TromboneChat

I belong to a community orchestra. I see our first concert of the upcoming season features a Rachmaninov symphony. I do not think we should be performing Russian music while Russia continues to occupy Ukraine.

I did not stand by my principles last season. I played Isle of the Dead and Shostakovich 5. I raised the issue with a director of the orchestra during one of the early rehearsals of the Shostakovich. I was informed that the matter had been discussed by the directors and it was agreed that because Shostakovich had his own issues with the Stalin regime, it was okay for us to perform it.

But the war continues. And I read about an Estonian concert master who resigned rather than perform Russian music. Yesterday a Ukrainian fencer was stripped of her championship when she refused to shake her Russian opponent’s hand following the match.

I understand your concern.

Personally, I'd feel that programming the Rach AND including some concrete action like a collection/donation from ticket sales to a relief charity would make a far stronger and more compelling institutional statement (shared culture vs current crime and tragedy, etc) than either "simply" playing it or not playing it.

Long dead composers have nothing to do with the current regime, and some had problems with Russia as it was (see Shostakovich). It's good music, play away.

It's less controversial to ply Tchaikovsky than Wagner imo

ithinknot wrote: ↑Fri Jul 28, 2023 10:43 am Personally, I'd feel that programming the Rach AND including some concrete action like a collection/donation from ticket sales to a relief charity would make a far stronger and more compelling institutional statement (shared culture vs current crime and tragedy, etc) than either "simply" playing it or not playing it.

I agree. It would be appropriate to recognize the evil and horror of the current situation in Ukraine by positive action (such as that suggested), and not take out our anger on long-dead, innocent composers or their (sometimes inspiring) music.

I wouldn't play anything written by Putin! The other Russian composers have nothing to do with the invasion of Ukraine.

Stewbones43

I wouldn't play anything Putin has written, but everything else I think is pretty safe. It's not the Russian people who have committed these crimes, it's Putin. Most Russian music was written under a completely different Russian government separated by revolutions. Canceling every vestige of remote connection to an evil power sometimes just goes too far. The link between composers like Tchaikovsky, Borodin and Kabalevsky and the person making terrible decisions is distant.

Russian culture isn't killing Ukrainians, it's one self absorbed narcissist. You're not going to hurt Putin by canceling Shostakovitch or Rachmaninov.

If you have a problem with it personally, stay home, but allow other people the right to make up their own mind about it.

Should those who think Biden is a "traitor" (as some have accused) refuse to play music by American composers?

If Trump is re-elected, should those who oppose him do the same?

Isn't all this rather misplaced anger?

Can we find a way to turn our strong emotions into something positive?

It is beautiful music written a long time ago by those, as it has already been pointed out, who had problems with Russia at the time. Enough with cancel culture.

“Enough with cancel culture.”

If only Russia would stop trying to cancel Ukraine.

“It’s less controversial to pl[a]y Tchaikovsky than Wagner imo.”

WW2 was over 75 years ago. Germany is now considered a good global citizen. The Russian SMO continues. The attempted extermination of the Ukraine people is ongoing in real time.

“Isn't all this rather misplaced anger?”

Misplaced? Is the Russian occupation of Ukraine morally equivalent to American culture wars? Are Hunter Biden and Prighozin equivalent? Russians kill and maim Ukrainians everyday. Misplaced anger? No. I think anger is justified and genuine.


The Estonian concert master when asked about Russian music replied that Russian culture was safe, that it was in no danger. It will survive. It was not under attack.

TBF, the orch did perform a Ukrainian program last fall.

Playing Russian music is not promoting Russia. I'm not sure of your connection there.

Reason Wagner is more controversial is because he personally held some rather unsavory views and wrote about them rather extensively, not because he lived in Prussia. Likewise, someone like Tchaikovsky lived in the Tsarist Russian Empire, a country that hasn't existed in over 100 years.

Bach5G wrote: ↑Fri Jul 28, 2023 1:06 pm “Isn't all this rather misplaced anger?”

Misplaced? Is the Russian occupation of Ukraine morally equivalent to American culture wars? Are Hunter Biden and Prighozin equivalent? Russians kill and maim Ukrainians everyday. Misplaced anger? No. I think anger is justified and genuine.

Of course I'm as angry at Putin and Prighozin and the Ukrainian invasion as you and other reasonable people are.
But I'm not angry at Tchaikovsky or Stravinsky or Rimsky or Prokofiev or Shostakovich or Rachmaninoff (who became alienated from Russia and was naturalized as a U.S. Citizen in 1943!), whose music I treasure and enjoy performing and listening to, and who have nothing to do with the current evil.

Posaunus wrote: ↑Fri Jul 28, 2023 12:13 pm Should those who think Biden is a "traitor" (as some have accused) refuse to play music by American composers?

If Trump is re-elected, should those who oppose him do the same?

Isn't all this rather misplaced anger?

Can we find a way to turn our strong emotions into something positive?

Not the same thing, but it's worth pointing out that there are many musicians who refuse to allow Trump to play their music. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Musicians ... heir_music

I guess the Russian arrangement of Lassus Trombone is a no go, huh?

officermayo wrote: ↑Fri Jul 28, 2023 2:15 pm I guess the Russian arrangement of Lassus Trombone is a no go, huh?

I was going to tie that in but I didn't want to touch the third rail

Matt K wrote: ↑Fri Jul 28, 2023 2:16 pm

officermayo wrote: ↑Fri Jul 28, 2023 2:15 pm I guess the Russian arrangement of Lassus Trombone is a no go, huh?

I was going to tie that in but I didn't want to touch the third rail

Yeah, you're right.

I crack up over the thought that not playing a piece of music has any impact on the situation in Ukraine. Must be some kind of musician's super power I've yet to attain during my 64 trips around the Sun. Reminds me of how American Southerners in the 1960s thought they were hurting the Beatles by burning their records THAT THEY HAD ALREADY BOUGHT.

"We'll show those limeys a thing or two about saying they're more popular than JEEZUSSS!!! Let's burn these albums the Beatles have already gotten our money from".

Bach5G wrote: ↑Fri Jul 28, 2023 1:06 pm “Enough with cancel culture.”

If only Russia would stop trying to cancel Ukraine.

“It’s less controversial to pl[a]y Tchaikovsky than Wagner imo.”

WW2 was over 75 years ago. Germany is now considered a good global citizen. The Russian SMO continues. The attempted extermination of the Ukraine people is ongoing in real time.

“Isn't all this rather misplaced anger?”

Misplaced? Is the Russian occupation of Ukraine morally equivalent to American culture wars? Are Hunter Biden and Prighozin equivalent? Russians kill and maim Ukrainians everyday. Misplaced anger? No. I think anger is justified and genuine.


The Estonian concert master when asked about Russian music replied that Russian culture was safe, that it was in no danger. It will survive. It was not under attack.

TBF, the orch did perform a Ukrainian program last fall.

How does the music of a bunch of dead Russians effect you so? It is this misplaced anger that is at the heart of cancel culture, of which you are an active participant.

Would you really be playing "Russian music?"

Rachmaninov lived all over Europe and America, including Stockholm, Paris, Dresden, Copenhagen, and began touring the U.S. in 1909. Eventually he fled Russia forever, fleeing its politics in 1917 and never returned. He moved from Russia to Denmark in 1917, then moved to the United States in 1918 and lived in the U.S. until he died. He lived in New York and San Francisco, then eventually moved to Beverly Hills, California where he remained until he died, and his funeral was in the Silver Lake area of Los Angeles, and his body is buried somewhere in New York. All told, he lived in the U.S. since he was 33 years old and while he was born in Russia, he died a U.S. citizen.

This is a guy who performed with and conducted the Boston Symphony in 1909-10, did recitals at Smith College in MA, performed with the New York Symphony under Mahler, turned down offers to conduct the Cincinnati Symphony and another season with the Boston Symphony to stay in New York, but arranged and conducted the Star Spangled Banner with Boston, performed and conducted his Symphony No. 3 and The Bells with the Cleveland Orchestra and the Chicago Symphony, and recorded a whole bunch of things in Cleveland and Los Angeles. He was even a member of the American Federation of Musicians, Local 47 (Los Angeles), and actually played the Hollywood Bowl while living in L.A.

So, would you really be playing "Russian" music? Or would you be playing the music of a guy who fled his birth country due to its politics and became an American citizen? Could it be that, in this case at least, your principles are a bit misplaced?

Not everything is political. Try to separate the art of a long dead composer born in Russia from the politics more than a hundred years later of that country that has even changed its name three times since then. Rachmaninov was born in imperial Russia, before there was even a Soviet Union, before it fell, and before Russia became the strong man federation state it is today. He had nothing to do with modern Russia. Didn't even live there. Wasn't even a citizen.

Fair enough with respect to Rachmaninov.

Similar situation with Stravinsky: lived in France 1-34-45, U.S. from 1945 on.

Prokofiev (who died on the same day as Stalin) and Shostakovich both had terrible run-ins with the Communist state. Both fled to the West for a while, and both returned home to Russia (to be persecuted again). Neither would be on Putin's good side were they alive today.

Last summer I played 1812. The parts had Great Gate at Kiev inserted where the Russian national anthem goes at the end instead of the anthem. It was actually quite effective. The cut worked well and it made a point. It didn’t feel like a good time to be playing the Russian anthem.

Kdanielsen wrote: ↑Fri Jul 28, 2023 3:56 pm Last summer I played 1812. The parts had Great Gate at Kiev inserted where the Russian national anthem goes at the end instead of the anthem. It was actually quite effective. The cut worked well and it made a point. It didn’t feel like a good time to be playing the Russian anthem.

Wow. What a great idea! Even though "Great Gate of Kiev" was written by Mussorgsky as a descriptive of an artwork and not an anthem, it's still a great idea.

I'm not sure what Russia is using as a National Anthem. The Internationale was adopted by the Soviets, while the one it replaced (and was used in 1812) was called "God Save the Tsar" and I'm not sure Putin wants to use that.

BGuttman wrote: ↑Fri Jul 28, 2023 4:11 pm I'm not sure what Russia is using as a National Anthem. The Internationale was adopted by the Soviets, while the one it replaced (and was used in 1812) was called "God Save the Tsar" and I'm not sure Putin wants to use that.

Why not? I think Putin actually thinks of himself as a modern-day Tsar, upholding the glory of mother Russia!

I will have to update my music history to add Rachmaninov and Stravinsky to the list of American composers.

Arnold Schoenberg too. He and Stravinsky both lived in LA for a time.

Matt K wrote: ↑Fri Jul 28, 2023 1:32 pm Reason Wagner is more controversial is because he personally held some rather unsavory views and wrote about them rather extensively, not because he lived in Prussia. Likewise, someone like Tchaikovsky lived in the Tsarist Russian Empire, a country that hasn't existed in over 100 years.

Not the real topic of the thread, but I just want to add to this: At the time Wagner lived, it was kind of 'normal' and a typical socially accepted position in the German Reich and the 'states' before. Still, it's a difference to just share a very common position or being very much into a topic and writing books and other texts that are definitely inhuman against people of other cultures and religions even if it's socially accepted at that time, I guess. But still it's something to keep in mind when talking about it. It's a very difficult topic and German culture is in general not easy in some ways, because Nazi Germany abused so much for their propaganda. Wagner of course was their showpiece (he was long dead by then). It's also one of the reasons why we don't have real German folk music anymore, because it was abused as well.

I would probably share the opinion about the old Russian masters of composers and it should be fine to play them as they don't promote Russia. But I feel like it is the right call to not support artists that are very close to the current Russian regime.

EriKon wrote: ↑Fri Jul 28, 2023 5:02 pm Not the real topic of the thread, but I just want to add to this: At the time Wagner lived, it was kind of 'normal' and a typical socially accepted position in the German Reich and the 'states' before. Still, it's a difference to just share a very common position or being very much into a topic and writing books and other texts that are definitely inhuman against people of other cultures and religions even if it's socially accepted at that time, I guess. But still it's something to keep in mind when talking about it.

The level of social acceptance for such things in Wagner’s lifetime does not diminish his level of anti-Semitism. It’s not as if he somehow became associated with anti-Semitism from the way he was celebrated by the Third Reich without reason.

On the original topic of Rachmaninoff, I personally wouldn’t have a problem playing it. I don’t see that anything he wrote supports or celebrates the actions of the present day tyrant.

On Wagner, I’m a little torn, it is indeed beautiful music but I’ve heard first hand from some fellow Germans (and other nationalities) who I know to hold quite right-wing views that he is their favourite composer exactly because of his political views and because of some cultural alignment with those who also held him in high esteem. This does not mean the majority of the population by any means and I wouldn’t support erasing or cancelling Wagner, but we shouldn’t forget that some people still celebrate him for non-music reasons and should also keep this in mind as part of the debate, which incidentally I’m glad we can have as members of a free and democratic society.

BGuttman wrote: ↑Fri Jul 28, 2023 4:11 pm

Kdanielsen wrote: ↑Fri Jul 28, 2023 3:56 pm Last summer I played 1812. The parts had Great Gate at Kiev inserted where the Russian national anthem goes at the end instead of the anthem. It was actually quite effective. The cut worked well and it made a point. It didn’t feel like a good time to be playing the Russian anthem.

Wow. What a great idea! Even though "Great Gate of Kiev" was written by Mussorgsky as a descriptive of an artwork and not an anthem, it's still a great idea.

I'm not sure what Russia is using as a National Anthem. The Internationale was adopted by the Soviets, while the one it replaced (and was used in 1812) was called "God Save the Tsar" and I'm not sure Putin wants to use that.

God Save the Tsar (the anthem quoted by Tchaikovsky at the end of 1812) hasn't been the Russian national anthem for over a century, and two regimes ago. It has nothing to do with either communist Russia (in fact it was banned in the USSR), or the Putin regime. Not entirely sure why it needs to be replaced by anything today? In fact it is the Russians themselves who used to replace it with other anthems in Marche Slave and 1812 during the sovietic era.

The Soviet Union did use the Internationale as its national anthem in the early decades, they switched to their definitive anthem in 1944. Post-soviet Russia is still using the 1944 soviet anthem melody today, just with different lyrics.

Rachmaninoff better not get canceled. His second piano concerto is one of the singular greatest works of human genius of all time.

Do we cancel Kasparov's recorded chess games and not study them?

harrisonreed wrote: ↑Sat Jul 29, 2023 7:38 pm Rachmaninoff better not get canceled. His second piano concerto is one of the singular greatest works of human genius of all time.

Do we cancel Kasparov's recorded chess games and not study them?

Interesting example here. Kasparov is and was a huge critic of "the regime" and is Armenian. Spassky might be more apt, though he had his own criticisms of his own place and time. Karpov would be the better example...but point taken ^_^.

I don’t think there should be a total, permanent ban on Russian music but perhaps as long as Russia continues to occupy parts of Ukraine.

Purely symbolic of course. Obviously it would not make a whit of difference to Putin. But maybe a show of solidarity with Ukraine. And, it might help keep the matter in the public consciousness.

Perhaps it is a bigger issue here in the GWN. Wikipedia says Canada is home to 1.4 million people of Ukrainian descent – the world's second largest Ukrainian diaspora after Russia. My maternal grandparents were of Ukr origin.

I don't think anyone is siding with Russia here. But Russian music has very, very little to do with Russia currently.

Why do you conflate the two?

MrHCinDE wrote: ↑Sat Jul 29, 2023 3:59 pm ... I’ve heard first hand from some fellow Germans (and other nationalities) who I know to hold quite right-wing views that [Wagner] is their favourite composer exactly because of his political views and because of some cultural alignment with those who also held him in high esteem.

I was not aware that this is still a "thing" in Germany. As it is, unfortunately, here in the U.S.A.

Neo Bri wrote: ↑Sat Jul 29, 2023 8:02 pm
Interesting example here. Kasparov is and was a huge critic of "the regime" and is Armenian. Spassky might be more apt, though he had his own criticisms of his own place and time. Karpov would be the better example...but point taken ^_^.

Yes, you're totally right. Some of the composers listed here might be more akin to Kasparov, maybe.

Bach5G wrote: ↑Sat Jul 29, 2023 8:40 pm I don’t think there should be a total, permanent ban on Russian music but perhaps as long as Russia continues to occupy parts of Ukraine.

Purely symbolic of course. Obviously it would not make a whit of difference to Putin. But maybe a show of solidarity with Ukraine. And, it might help keep the matter in the public consciousness.

I'll still contend that directing our anger (even symbolically) at Russian composers (or composers who fled from Russia or who have Russian names) is essentially fruitless. The Ukraine "matter" and its evil nature remains in our public consciousness.

Perhaps it is a bigger issue here in the GWN.

What is the "GWN" ?

Great White North.

We’ll have to disagree about this. In my view - and I am in the minority on this - is no Russian music, no Russian tennis players. Kick the Russian players out of the NHL (OV out!). No Russian culture of any sort until the atrocities and war crimes cease.

Sorry. I get it now. I'm not up on pop culture references. I'll leave it at that.

Posaunus wrote: ↑Sat Jul 29, 2023 9:04 pm I was not aware that this is still a "thing" in Germany. As is is, unfortunately, here in the U.S.A.

Thankfully it is a very small minority but you can read here for some quantification of the reported number of antisemitic incidents:
https://www.report-antisemitism.de/doc ... S_2022.pdf

One example from the report is:

“At the premises of an association that promotes anti-fascist and anti-racist youth work, attendees were attacked by a right-wing extremist group with beer bottles and stones and subjected to antisemitic insults. Members of the attacking group repeatedly gave the Hitler salute and shouted at the attendees: “Come out, you bloody Jews!” Previously, they had tried to set fire to objects in the backyard of the association’s building.”

This reported incident did not occur during the Third Reich, it happened in 2022. There are also very deeply concerning racist/xenophobic WhatsApp groups for police officers which have come to light in recent years. We cannot afford to take our eye off the ball and giving very careful thought before choosing to play Wagner is part of that.

Did we lose a post from Bach5G somewhere?

Edit: Never mind; I see it now.

MrHCinDE wrote: ↑Sat Jul 29, 2023 3:59 pm The level of social acceptance for such things in Wagner’s lifetime does not diminish his level of anti-Semitism. It’s not as if he somehow became associated with anti-Semitism from the way he was celebrated by the Third Reich without reason.

Absolutely not, never said that. It's just something that people keep forgetting to view a topic from a historic perspective. And as I also said: It's a huge difference from just sharing a socially accepted position to being an active author initiating and actively proclaiming anti-Semitism.

Posaunus wrote: ↑Sat Jul 29, 2023 9:04 pm I was not aware that this is still a "thing" in Germany. As is is, unfortunately, here in the U.S.A.

Oh, it was never gone. There were people killed by Nazis over here basically since WWII and it's getting more in the last 40 years. And unfortunately people are voting again for a potentially right-wing extrimist party (which is right now on 2nd position in polls). I'm afraid many Germans have forgotten about our history. Although many of those people (who are voting for that party) would never see themselves as being racists when in fact their actions and opinions definitely show the opposite.

Bach5G wrote: ↑Sat Jul 29, 2023 9:21 pm Great White North.

We’ll have to disagree about this. In my view - and I am in the minority on this - is no Russian music, no Russian tennis players. Kick the Russian players out of the NHL (OV out!). No Russian culture of any sort until the atrocities and war crimes cease.

OK. So I am supposed to refuse teaching my Russian students just because they happen to have been born in a country with a madman leader? What about an Iranian student, should I refuse too? Where do I draw the line? I guess Americans are okay now that Iraq and Afghanistan are over, but a few years ago I should have stood on principle and refused to teach them too? Should we not, as Canadians, be barred from everywhere including our home country until we repair the results of the cultural genocide we perpetrated against the Indigenous peoples of Canada (acts of which were still happening in my lifetime — and I'm not old!)?

I have a couple of Russian friends who got harassed in Germany after they were heard speaking Russian to each other, and followed around and threatened and told to go back to Russia, that Russians are not welcome in Germany because of the invasion. Was that right? What about the fact that it happened when they were in the middle of collecting and delivering donations for Ukrainian refugees?

I'm sorry, but this kind of all-or-nothing approach, this conception of solidarity that requires viewing an entire population as the enemy irrespective of the individuals' actions or beliefs, is a large part of why we have wars in the first place. It's dehumanizing, and it allows reasonable and kind people to hate other people they otherwise wouldn't be capable of hating.

Fully agree^.

What even is “Russian” in this context? My wife is technically a citizen of both the US and Russia. But she’s not ethnically Russian. Should she be ostracized from public life until she flies back to Russia and solves the conflict with her bare hands? What about someone who is ethnically “Russian” but hasn’t been involved in lRussia” for several generations?

As noted, Tchaikovsky has utterly nothing to do with current geopolitics having died in the 1800s. His government dissolved in the early 1900s. Even the language that he spoke and wrote has been significantly modified since his death.

EriKon wrote: ↑Sun Jul 30, 2023 3:19 am Absolutely not, never said that. It's just something that people keep forgetting to view a topic from a historic perspective. And as I also said: It's a huge difference from just sharing a socially accepted position to being an active author initiating and actively proclaiming anti-Semitism.

I think it’s pretty clear that Wagner was more the latter.

Just to avoid any miscommunication which can occur with online exchanges, I am definitely not suggesting that EriKon is some sort of Nazi sympatizer and appreciate his point of view that you also have to think about the historical context.

This smacks to me of the German/Italian/Japanese discrimination in WWII United States, or the widespread anti-Muslim sentiments after 9/11. A knee-jerk, useless, and self-destructive exercise.

Lots of interesting points.

Aidan: no one is suggesting interning American citizens of Russian origin. No one thinks interning German POWs during WW2 was wrong. Russians citizens abroad are free to return home; they’re not refugees.

Matt: this isn’t about cancelling individual composers. No one in singling out Tchaik, the 5, Strav, Prok or Shosta. It is a rejection of Russian culture for as long as Ru continues its war against Ukr. If Ru succeeds and Ukrainians are killed, sent to the Gulag, or escape as refugees, then a ban as in Israel/Wagner might have to be considered. Yes, purely symbolic, but as musicians what else can we do? Mind you, a ban on Wagner does’t appear to have moderated Israel’s current actions against, for example, West Bank Palestinians.

Max: would you continue to teach a Russian student who supported Putin and adopted Russian propaganda that the Ukr were “vermin to be exterminated”? Would you teach an anti-Semite? Your reference to Canada’s relationship with its indigenous people and cultural genocide is backwards. In this case, Russia is waging actual genocide in Ukr.

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Bach5G wrote: ↑Sun Jul 30, 2023 10:43 am Lots of interesting points.

Aidan: no one is suggesting interning American citizens of Russian origin. No one thinks interning German POWs during WW2 was wrong. Russians citizens abroad are free to return home; they’re not refugees.


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There's plenty more to that discrimination than the POWs or internment camps. Boycotting of Italian owned businessnes, slurs thrown, the list goes on. None of that affected the countries of the Axis in the slightest.

LeTromboniste wrote: ↑Sun Jul 30, 2023 4:05 am

Bach5G wrote: ↑Sat Jul 29, 2023 9:21 pm Great White North.

We’ll have to disagree about this. In my view - and I am in the minority on this - is no Russian music, no Russian tennis players. Kick the Russian players out of the NHL (OV out!). No Russian culture of any sort until the atrocities and war crimes cease.

OK. So I am supposed to refuse teaching my Russian students just because they happen to have been born in a country with a madman leader? What about an Iranian student, should I refuse too? Where do I draw the line? I guess Americans are okay now that Iraq and Afghanistan are over, but a few years ago I should have stood on principle and refused to teach them too? Should we not, as Canadians, be barred from everywhere including our home country until we repair the results of the cultural genocide we perpetrated against the Indigenous peoples of Canada (acts of which were still happening in my lifetime — and I'm not old!)?

I have a couple of Russian friends who got harassed in Germany after they were heard speaking Russian to each other, and followed around and threatened and told to go back to Russia, that Russians are not welcome in Germany because of the invasion. Was that right? What about the fact that it happened when they were in the middle of collecting and delivering donations for Ukrainian refugees?

I'm sorry, but this kind of all-or-nothing approach, this conception of solidarity that requires viewing an entire population as the enemy irrespective of the individuals' actions or beliefs, is a large part of why we have wars in the first place. It's dehumanizing, and it allows reasonable and kind people to hate other people they otherwise wouldn't be capable of hating.

Well said! I agree!

I felt ok about the 1812 thing because it’s a piece about Russian military victory, and replacing that iconically Russian melody with the Great Gate a Kiev felt very apropos. I think the only Russian music/musicians that maybe don’t need our support right now are those with close ties to Putin. I think, given the things that happen in America and who we recently elected, it would be hugely hypocritical to cancel an entire nations historical art output. It feels like throwing stones in a glass house.

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I was struck by a passage in Norman Davies’, Europe, a History, (1996) last night.

‘Russia’s remorseless expansion continued. A country that already possessed more land than it could usefully exploit kept on indulging its gargantuan appetite. In the west, Russia ate up the larger part of Sweden –Russia’s remorseless expansion continued. A country that already possessed more land than it could use for the exploit kept on indulging it’s gargantuan appetite. In the west, Russia ate up the larger part of Sweden –Finland and
poland – Lithuania. In the south, starting with Aziv, it swallowed up the whole of the Ottomans Black Sea provinces and Crimea, before moving against Persia, the Caucasus, and central Asia. In the east, having crossed Siberia to the Pacific, from the 1740s explored the shores of Alaska where a permanent settlement was built in Kodiak island in 1784.

Russian historians rationalize their country’s expansion in terms of ‘national tasks’ and ‘the gathering of the lands’. In reality, Russia and the rulers were addicted to territorial conquest. Their land-hunger was a symptom of a pathological condition, born of gross inefficiency and traditional militarism.’ p654-655.’

Has Russian acted any differently in the 20th and 21st centuries? The Soviet Union occupied eastern and central Europe including half of Germany and the Baltics. It ruled in Central Asia and sought to rule in Afghanistan. More recently it attacked South Ossetia and Georgia. The current war is more a case of Putin wanting to make Russia great again - Russian imperialism and colonization - as it is about NATO expansion.

Throws a different light on, say, Borodin’s Steppes of Central Asia?

Burgerbob wrote: ↑Sun Jul 30, 2023 10:49 am

Bach5G wrote: ↑Sun Jul 30, 2023 10:43 am Lots of interesting points.

Aidan: no one is suggesting interning American citizens of Russian origin. No one thinks interning German POWs during WW2 was wrong. Russians citizens abroad are free to return home; they’re not refugees.


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There's plenty more to that discrimination than the POWs or internment camps. Boycotting of Italian owned businessnes, slurs thrown, the list goes on. None of that affected the countries of the Axis in the slightest.

Who’s advocating for harassment of American citizens? Russian tourists though? Why should they stroll through Belgravia or along the Champs d’Elysee while Ukr hide in bomb shelters or die in Ru torture chambers?