Friedman played a straight 42 or his Holton model.



There have also been bass trombonists who did not adopt double valve instruments when they became available. My teacher Ray Premru played almost exclusively a Holton 169, and he hated the slot-in valve so much I think he left it somewhere and lost it. Today, Micha Davis of the Israel Philharmonic plays a Bach 50BL with a stock closed wrap single valve section. I play many orchestral programs on a single valve bass - these days it's usually a mid-60s Bach 50B with a single Rotax valve.

My large bore set-up is a Getzen 3047AFR. It's a great cheaper Edwards horn for the indecisive people. I got a straight neckpipe for the horn and it's been my go-to setup for everything. Most of my work in Horn section or single trombone settings so the large straight bore works great giving me the bigger sound without the valve section weight to lug around. I like this setup as I don't have to switch around horns a lot as it's essentially the same horn and lately, mouthpiece setup. With this setup, i like it better than a 525 horn.

I love my 8H. Since you've already got a large bore with the valve, and you don't plan to lose it. And assuming budget and storage space aren't an issue. I would highly recommend getting a straight large bore horn. When my community band starts up a new season, I show up for the first practice with my 88H. If the music doesn't require the valve, I spend the rest of the season on the 8H. It's simple and it's powerful, a joy to play

A few years ago, when I came back to playing large bore tenor (more), I got myself a straight Blessing with the red (copper?) bell. Really really nice instrument. Including probably the best high D I have found until now on any tenor.

I don't think it's much lighter than one with a valve (the counterweight is there for a reason). But as others said balance is more important anyway. What I really liked is the simplicity. Not having to care for the valve. Not during playing and not during maintenance.

However I sold it and now own 3 different 88hs (old Elkhart, modern Gen2 valve, Greenhoe) :-/ In the end they are just more versatile. In practicing I tend to go at least a bit in the trigger range and on any gigs it's just safer to have it. If you are really just playing high, then maybe move away from a large bore completely?

I've owned two straight large bores. One was my 8h, which I often play with a 525 slide. Very colorful horn. I had a GenII and currently own a '58 Elkhart. Both really great instruments. The other was a dual bore Holton 156 bought brand new in '87 or '88, super powerful instrument if you have the chops for it. It isn't for everyone, and even if you can handle it, it isn't for every setting. I only played it in a large orchestra playing in a large auditorium, and I only played it when I was in really good shape. There have been certain 42's that tempted me, but the 8h is the thing.

Thank you everyone for chiming in. I have lots of information to digest.

I played a straight horn most of my life. Started playing left-handed to be different. When I got back into trombone 20+ years ago I got a Jupiter 632 large bore straight. I finally got a Bb / F and spent about a year getting muscle memory established. I've got several small bore bones but prefer my large bore with a valve.

Try a Courtois AC420T (yellow brass bell), or AC420TR (Gold brass bell) large bore straight tenor trombones. One of the best kept secrets. One YouTube reviewer said it had a “French” sound, but what does that really mean? It sounds like a beautiful trombone sound to me.

The best reason to keep the large bore with valve IMHO is not the deeper valve range, but the better agility in the medium range with nice alternative slide positions using the valve. Shortening the valve to Gb makesit even better, some like a G valve for the same reason. ..

I play Edwards horns. They have a straight pipe to replace the valve. I use my straight horn 90% of the time for symphony and concert band. I play a 547/562 slides.

The sound without the valve is sweeter and cleaner. Also a bit more nimble.

The best valve is no valve, IMO. I love Elkhart Conn 8hs. More open and stable than an 88h with a conventional rotor. Often quite affordable. Plenty around. I had a Holton 156 that was a real weapon. I'm generally not a Bach fan and have never had a straight 42, but I'd love to try one. I've also long wanted a straight Olds Opera to try, but haven't found the right deal.

Paul

Paul

I like playing my Shires .547 as a straight horn.

I really prefer a straight horn
I`ve had an 8H (should never have gotten rid of that horn), 42 , 36 and now I have
a Yamaha 641 - .551 Bore all nickel with a Red Brass Bell
My 42B is a fantastic instrument but I like the straight horns.
I went thru Grad school as a Performance major on a Straight Benge 190

I had a Conn 8H, should have kept it!! Very nice playing horn

I played a Jupiter 636 for decades because I played left handed. Then I had some low Ds and I borrowed a trigger horn. Felt a little awkward at first, now I wouldn't want a straight horn. I have a few but like the advantages of a trigger.

One of my all-time favorite trombones was a straight large bore Kühnl & Hoyer Bolero. That's one I wish I still had.

MBeal wrote: ↑Wed Apr 24, 2024 7:40 am One of my all-time favorite trombones was a straight large bore Kühnl & Hoyer Bolero. That's one I wish I still had.

Speaking of Bolero: I recently had to play Bolero on my 0.500 bore Shires SS, after my 3B+, which I usually use for symphonic principal gigs, had an unexpected, close to concert, valve lever breakdown and had to go into the repair shop. It worked splendidly and as all the other program pieces were on alto, I was all good and fine.

As for your horn, I hope you'll some day get it - or a similar horn - back!