TromboneChat

Hello everyone!

In my eternal struggle to find the perfect instrument, I've acquired another bass trombone, a Getzen 3062AFR. I've been testing it out the last few days and it's been great! Big, fat sound, easy to play in the low range, lots of power, and I think it'd be perfect for classical/orchestral playing with the community bands and orchestras I sit in with.

The issue is that it doesn't have the fast response or 'bite' that I would need for jazz or pit orchestra playing. This got me thinking that instead of trying to change the Getzen to play better jazz, I could get a different horn for those purposes. I'm in a fortunate position that I would be able to do that, but the main question is: should I have two separate instruments, one for classical/orchestral and another for jazz/pit orchestra, or should I continue to look for something that will do both?

I've been using a Yamaha 830 recently and it's been good overall, but it is very 'unexciting' as other users have mentioned, and I can really tell after playing the Getzen.

Additional question: if I should get an additional horn, which one? My first thought was a duo gravis but I'd love to hear other suggestions!

Thanks for reading my ramblings, looking forward to reading the suggestions!

I think this video of Aidan's may help your thoughts on that:

The Getzen 3062AF has a pretty big slide but otherwise is fairly "down the middle" at least on paper. I use the same bass for commercial and jazz although I tend to use a shallower cup and smaller rim for commercial stuff. I would consider getting a Getzen 1052 slide or an Edwards slide and swap out for a Getzen receiver, especially one with nickel tubes and a .562 straight bore. It's not as easy to try before you buy though.

The 1052 and 1062 slides are interchangeable. At one time Getzen dealers used to let customers mix and match. For the record, the 1052 slide is single bore, and the 1062 slide is dual.

Tool for the job comes to mind. For me a Rath R9 red bell fills the symphonic side, with a yellow brass Getzen 1052 for my jazz horn. Was using Holton 180 for both, but like you, became able to have one horn for each setting. Happier now.

Yup, I have different horns for different situations.

I personally wouldn't get a Duo Gravis unless you dig dependent, and you play a smaller mouthpiece... they're great horns but there are also other great commercial horns. I use a Yamaha myself that is perfect for the job, a 630G.

Have you done any tinkering on the input side (leadpipe and mouthpiece) of the 3062?

I prefer the basses I have with 9.5" bells for big band. My collection of basses is large and I have both singles and doubles Most old and with regular rotor which fit my style. I avoid Axials because they are different in a bad way for me. For some bands with many old charts I use a single for everything. The few B's that turns up I can often do as fake tones. If I have any exposed low C's I often retune the F-att. The best singles I use for these big bands are Holton 169, Holton TR185, Holton TR183, Conn 70h, Conn 71h, Conn 72h, Yamaha 321 and Yamaha 322. If a double is needed I might use a Kanstul 1662, Conn 73h, King 6b or a Conn 62h these are the best commercial horns I use.

If I only was allowed one horn for commercial I would choose the Kanstul 1662.

/Tom

About 15 years ago, I had a student who played a 3062AF with the yellow bell. He really liked (and sounded great) with his G&W mouthpiece and #2 leadpipe for symphonic music. When he played in big band he switched to the #1 leadpipe that he had opened up a couple of thousandths of an inch. It gave him that quick response that he was looking for. I guess you could say it was probably “Getzen/Edwards 1.4 leadpipe.”

Just two?

You can have as many trombones as your wife has pairs of shoes right

Bach5G wrote: ↑Sat Sep 16, 2023 11:39 amJust two?

I need to develop my own bass trombone collection, alas.

I can easily see having a bunch of bass and other trombones to cover just these two genres. There's a huge difference that can be found playing a bass trombone part from Mozart versus Bruckner (for example) and of course it also depends on the stylistic quirks of the ensembles you find yourself in.

Thanks for the input guys!

I've messed around a little with the leadpipe/mouthpiece setup to get a jazzier sound, but it didn't quite get want I wanted. A single bore slide would also be an option, but then I'm getting into separate horn territory, so I might as well make a new setup. It's also quite heavy, so I'm thinking I'd like a physically lighter horn for jazz.

I'll have to keep an eye out for another good horn, so any good suggestions I should look for, other than the ones already mentioned?

Im curious... what does a jazzier sound mean? Im sure everyone has a slightly different concept. I find that my bass blends well with the saxophones in a big band but also with an orchestra low brass section. Of course, your mindset has to change a little bit. What makes a Holton the right choice, and a Bach or the wrong, when they both were modeled after the large throat Fuchs? With the Conn 7xh series i can see how the smaller throat would help blend with the smaller tenors... if we look a tenors, everything is smaller than a standard symphonic tenor, should that be the same for bass trombone? Would something like a Conn 71H with a bore between .547-.562 be the ultimate jazz bass trombone?

I like my commercial horn to have a bit less fundamental, more high overtones in the sound, as well as sounding "louder" at a lower input. Quick response as well of course. I understand how classic horns like the Duo Gravis or old Conns fit that for people, but there are plenty of more modern offerings that fit the bill.

My current Yamaha does all of this, all while being light and easy to play.

Can I do the "wrong" style on any of my basses? Sure. But the Shires wants to be played too loud to get that "loud" sound, the B&S does German things, and my Bachs are great but the yamaha is just better in this way.

For me, it's not so much about blending, it's mostly about the way the horn plays, responds, and sounds. For jazz playing, I like a horn that has a quick response and not such a dark sound. You could do any kind of playing on any horn, but some horns do some things better than others

I don't want to say Duo Gravis, but I have to say Duo Gravis sorry Aidan! Duo Gravis is a super fast responding horn in my opinion, definitely not a dark sound, but still a unique character that I often miss with Yamaha horns. But I'm sure there are modern horns that fit exactly this description.

A cheaper option is to have 1 horn, but different mouthpieces for the different styles.

I noticed you play a Yamaha. Why not buy a Yeo model (822 or 622 I believe)? They are dependent horns, but a tighter leadpipe works well on these horns.

Kbiggs wrote: ↑Sat Sep 16, 2023 7:01 pm I noticed you play a Yamaha. Why not buy a Yeo model (822 or 622 I believe)? They are dependent horns, but a tighter leadpipe works well on these horns.

IMO these are even more orchestral than the 830.

I thought about that, and saw the great deal on the 622 that's on the classifieds, but they mentioned it was more orchestral of a horn, like Aidan mentioned.

I actually ended up pulling the leadpipe on my 830 today and trying some Shires leadpipes, and it definitely did something. I haven't quite finished putting it together, but I think that may be a way to get it playing the way I'd like for one situation or the other

This might seem a bit off topic but for jazz I'm going to say that there is something to dual rotors, dependent and non that offers a "compression" of sound around low c and b that we have gotten accustomed to from a lot of the "older" (think like 60-70's) big band sounds, (thanks to those players) and commercial too, and it has a place. A newer analogy would be using plugins in digital audio to "saturate" harmonics and that is the kind of feel you get from a standard rotor set up- bubbly and compressed, the product of air and resistance pushing against each other and that can have a ballsy effect. Frank Zappa would say "putting eyebrows on it" . For classical (and jazz) it would be whatever fits in the section. Really everything works, that's up to the player's attributes so there is no wrong.

Elow wrote: ↑Sat Sep 16, 2023 12:56 pm Im curious... what does a jazzier sound mean? Im sure everyone has a slightly different concept. I find that my bass blends well with the saxophones in a big band but also with an orchestra low brass section. Of course, your mindset has to change a little bit. What makes a Holton the right choice, and a Bach or the wrong, when they both were modeled after the large throat Fuchs? With the Conn 7xh series i can see how the smaller throat would help blend with the smaller tenors... if we look a tenors, everything is smaller than a standard symphonic tenor, should that be the same for bass trombone? Would something like a Conn 71H with a bore between .547-.562 be the ultimate jazz bass trombone?

When I think of bass trombone for jazz or commercial I think of something that makes it easy to function as the lowest part in a big band trombone section and also can be the horn to use for a jazz solo in that setting. Since I play first part and second as often as I play bass I know what I would want from the bass when I'm on those other parts. Most important is what I want when I'm on first. I want a distinct bass sound that I can lock into with my sound on first. I need the higher frequencies in the bass sound to reach me. When I listen to a big band in front I want to hear the bass higher frequencies as sparkles and I want it too project well without drowning everything around. When I play bass myself I want the response to be quick to make short percussive articulations easy and dynamics need to be there too with ease. I also want my sound and articulation to blend well with the smaller horns, and in the higher register I want it to be easy to shrink my sound if the part is high and more of a 4:th tenor part, maybe in unison with the others. When I play a solo on bass I want it to be as fluent as a tenor but just an octave lower. I have no need to solo in the pedal register, more a need to solo and cut through in the staff.

In some newer arrangements the bass trombone is written as if it sits in it's own section. It might be used along with the bari sax or the electruc bass or it can have a lot of counter parts written in the low register. This is when I need a double.

I didn't list my single valve Bach 50B because it is more of a classical horn to me and not the double valve Holton TR180 or Benge 290 because they give me a deeper and more velvety sound. Of course the Conn 62H can be used as a classical bass too. I could continue and make this list with horns I do not use longer but I rather concentrate on what I like than what I don't like (yet, it could change). All can be used for anything with the right mouthpiece and right approach. Anyway something within me decides what horns ro bring and makes things easy, this is how I tend to choose.

/Tom

Another solution would be to use two different leadpipes in a bass trombone that has the option. Something bright and zippy like a nickel BrassArk GR pipe for jazz and commercial work, and a yellow or copper 50 pipe for orchestral work. The leadpipe makes a huge difference to how a horn responds and sounds, so as long as you have a reasonably middle-of-the-road bass trombone I think it would do both jobs nicely. I would probably go that route myself if I had a bass with removable pipes.

Elow wrote: ↑Sat Sep 16, 2023 12:56 pmWould something like a Conn 71H with a bore between .547-.562 be the ultimate jazz bass trombone?

Having played single 72Hs in big bands, I struggle to think how anything could be better for that job from a sound perspective. But it is of course hard work from a technical perspective, especially with the low and agile modern big band bass trombone parts that are the norm. As a result, I could only justify keeping a single 7xH around if I was playing frequent gigs in a swing band playing only Basie charts and the like, as that stuff is easily doable on a single.

My compromise was to get a double-valve 72H, which I use for everything (even Mahler). But many players would probably prefer a broader/darker sound for the orchestra, so then you're back to having two horns.

Leadpipe and mouthpiece choices can definitely really change how a horn responds and / or sounds. A Ferguson Minick L replica (or an original Minick if you can find one) would be quite similar to what a lot of LA session players were using in the 1980s or so. From what I've noticed at least, most of the mouthpiece designs / development in the past 20 or so years has been mostly geared towards orchestral playing.

IMHO, the Marcinkiewicz bass trombone line is also good if you want some serious edge on your playing. They are lightweight so some might consider them hard the control. All I know is that with an EBT2 Phil Teele, I was easily able to get edge on regular volume notes, even on my Yamaha 830.

I’m satisfied with the effect of mouthpiece change with my Holton TR-180 (9.5” unsoldered yellow brass bell) for different styles. Marcinkiewicz EBT3 for big band, EBT1 for middle of the road and Bach (or Rath) 1 1/4G for the darkest, broadest sound.

It would be pretty hard for me to find space for a livelier setup with faster response than that horn with the shallower mouthpiece, it works great for lighter playing as it is. If I had unlimited funds and enough practice time to dedicate to it, I could only really justify something significantly bigger and darker, would probably be some sort of dual bore with Bach-inspired bell section.

MrHCinDE wrote: ↑Sun Sep 17, 2023 1:18 pm I’m satisfied with the effect of mouthpiece change with my Holton TR-180 (9.5” unsoldered yellow brass bell) for different styles. Marcinkiewicz EBT3 for big band, EBT1 for middle of the road and Bach (or Rath) 1 1/4G for the darkest, broadest sound.

This has made me want to pick up some more Marcinkiewicz mouthpieces, though the Reichenbach mouthpiece seems pretty big at 1.131 in / 28.72mm. His Schilke mouthpiece is "listed" at 28.17, significantly smaller. I have however heard that the way Marcinkiewicz measures their cup diameter is a bit different than most.

The word that comes to mind with the EBT3 is efficient. It plays like nothing else in my collection.

Yeah, the EBT1 certainly isn’t small but on my face it does closer to a Bach 1 1/2 G than a 1 1/4G and I find articulations less effort than both Bach pieces.

Finetales wrote: ↑Sun Sep 17, 2023 11:02 am Another solution would be to use two different leadpipes in a bass trombone that has the option. Something bright and zippy like a nickel BrassArk GR pipe for jazz and commercial work, and a yellow or copper 50 pipe for orchestral work. The leadpipe makes a huge difference to how a horn responds and sounds, so as long as you have a reasonably middle-of-the-road bass trombone I think it would do both jobs nicely. I would probably go that route myself if I had a bass with removable pipes.

Elow wrote: ↑Sat Sep 16, 2023 12:56 pmWould something like a Conn 71H with a bore between .547-.562 be the ultimate jazz bass trombone?

Having played single 72Hs in big bands, I struggle to think how anything could be better for that job from a sound perspective. But it is of course hard work from a technical perspective, especially with the low and agile modern big band bass trombone parts that are the norm. As a result, I could only justify keeping a single 7xH around if I was playing frequent gigs in a swing band playing only Basie charts and the like, as that stuff is easily doable on a single.

My compromise was to get a double-valve 72H, which I use for everything (even Mahler). But many players would probably prefer a broader/darker sound for the orchestra, so then you're back to having two horns.

I'm thinking of perhaps trying a nickel #2 leadpipe for my Shires bass for commercial situations. Maybe even a #1.5 or 1. I would consider my bass to be middle of the road. It sounds great and blends well in both orchestral and big band situations, but for jazz I want something just a little snappier

Note: I consolidated 3 of JeffBone44's responses into the one response above.