TromboneChat

Greetings all.
I am doing research on the topic... What horn should I buy?
For context, I am a high school senior looking to audition for college music programs. I wish not to be pretentious, but I am serious about my practice and have gone to state honor band conferences 5 consecutive years. Up to this point I've used a 20 year old Blessing B-88-O that I got in the 6th grade, and a grandparent has graciously offered to provide a nicer, professional horn as a graduation/senior gift (I am incredibly gracious).

The Blessing works well... But it was pretty beat up before I got it, and playing on a higher end horn could possibly ink out just the advantage I need to make certain college auditions. It has a rose brass bell and open wrap rotary configuration valve, which I would like to retain in the horn I move on to.

I wish not to fall into the pitfall of dropping way too much money on a fully custom horn that I will ultimately end up replacing in 2-4 years; I realize my playing will shift greatly during college as I get input from various professors, so an upper-end Shires/Edwards/Rath/etc. full-custom would be unwise. The advice I have found up to this point (besides banking the money and waiting a year or two into college) advises a semi-professional horn or used professional "fixed" horn. My favorite contenders at the moment are:
- Getzen 1047FR Eterna
- Shires Q30GR Q-Series
and of course,
- Bach 42 and Conn 88H

I realize the wisest way to approach this is to be patient and wait a year or two into college to consider an upgrade. But I think it's time to move on from the intermediate model Blessing, along with my lessons teacher and area orchestral conductor. If a new horn is on the horizon, I would like to invest in something quality that will last me through college and well into my professional career. Of course the Bach and Conn are well respected. I've always thought the feel of Shires and Edwards horns are superior to the others, however (in my limited experience). My colleagues highly recommend Getzens as a higher quality alternative to the Shires Q-Series and as a lower price point to the Edwards custom makes.

So what do the trombone gurus think? Do Shires horns truly have all the chronic issues I keep seeing about? Are the Getzen/Edwards horns noticeably higher quality? Granted the majority of these horns are around the 2,500-4,000$ price point. I realize the Bachs and Conns are tried and true, but given the option to show up to auditions with a horn I a) prefer the response and feel of and b) is not being used by 50% of other auditioners, or show up with a Bach/Conn, I think I have to go with the Getzen/Shires. Fair assessment or college kid ludicrousness?

I know this is a bit of lengthy post. Many thanks for any advice in advance.

There is lot you have to think about when getting a new horn. And all of them come into play at some point in your ownership.

- What are you looking for in a new horn?
- What about your current setup do you not like?
- Are you able to go try horns in person or are you “buying blind”?
- When are you auditions and will you have enough time to adjust to the new horn?

I would answers those questions first and then maybe we can get a better sense of what your goals are. As for right now i can give you some general advice. If you have a store near by that has a nice selection that would be the best case scenario. I would go once just to noodle around on a few horns. If there is something you like get someone that you trust there musical opinion to go with you to listen. A private lesson teacher would be ideal for this as they know what your strengths and weaknesses are. Don’t forget to bring your current instrument with you to play them side by side (very important).

One thing you need to take into account (although maybe not as Important in this case) is new equipment can retain its value but often they are like new cars and will lose value when they leave the store. However you do get the perks of warranty and such.

Hopefully this give you a place to start.

What kind of condition is the Blessing B-88-O in? They were fairly well made "clones" of a Conn 88H, and the ones I have tried played quite nicely. Having a horn you are very familiar with and get a good sound on is more important than having a "big name" horn when doing auditions for college programs. Then you can later work with the professor at that college when looking for a new horn.

There really is a lot out there, both used and new.

Just get the Alessi Q series or Edward's artist. There's also a used Edward's Alessi on brass ark that is a great deal. You can't go wrong (if buying blind). These horns will fit pretty much anywhere. Plus your grandfolks want to buy it so you should just do it.

My money would be on the Brass Ark Alessi. The 88H these days is kind of on one extreme end of the sound and playability spectrum. I played one for years and years. As soon as I moved away from that style of horn, I was instantly fitting better into a section. And that's before you even consider that they aren't making many or possibly any good 88Hs any more. The Alessi concept is much more right down the middle. The other extreme I guess would be the old style Edward's with the heavy construction. On the Edward's AR and Alessi you can use the harmonic bridge to push it in ether direction if you want. You can especially use it to adjust the horn for playing in a crappy practice or lesson room vs playing in a hall, which is something I wish I had in college. So versatile.

Tatertotplaystrombone wrote: ↑Thu Jul 20, 2023 9:02 am There is lot you have to think about when getting a new horn. And all of them come into play at some point in your ownership.

- What are you looking for in a new horn?
- What about your current setup do you not like?
- Are you able to go try horns in person or are you “buying blind”?
- When are you auditions and will you have enough time to adjust to the new horn?

I would answers those questions first and then maybe we can get a better sense of what your goals are. As for right now i can give you some general advice. If you have a store near by that has a nice selection that would be the best case scenario. I would go once just to noodle around on a few horns. If there is something you like get someone that you trust there musical opinion to go with you to listen. A private lesson teacher would be ideal for this as they know what your strengths and weaknesses are. Don’t forget to bring your current instrument with you to play them side by side (very important).

One thing you need to take into account (although maybe not as Important in this case) is new equipment can retain its value but often they are like new cars and will lose value when they leave the store. However you do get the perks of warranty and such.

Hopefully this give you a place to start.

All good points. I have access to a few stores, but not any of the horns I'd like to try (specifically the Shires and Getzens). But with a little more poking around maybe I can find somewhere to take a trip and noodle around on some horns.

The Blessing I play has the open wrap and copper brass bell, .547 large bore. That's about the limit of spec knowledge... So playing on some horns and being cognizant of their different bore options and feels would be especially helpful. Generally, I find the Blessing somewhat resistant or "stuffy". Kind of like taking a dog out to the bathroom in the rain. I've tried to combat this with different mouthpiece setups; larger cups and more free-blowing throats help lessen this, but compared to Shires/Edwards horns I've played, there's a significant difference. Would a different bore spec help this? Dual bore setup? Even if I can't try a specific model of trombone, I can look for trombones in shops with different aspects of the horns I am interested in.

The Blessing does, however, have an open wrap and rotary valve configuration on the attachment. I like that as opposed to the closed wrap and Thayer valves. It also has a gold/rose brass bell, which helps round out some of the natural brightness in my tone (years of marching tuba have granted me some extra lip strength).

As far audition times I'm not worried. I have an early one before the end of the year, which I will probably use the Blessing for (depending on when a new horn can realistically come in). If the next horn were to come in early enough I could make the adjustment decently quickly. And if it's not feasible no worries; I'll play the Blessing for the other auditions. If a new, more free-blowing horn could ink out any extra advantage at college auditions I'll take it. But the horn is really meant to be somewhat of an heirloom; I'll remember my grandparents by, pass it on to my grandkids, etc. etc... So the horn is going to be taken care of and kept, regardless of whether I play on it extensively for the next 20 years or I decide to expand my collection coming out of college.

I appreciate the advice. I see the gurus here speak wisely

tbonesullivan wrote: ↑Thu Jul 20, 2023 9:28 am What kind of condition is the Blessing B-88-O in? They were fairly well made "clones" of a Conn 88H, and the ones I have tried played quite nicely. Having a horn you are very familiar with and get a good sound on is more important than having a "big name" horn when doing auditions for college programs. Then you can later work with the professor at that college when looking for a new horn.

There really is a lot out there, both used and new.

It's working. I've had to take it in for some slide reworking and the lacquer isn't what it used to be in its prime... But it plays well. It's just seen better days, and it's been that way since I got it back in middle school. I mentioned this above too, but if I end up doing my auditions on the Blessing all will be well. I just happen to be very fortunate in my circumstance, and if I end up with a new horn I want to make sure it's not a ridiculous, full-on custom when I don't know what my playing is going to need and how it's going to change over the next 4 years.

Right! It seems you can get a new Shires Q-series at the same price point as a used Bach 42. Just a wild testament to the longevity of the horns I suppose. And as you get into the upper end of things, all of the horns are upwards of 5 grand. So it's a money sink any way you look at it. I'm hoping for an opportunity to properly test some horns, there's not a ton of shops in the area with a great trombone selection.

harrisonreed wrote: ↑Thu Jul 20, 2023 9:29 am Just get the Alessi Q series or Edward's artist. There's also a used Edward's Alessi on brass ark that is a great deal. You can't go wrong (if buying blind). These horns will fit pretty much anywhere. Plus your grandfolks want to buy it so you should just do it.

My money would be on the Brass Ark Alessi. The 88H these days is kind of on one extreme end of the sound and playability spectrum. I played one for years and years. As soon as I moved away from that style of horn, I was instantly fitting better into a section. And that's before you even consider that they aren't making many or possibly any good 88Hs any more. The Alessi concept is much more right down the middle. The other extreme I guess would be the old style Edward's with the heavy construction. On the Edward's AR and Alessi you can use the harmonic bridge to push it in ether direction if you want. You can especially use it to adjust the horn for playing in a crappy practice or lesson room vs playing in a hall, which is something I wish I had in college. So versatile.

Is there a huge difference between the Alessi Q-Series and the Q30GR Q-Series? From what I'm seeing they're spec-wise similar, but the Q30GR has a gold brass bell. Just a tiny inkling I'm looking for in a new horn.

I have no issue with Bachs and Conns; everybody I know that plays the horns are satisfied. But I see what you're saying. The quality ones, you pretty much have to buy used. And for a nice, pre-owned Bach 42? You're dropping very similar money as you would on a new Shires or a Getzen.

The Edwards Alessi? I think I read something about Alessi having a cooperation with Edwards before he switched to Shires. I'm guessing it has some parallel to the T396-AR?

I can't speak for the Q30GR. The Alessi models are all pretty similar. The Alessi bell, Edwards or Shires, is pretty special.

Of course a horn is the sum of its parts, sometimes more than the sum of its parts depending on who built it, but if you "have an inkling" that you want a gold brass bell that's a pretty big factor in the end sound and response. Hopefully it's for a reason other than thinking you want a gold brass bell.

The Edwards 396AR is very similar to the Alessi 396, but you get the option to swap leadpipes on the AR. Those two horns are very malleable. You can do A LOT of different kinds of playing in a lot of different kinds of rooms on those designs.

harrisonreed wrote: ↑Thu Jul 20, 2023 5:42 pm I can't speak for the Q30GR. The Alessi models are all pretty similar. The Alessi bell, Edwards or Shires, is pretty special.

Of course a horn is the sum of its parts, sometimes more than the sum of its parts depending on who built it, but if you "have an inkling" that you want a gold brass bell that's a pretty big factor in the end sound and response. Hopefully it's for a reason other than thinking you want a gold brass bell.

The Edwards 396AR is very similar to the Alessi 396, but you get the option to swap leadpipes on the AR. Those two horns are very malleable. You can do A LOT of different kinds of playing in a lot of different kinds of rooms on those designs.

Noted on the Alessi bell. Hopefully there's one at a shop in the vicinity soon. I'll keep an eye out.

Leadpipe swapping. Interesting. I have seen a lot about the Edwards horns you are talking about being versatile. It's worth trying as well... I appreciate the insight.

Don`t rule out a Good used Bach 42B or BO or an 88H
Getting good used horn like those , the price really never goes down and resale is always good.
Get yourself into college and study and practice with your College teacher. Then look for THE Horn
And they can help you look for exactly what you need ..

You have`nt started your College journey yet and you never know what direction you may end up going in

I teach a lot of students in your age range, many of whom are all-state, youth orchestra, and college music major kids. I've found that you get the most bang for your buck if you get a used Getzen 3047AF. I just had a student get one for $2000. They're high quality builds, they're middle of the road for the most part (rather than getting someone's used custom Edwards/Shires set up that might have some atypical components), and they're easy to play and sound great. The mark up on brand new instruments is insane, so as appealing as the Eterna or Q series may seem, you're getting a lower quality instrument for a higher price.

If you find a Shires or Edwards used, make sure you can try it in person first to make sure the part combination isn't really off for your needs.

Bach 42, Yamaha 8820, Adams TB1s (starting to get very popular; I tested one recently - they play great!) are all solid options.



Edit** That being said, tatertot and tbonesullivan both make great points. There are many factors to consider. As long as your current horn is in good working condition, any teacher worth studying with will hear through any limitations of your equipment to assess your strengths and weaknesses were you to use it for your audition.

I like my Bach 36K. Goes well against the big boys. Change mouthpieces and it holds up against the smalls! Change again and in a pinch it will cover bass, wouldn't do it permanently tho!

I've played everything from .565+ bass troms to sub .500 tenors. If I had to only have 1 trom it would be the Bach 36.

A *good* used Bach 42 (and many people prefer closed-wrap version) is probably exactly what you need at this point in your career.

Pezza wrote: ↑Sat Jul 22, 2023 5:14 pm I like my Bach 36K. Goes well against the big boys. Change mouthpieces and it holds up against the smalls! Change again and in a pinch it will cover bass, wouldn't do it permanently tho!

I've played everything from .565+ bass troms to sub .500 tenors. If I had to only have 1 trom it would be the Bach 36.

I'm going to second the idea of a Bach 36 (36BO?) for this stage of your playing career. They are incredibly versatile horns and aren't outrageously expensive (of course, if your grandfather is willing to shell out big bucks for you, like $4,000-$6,000, I have a few other suggestions. )

BTW, Max Pirone (a well known Italian trombonist) has a great 36B for sale right here in the Classified section, and he's asking 1300 euros, which is a very good price. Here's the link: viewtopic.php?t=32191

You can play principal in your orchestra with this horn, as well as lead in your college big band, and sound great in both. The 36 is an incredible axe that doesn't get as much attention as it should, anymore.

Later, when you're more experienced and know better what you want, you do what the rest of us do, which is to spend ungodly amounts of money on multiple professional trombones. I've got over $10,000 tied up just in two tenor trombones, and that doesn't even count the bass trombone. You don't have to do that to your grandfather just yet.

I would talk to whoever your professor will be in college. Get their opinion. I assume they have heard you. Having a mentor who is able to hear you and see what would probably work for you is a big deal. You’re already used to a .547 bore instrument, so getting a Bach 36 doesn’t really make sense… although, they are great horns.

I would be patient, and go on the advice of your professor.

deanmccarty wrote: ↑Sun Jul 23, 2023 5:44 pm I would talk to whoever your professor will be in college. Get their opinion. I assume they have heard you. Having a mentor who is able to hear you and see what would probably work for you is a big deal. You’re already used to a .547 bore instrument, so getting a Bach 36 doesn’t really make sense… although, they are great horns.

I would be patient, and go on the advice of your professor.

As a college professor of trombone, this is very good advice.

deanmccarty wrote: ↑Sun Jul 23, 2023 5:44 pm QYou’re already used to a .547 bore instrument, so getting a Bach 36 doesn’t really make sense… although, they are great horns.

Unless a 36 suits you and you don't know it!
I struggled for years to play tenor on a large bore. Thought I couldn't because I was a bass bone player. Tenor playing greatly improved when I got my 36!

Forgot I made this thread… Marching band is upon us.
I have a lessons teacher now who’ll be able to make some suggestions, access to a couple horns before I make any decisions.

On the topic of versatile horns… I recently acquired an Olds Special from the 40’s for jazz. No worries on making a symphonic tenor fit the big band bill.

Thanks all for your advice. Quite glad this forum exists… Not a lot of professional trombonists in my circle, so it’s good to get a head start on advice before I seek out a master in person. Or at conference.

Kdanielsen wrote: ↑Sun Jul 23, 2023 6:24 pm

deanmccarty wrote: ↑Sun Jul 23, 2023 5:44 pm I would talk to whoever your professor will be in college. Get their opinion. I assume they have heard you. Having a mentor who is able to hear you and see what would probably work for you is a big deal. You’re already used to a .547 bore instrument, so getting a Bach 36 doesn’t really make sense… although, they are great horns.

I would be patient, and go on the advice of your professor.

As a college professor of trombone, this is very good advice.

As a college professor of trombone, agreed.

Play your auditions on the instrument you know. No professor worth studying with is going to make their admissions decision based on what instrument you are playing right now. They want to hear your current level of skill and musical thought, and they want to get a sense of your potential for growth.

Is the Blessing holding you back from demonstrating those? Probably not, but if you have ANY question at all about that, identify the top two or three schools you are interested in and take lessons from those teachers ahead of the auditions. In fact, do that anyway. Talk frankly with them about your instrument and the generous gift you have been offered.