TromboneChat

Combining various materials that I cannot cite because I do not remember, with two of the sources being Doug Yeo and Jay Friedman, I gathered that

- German players had a strong influence in modern American trombone design
- Wagner just about single handedly began a paradigm shift in timbre taste from finesse to power; yet, there still exists 19th century designs that emphasize colour at piano, and playing even a "moderate forte" can be difficult on them
- There are 19th century German trombones that precisely take up a modern large shank mouthpiece

So then, I am wondering:

- In what ways is the modern North American horn different from the modern German horn?
- Are there any German horns with a handslide width comparable to the modern large bore wide crook width?
- Are there German tenor trombone mouthpieces roughly comparable to Bach 5G, Bach 4G, and Bach 3G in size? Ditto if said mouthpieces date back to pre WWI or earlier.

Denis Wick had a good comparison of American, German, French and British trombones in chapter 1 of his Trombone Technique (out of print).

Here’s a couple of papers that describe the German trombone.

General differences (that I’m aware of):
Different alloys (“German” brass, which seems to have more copper than gold brass and less than red brass)
Thinner guage metal
Smaller bore, and often dual bore
Larger bells, and almost always with a Kranz
Smaller bore in the tuning slide and spout of the bell

wnlqxod wrote: ↑Sat Oct 21, 2023 2:58 pm Combining various materials that I cannot cite because I do not remember, with two of the sources being Doug Yeo and Jay Friedman, I gathered that

- German players had a strong influence in modern American trombone design

Early in the 19th century, bore size and bell size grew to modern and ever larger proportions in Germany, notably in Leipzig. There was a famous trombone maker, Sattler, who also invented the f-attachment, and a famous trombone virtuoso, Queisser, for whom for instance Ferdinand David wrote the famous trombone concertino.

The American trombone is a derivative of the German trombone. It is essentially cheaper made with thicker material, simplified production procedures like two piece bells, slightly smaller bell, etc. Maybe it was influenced by cheaper German trombones made for army bands that were mass produced and shipped everywhere before WWI.

wnlqxod wrote: ↑Sat Oct 21, 2023 2:58 pm
- Wagner just about single handedly began a paradigm shift in timbre taste from finesse to power; yet, there still exists 19th century designs that emphasize colour at piano, and playing even a "moderate forte" can be difficult on them

Wagner wanted more colors, more sound etc. There were many inventions at that time like the Wagner tuba, bass trumpet etc.

I don’t know where the difficulty with “moderate forte” comes from. A trombone played for many years by many principal trombone players is the Kruspe Weschke model, developed by Ed Kruspe with Paul Weschke, a famous trombonist at the beginning of the 20th century. (In the earlier original post, I mistakenly wrote 19th century.) With that trombone you can play loud but it is not a fog horn. You can cut through the sound carpet of the orchestra without covering up other instrument. That’s really a desirable feature I think. It can be bright, it can be dark, you can play with all kinds colors. It was played for many years in Bayreuth at the Wagner Festspiele.

Typically a German trombone will have less “core” in the forte (but more core in the piano) and less “projection” though. It means that you will see less often the hand of the conductor, again a desirable feature I think.

wnlqxod wrote: ↑Sat Oct 21, 2023 2:58 pm
- There are 19th century German trombones that precisely take up a modern large shank mouthpiece

Yes and no. Most German trombones use something like what we call today an euphonium (medium) shank size mouthpiece. My Kruspe bass trombone uses large shank. My Kruspe Weschke uses small shank. My Penzel, Polter etc use medium shank. My Heckel alto uses something between small and medium. One of my Kruspe altos uses a shank smaller than small shank, another of my Kruspe alto uses small shank etc.

wnlqxod wrote: ↑Sat Oct 21, 2023 2:58 pm
So then, I am wondering:

- In what ways is the modern North American horn different from the modern German horn?

Thinner, lighter, shorter bell section, bigger bell, different bell shape, often Kranz on bell, otherwise Saxon bell rim, one piece bell, generally seamed pipes and crooks, extremely resonant, variable timbres and colors of sound, softer attack, no lead pipes, longer slide section, mostly heavier slides though because older, open slide brace, no slide lock yet, f-attachment with ergonomically very convenient thumb sling, snakes on crooks to prevent dents, friction joint, A flat is in tune in first position, etc. German trombones are more difficult to play because there are more dimensions to control.

wnlqxod wrote: ↑Sat Oct 21, 2023 2:58 pm
- Are there any German horns with a handslide width comparable to the modern large bore wide crook width?

Sure. The slide on my Weschke is wider than in my Holton TR 258. Much more ergonomic than the Holton or Conn 88H.

wnlqxod wrote: ↑Sat Oct 21, 2023 2:58 pm
- Are there German tenor trombone mouthpieces roughly comparable to Bach 5G, Bach 4G, and Bach 3G in size? Ditto if said mouthpieces date back to pre WWI or earlier.

Old German trombones have no lead pipes. The resistance must come from the mouthpiece. The bores are smaller. Rim sizes are also smaller although most players today use bigger rim sizes because they play also modern trombones. Moreover backbores are sometimes different. American trombone mouthpieces sound often fuzzy on German trombones.

I am using the Kruspe Weschke mouthpiece in my Kruspe Weschkes and Virtuosa (25 mm rim), a Kruspe 6 on my Kruspe bass trombone, a Schmidt Bambula TP 3 3/4 on my other German tenors like Penzel, Polter, Mönnich, etc., and a Kruspe alto mouthpiece on my Kruspe altos and my Heckel alto.

Have a look at Werner Chr. Schmidt mouthpieces.

https://www.schmidt-brass.de/englisch/m ... mbone.html

He is a mouthpiece maker making mouthpieces for many generations. His website shows all kinds of measurements for his mouthpieces. The Prof. Bambula series works typically very well with German trombones. He also has some copies of some old German mouthpieces such as the Kruspe Weschke or a copy of my Kruspe alto mouthpiece.

If you are interested in German trombones made today, look at Helmut Voigt

https://helmut-voigt.com/romantic-trombones/

wnlqxod wrote: ↑Sat Oct 21, 2023 2:58 pm Combining various materials that I cannot cite because I do not remember, with two of the sources being Doug Yeo and Jay Friedman, I gathered that

- German players had a strong influence in modern American trombone design
- Wagner just about single handedly began a paradigm shift in timbre taste from finesse to power; yet, there still exists 19th century designs that emphasize colour at piano, and playing even a "moderate forte" can be difficult on them
- There are 19th century German trombones that precisely take up a modern large shank mouthpiece

So then, I am wondering:

- In what ways is the modern North American horn different from the modern German horn?
- Are there any German horns with a handslide width comparable to the modern large bore wide crook width?
- Are there German tenor trombone mouthpieces roughly comparable to Bach 5G, Bach 4G, and Bach 3G in size? Ditto if said mouthpieces date back to pre WWI or earlier.

American trombones are essentially a hybrid of the French/British and German styles of instrument, combining the larger bore and bell (and very flared bell shape) of the German instruments with the cylindrical proportions and the general shape of the French/British style, brought together in American industrial mass-production efficiency and innovation (and cost reduction). There were heavy influences from both sides, in several waves through the 19th and early 20th century, both in terms of manufacturing and of immigrant players and/or imported instruments. I'm not sure I would say that the German style had a stronger influence. Just look at the early 20th century Conn models, much more in common with the French and British imports than to German trombones. Some other American brands were making more German-influenced instruments. They eventually met somewhere in between.

I would strongly disagree with the characterization that Wagner single-handedly changed the approach to the trombone. The romantic German trombone design evolved pretty much entirely independently from him, and predates his period of strong influence. The archetypal large-bore German trombone was already there in the 1830's. It wasn't commissioned by him the way certain instruments were invented specifically at his request. I also disagree that there was a sudden paradigm shift from finesse to power. That shift was already going on for several decades, gradually, and it didn't happen with or because of Wagner alone. It also didn't happen only in Germany, or in relation with German trombone designs, for that matter.

German trombones sound great soft, but it's not at all difficult to play loud (let alone "moderate forte"). In fact it can become really bright and laser beam and cut through the orchestral texture extremely well when pushed . What is however difficult is to play loud by blowing the same way you would to play loud on an American trombone (and in particular with a modern American mouthpiece), because the instrument backs up on you and then just sounds dull and uncentered. Obviously that's not how they were playing.

There are indeed German trombones that take a modern large shank, but really the receiver sizes are all over the place, and mostly in-between modern small and large shanks.

Modern German trombones are heavily hybridized and often more American style with a touch of German character than the opposite. Most German makers still offer traditional German designs, but that's not the norm anymore.

Mouthpieces sizes, yes for modern mouthpieces. Older ones, not so much. Mouthpieces sizes have been going up everywhere. Pre-WW1 American mouthpieces are smaller too. A 5G would have been considered quite big in those days, let alone a 3G.

bcschipper wrote: ↑Sun Oct 22, 2023 12:24 am A trombone played for many years by many principal trombone players is the Kruspe Weschke model, developed by Ed Kruspe with Paul Weschke, a famous trombonist at the beginning of the 19th century.

Make that "beginning of the 20th century" for Weschke.

Some American orchestras used German trombones, notably the Chicago Symphony Orchestra until Rodzinski had the trombonists change to American instruments in 1947/48.

Howard

Thank you. Yes, you are right. W.r.t. the Kruspe Weschke, I mean the beginning of the 20th Century. I will correct this.

This being said, I think idea that everybody played essentially on Weite 3 Penzel style trombone before that time is most likely wrong. There was some variation among German trombones in the 19th century (here I really mean the 19th century).

It appears that some orchestras in the US changed when their instruments got old, imports from Germany got difficult or politically inopportune, the classical music scene became more patriotic, American makers like Conn etc offered decent convenient instruments, and the acoustics of venues such as large movie theaters etc. did not make loud and overpowering instruments look bad. By the end of WWII, some famous German makers like Kruspe were in the Russian occupied zone, later East Germany, with limited opportunities to build new instruments and interact with their former clients in the US.