TromboneChat

Does anyone know of a Yamaha Tenor that is most like the horn Bill Watrous played? I think his style is so melodic and his tone is so right on. I am not saying I have to have his equipment to emulate him, but I am what could best be described as a “Yamah-auler”, I have played Yamaha instruments most of my life. Even rode Yamaha motorcycles a lot. Just wondering.

Honestly, none. The only horn like a 16M is a 16M.

Spec-wise, the 891z or maybe the older 691 would be the closest, but I wouldn't say they are really similar.

Please don’t take any offense, absolutely none intended, but do teachers tell their top students they can only get a used or new horn that costs as much as three times what others cost? There are professionals that are Yamaha stars, I know manufactures make their horns to the pro’s specs. Do these pro’s tell Yamaha I want a horn like a Bach or Conn or King, etc? Again, just a question that has been on my mind

I have to admit I don't know what you're asking.

Trhtrbn wrote: ↑Fri Aug 18, 2023 11:16 am Please don’t take any offense, absolutely none intended, but do teachers tell their top students they can only get a used or new horn that costs as much as three times what others cost? There are professionals that are Yamaha stars, I know manufactures make their horns to the pro’s specs. Do these pro’s tell Yamaha I want a horn like a Bach or Conn or King, etc? Again, just a question that has been on my mind

??? Go ask a Yamaha pro. I personally wouldn't have the b@lls to ask Yamaha to make "something like Bach". I'm sure they'd find that insulting. Yamaha horns seem to have a totally different personality from other brands. If you like that vibe, cool. Small bore Bachs are a totally different personality. Ask a Camaro guy to set up your Camaro like a Mustang, and see what he has to say to you. If you like the Bach, get the Bach.

There was more to Watrous than a 16M, though. A cotton paisley tunic, wire rim sunglasses, a long bowl haircut or the microphone/settings he used would all be equal contenders.

Could you make a 891z sound like Watrous? Watrous probably could.If you're really hung up on getting a Yamaha to sound like Watrous, the 891z or 691 would be the places to start, but there are a lot of other things that are harder to get that would seem more important. Like that tunic.

Burgerbob wrote: ↑Fri Aug 18, 2023 11:26 am I have to admit I don't know what you're asking.

My question is, is a top of the line horn necessary to sound good?

Trhtrbn wrote: ↑Fri Aug 18, 2023 11:47 am

Burgerbob wrote: ↑Fri Aug 18, 2023 11:26 am I have to admit I don't know what you're asking.

My question is, is a top of the line horn necessary to sound good?

At higher levels, the player will sound largely similar (though not the same, IMO!) on anything you put in their hands. But those same players also want their job to be as easy as possible, so they play the best thing they can find within reason. That's usually not going to be a student horn.

IMO, this is why you see lots of orchestral and jazz pros on newer instruments. They don't have the same "interesting" sound as vintage stuff, but they're simply easier to play.

Burgerbob wrote: ↑Fri Aug 18, 2023 11:51 am

Trhtrbn wrote: ↑Fri Aug 18, 2023 11:47 am

My question is, is a top of the line horn necessary to sound good?

At higher levels, the player will sound largely similar (though not the same, IMO!) on anything you put in their hands. But those same players also want their job to be as easy as possible, so they play the best thing they can find within reason. That's usually not going to be a student horn.

IMO, this is why you see lots of orchestral and jazz pros on newer instruments. They don't have the same "interesting" sound as vintage stuff, but they're simply easier to play.

Thank you

Trhtrbn wrote: ↑Fri Aug 18, 2023 10:44 am Does anyone know of a Yamaha Tenor that is most like the horn Bill Watrous played? I think his style is so melodic and his tone is so right on.

Sorry, but no matter what trombone you play, you'll never sound like Bill Watrous.
(There's a lot that went into what you perceive as his "sound.")
Conversely, no matter what trombone Bill Watrous played, he'd still sound like Bill Watrous.

Burgerbob wrote: ↑Fri Aug 18, 2023 11:04 am Honestly, none. The only horn like a 16M is a 16M.

This.

Trhtrbn wrote: ↑Fri Aug 18, 2023 11:16 am Please don’t take any offense, absolutely none intended, but do teachers tell their top students they can only get a used or new horn that costs as much as three times what others cost? There are professionals that are Yamaha stars, I know manufactures make their horns to the pro’s specs. Do these pro’s tell Yamaha I want a horn like a Bach or Conn or King, etc? Again, just a question that has been on my mind

I think you should really stop worrying about things like this, and more on playing. Obsessing over gear constantly is not really an effective strategy to improve playing. Having an instrument that works well with your playing is important for any style. I'm not sure why you're bringing cost into this, as there are plenty of used instruments that are relatively affordable abut also professional class on the market.

Trhtrbn wrote: ↑Fri Aug 18, 2023 11:16 am Please don’t take any offense, absolutely none intended, but do teachers tell their top students they can only get a used or new horn that costs as much as three times what others cost?

NO

Trhtrbn wrote: ↑Fri Aug 18, 2023 11:16 am Do these pro’s tell Yamaha I want a horn like a Bach or Conn or King, etc?

NO

For that matter, I think you’d have trouble having Bach make you a 16M like Bill’s. It wasn’t an off the shelf part and iirc he played a NY bell. Pro Yamaha small bores do bear a lot of similarities on paper, including most being one-piece bells with a soldered bell bead. The ones I played from Yamaha at ATW a couple of months ago were really good. Especially the ones they had with cut bells. I wouldn’t describe them as being like a 16 in as much as any small bore plays like another. But that isn’t a bad thing… I really am not a fan of how most Bach small bores play.

Spec wise the LT16M is a 509 with a 7.5 bell right? That would be like taking the slide from the 891 and putting with the bell of a 897. I don’t believe Yamaha offers that combination although I have that setup at home. As far as the sound goes, every horn is different and the sound Watrous got was a combination of instrument, mouthpiece and his physical makeup (and the sound he had in his head). Every player has different chops and a different sound concept.

Now as far as Yamaha instruments go (I’ve been playing them for many years now) I honestly never want my horns to sound interesting or have they own very specific sound. I prefer them to be neutral or what some people might describe as bland. This allows me to do a lot more with the sound of the instrument. I can switch between an edgy lead sound and a much more lyrical one because my horn doesn’t really lean one way or the other. It puts out what I put into it and I can also do a lot with just a mouthpiece change. Hope that makes sense.

lmalewic wrote: ↑Wed Aug 23, 2023 7:29 amNow as far as Yamaha instruments go (I’ve been playing them for many years now) I honestly never want my horns to sound interesting or have they own very specific sound. I prefer them to be neutral or what some people might describe as bland. This allows me to do a lot more with the sound of the instrument. I can switch between an edgy lead sound and a much more lyrical one because my horn doesn’t really lean one way or the other. It puts out what I put into it and I can also do a lot with just a mouthpiece change. Hope that makes sense.

This is exactly why I like their bass trombones. I had for a while considered selling off all my horns and going all Yamaha in the past. Some people don't like how they play, and I get that, but I like their versatility.

tbonesullivan wrote: ↑Wed Aug 23, 2023 8:10 am

lmalewic wrote: ↑Wed Aug 23, 2023 7:29 amNow as far as Yamaha instruments go (I’ve been playing them for many years now) I honestly never want my horns to sound interesting or have they own very specific sound. I prefer them to be neutral or what some people might describe as bland. This allows me to do a lot more with the sound of the instrument. I can switch between an edgy lead sound and a much more lyrical one because my horn doesn’t really lean one way or the other. It puts out what I put into it and I can also do a lot with just a mouthpiece change. Hope that makes sense.

This is exactly why I like their bass trombones. I had for a while considered selling off all my horns and going all Yamaha in the past. Some people don't like how they play, and I get that, but I like their versatility.

I own the 830 and it works great for my needs. I’ve toyed with the idea of getting the bell cut on it and might still do that with the same rings they use for the new 835. We’ll see.

Burgerbob wrote: ↑Fri Aug 18, 2023 11:04 am Honestly, none. The only horn like a 16M is a 16M.

BurgerBob:

I agree. MY LT16M has a very smooth sound...less edgy than my King a3B.

Both have their place.

Carl

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musicofnote wrote: ↑Fri Aug 25, 2023 3:25 am

Trhtrbn wrote: ↑Fri Aug 18, 2023 11:47 am
My question is, is a top of the line horn necessary to sound good?

The trumpet star Adolph Herseth supposedly on a bet played a Selmer Bundy trumpet in the Chicago Symphony and no one noticed. A really good player can get enough of what he wants from any instrument. Of course his favorite instrument will facilitate that more, but the result would be pretty much the same.

A few months ago a good friend of mine bought a Bundy trombone for $50 from a pawn shop.

She let me try it....I was stunned, after having just tried some $3000 type horns.

It played just as well as anything I've ever tried! Even better than some. It played so well and had such a great sound and feel that I had to stop playing it. It was too nice! I didn't want to know about it, as I'd just change my setup and am loving what I use.

She won't sell it. Smart lady!