TromboneChat

I‘ve finally got around to putting some practice time in on my Flügelhorn and have been enjoying it more than I expected. It‘s going well enough that I‘ll be playing a gig on 2nd Flügelhorn in a few weeks for some traditional Böhmische Polka/March stuff.

My Flügel is a Spiri from Switzerland and is pretty similar to this one:
https://www.ebay.de/itm/334932031692?m ... media=COPY
I picked it up for a couple of hundred € just to play around. I had a Flügel player try it out and he was surprised at the sweet sound and less than catastrophic intonation. It’s certainly not holding me back and I have no plans to upgrade.

I am however thinking about complementing it with a trumpet.

Are there any doublers out there who can recommend a solid trumpet option for big band, wind band and possibly symphony orchestra?

I don‘t want to go down a trumpet rabbit hole and end up with a cupboard full of trumpets, I‘m hoping to find something like an affordable jack-of-all-trades, a King 3B/F, Bach 36 or Conn 88H of the trumpet world, if you will.

I‘m concentrating on used instruments with a maximum budget of around 1200€. I would also consider a hidden gem for a new or used horn which is based on a higher range model without some of the trim.

Bach 37ml

The intermediate Yamaha trumpets are a really great bang-for-your-buck just like their trombones are. King ones as well. You can get one for under $500 pretty easily and they'll cover your bases. For orchestral stuff, you'd typically want a C trumpet, but for community stuff, nobody will really care much.

If you care to learn the "C" side of things, there is a Getzen convertible Bb/C that you can get used at your price point. In trumpet world, the instruments are backward compared to trombones. For orchestra and a lot of classical stuff, you want something a little brighter, and for commercial music, often something a bit broader/larger. This poses a challenge for such hybrid instruments because the bell has to be a compromise in both directions to work well for either side. However, I briefly owned one and it worked well, but I quickly decided I didn't care much to learn C fingerings or transpositions in addition to the Bb side. On the Bb side, I can comfortably read anything I could on trombone.

I had a Conn Vintage One that was really great. I preferred a large bore trumpet and 1 1/2C mouthpiece. The Holton Maynard Ferguson models had big bores and are touted to be some of the best trumpets.

I have a Holton ST304 Maynard Ferguson trumpet that does quite well for church playing. Pro trumpet player joins me occasionally and is a Bach only guy. He tried my horn one day and declared “These feel like Bach valves, and this would make a great lead or jazz horn!” Paid $200 for mine used, prices have drastically increased since I got mine in the 90s.

If i could piggyback on this a little, I was thinking of getting a cornet for a while and learned a few things about that world. Some trumpet players don't understand trombone players' obsession with bore. Apparently bore doesn't have the same... reputation on trumpet.

Is there a real audible difference between trumpet and cornet? When I actually have seen them side by side, I can't hear a trombone-baritone kind of distinction.

I play a Bach 43 with a largish trumpet mouthpiece (1C) when I double on trumpet. It gets the job done, but I've also found there's a lot more forgiveness from instrument to instrument than in trombone land.

B&S Challenger I trumpet or one of the stencils of it. I forget the model number. A very good Bach 37 copy.

hyperbolica wrote: ↑Sat Jul 08, 2023 4:55 pm Is there a real audible difference between trumpet and cornet? When I actually have seen them side by side, I can't hear a trombone-baritone kind of distinction.

It's nowhere near as distinct as trombone vs. baritone - not surprising, given that trumpets and cornets made by the same manufacturer typically share some components (the valve block, at the very least). Depending on the manufacturer, the only difference between a "cornet" and a "trumpet" might be the leadpipe.

I second Matt K's suggestion for a Yamaha intermediate horn, like a YTR-4335. Even the 2335 is a really nice player, kind of like how the YSL-354 is a good enough trombone to be used professionally. You could also look for a used pro Yamaha. Used YTR-6335s are pretty common and should be within your budget. The ultimate "good for absolutely EVERYTHING" trumpet is the Bach 37, but not everyone likes how those play. (I don't.) And a Yamaha trumpet ending in -335 is also versatile enough to use on anything.

There are Yamaha models that aren't good for everything, like the Schilke-style models (6310Z and older 3-digit models) which are great commercial horns but not so much orchestral. I play a YTR-737 and I love it...but I also love Schilkes, so I knew I would.

hyperbolica wrote: ↑Sat Jul 08, 2023 4:55 pmIs there a real audible difference between trumpet and cornet? When I actually have seen them side by side, I can't hear a trombone-baritone kind of distinction.

The modern Bb trumpet IS a cornet. The biggest difference is the mouthpiece and approach. Play a cornet with the same Bach 3C as you play in your trumpet and it'll sound essentially the same, but proper British-style cornet playing is done on deep V-shaped Denis Wick mouthpieces and very dark-sounding cornets.

If you want to hear the difference between a true trumpet and a cornet, look for recordings of low F or Eb orchestral rotary trumpets, which are basically baroque trumpets with valves. Nobody would mistake that for a cornet!

Thanks to all

Didn’t realise we have so many trumpeters on the forum!

The B&S and Yamaha options are easy to find around here within my budget so I’ll probably start there, I do have a soft spot for Holton trombones so will keep an eye out for a MF horn also.

I saw someone mentioned King as well, any thoughts on the 2007 model?

greenbean wrote: ↑Sat Jul 08, 2023 6:36 pm B&S Challenger I trumpet or one of the stencils of it. I forget the model number. A very good Bach 37 copy.

It’s the Challenger II, German made based on the Bach, used by Malcolm McNab and Phil Cobb

When I was able to, I always preferred to double on the flugelhorn, rather than the trumpet or cornet.

Listen to the top British brass band cornet players and compare them to the top orchestral trumpet players. There is a huge difference in sound.

Even in my local lower grade community band it's obvious who is on a trumpet & who is on a cornet.

When I play baritone I sound more trombony compared to other players, but still sound like a bari compared to the troms!l

Pezza wrote: ↑Sun Jul 09, 2023 3:23 am When I was able to, I always preferred to double on the flugelhorn, rather than the trumpet or cornet.

Listen to the top British brass band cornet players and compare them to the top orchestral trumpet players. There is a huge difference in sound.

Even in my local lower grade community band it's obvious who is on a trumpet & who is on a cornet.

When I play baritone I sound more trombony compared to other players, but still sound like a bari compared to the troms!l

As I remember in the UK the Flügelhorn seat in a brass band is very sought after and as a doubler you’d be lucky to jump the queue in front of all the cornets!

There are plenty of playing opportunities on Flügelhorn here, a lot of community wind bands have 2-3 Flügel and 2-3 trumpets. I’ll soon be filling in on 2nd Flügel in our 7-piece group (2 Flüg, 1 Trum, Tenorhorn, Bariton, Tuba and Drums). Since we have 3 people who can cover TH/Bari and 3 who cover FH/Trum it’d be quite handy that in case one of the upper voices can’t make it, I can swap onto FH or trumpet. I fancy the challenge and am getting up to speed on FH pretty well.

Plenty of opportunities to play trumpet also.

In the meantime I pulled the trigger on a King 2007. I checked it out with a trumpet player and he reckons it’s a relatively lightweight horn with L/XL bore. Apparently the 2000 series were marketed as pro horns in the late 70s, maybe early 80s, and although not that common due to a shortish production run are moderately well regarded, at least by the small sample size of one person who I spoke to.

Otherwise I couldn’t find much about it online. Could it be that trumpet players are not quite so obsessed with gear (other than mouthpieces) as trombonists?

MrHCinDE wrote: ↑Sun Jul 09, 2023 4:12 am Otherwise I couldn’t find much about it online. Could it be that trumpet players are not quite so obsessed with gear (other than mouthpieces) as trombonists?

As far as I can tell, trumpeters are much more obsessed with mouthpieces than trombonists, but trombonists generally focus their gear nerdery on the instruments more than trumpeters do.

Finetales wrote: ↑Sun Jul 09, 2023 9:06 am

MrHCinDE wrote: ↑Sun Jul 09, 2023 4:12 am Otherwise I couldn’t find much about it online. Could it be that trumpet players are not quite so obsessed with gear (other than mouthpieces) as trombonists?

As far as I can tell, trumpeters are much more obsessed with mouthpieces than trombonists, but trombonists generally focus their gear nerdery on the instruments more than trumpeters do.

I'm shocked that trumpet players only have pistons and rotaries, given how many options we have for something that is used with way less frequency than trumpet players, who actuate valves for basically every note.

Matt K wrote: ↑Sun Jul 09, 2023 9:32 amI'm shocked that trumpet players only have pistons and rotaries, given how many options we have for something that is used with way less frequency than trumpet players, who actuate valves for basically every note.

That's just it - valves are a fundamental part of their instrument. Almost all trombone players start out on a straight tenor, so we view valves as a necessary evil (thus the common dismissal of valve trombones) and seek to have it both ways - a trombone with the utility of valves that plays like a straight tenor.

Matt K wrote: ↑Sun Jul 09, 2023 9:32 am
I'm shocked that trumpet players only have pistons and rotaries, given how many options we have for something that is used with way less frequency than trumpet players, who actuate valves for basically every note.

Trumpets had a variety of valves in the Bad Old Days. The Cornupean had Stolzel valves. Some had Vienna Valves. Neither of them are more open than a good piston valve. Before there were valves, there were holes and keys.

Originally the Axial (Thayer) was shown for French Horn. Don't think you can fit a set of them on a trumpet body easily.

Quite frankly, a good sized rotor or piston valve avoids all the rigmarole that caused us trombone players to start looking at other valve designs.

The difference, as JohnL alluded to, is that players of trumpets and other valve instruments expect and work with the resistance rotors or pistons provide. Trombonists are the only ones who often (but not always, hence why we still have rotors) want the most open instrument possible. I've never once played a trumpet and thought "this instrument would be a lot better if it had wide-open valves."

Tuba would take a whole lot more air if it used axials, and it already takes more than enough. I could see one used as the change valve on a double horn, or maybe the longest/lowest valve on a big tuba. But that's about it.

I’m not so sure that trumpeters don’t see the need per se. Even Monette makes a bugle, after all.

The trumpet bore range compared to human lung capacity is fully in the range where the instrument runs out of air before your lungs run out of oxygen. Where on trombone, the range of bores bridges that line, where with the small bores your lungs are the limiting factore, but with larger bores you run out of oxygen before your horn does, if that makes sense. I think that's why bore size matters so much more to trombone players than trumpet players, it imposes a limit on us that trumpet players don't have to deal with.

In the trumpet vs cornet sound, my grandson is playing my son’s older Conn cornet. Definite difference in sound between it and my Holton trumpet. I used the cornet for an outdoor set several years ago, as I wanted to mellow it out some but not enough to use the French horn, and no mic so I needed to project well. Been a few times I’ve used cornet in church for the different sound. When grandson and I play together trumpet on 1st parts and cornet on second parts in our ensembles have worked well.

Trumpet bore sizes are also often deceiving. There are .438" trumpets that feel wide open and .484" cornets that feel tight. All else being equal, a larger bore trumpet will be freer blowing, but the leadpipe and shape of the main tuning slide are much more important to how a trumpet feels to the player. As a bass trombonist I personally love how an XL-bore .470" trumpet feels, but the trumpet I own and gig on is .460" (ML bore in trumpet speak), about as bog standard middle-of-the-road as it gets.

Another crucial difference is that the bore of a trumpet really doesn't make a noticeable difference to the sound. You wouldn't use a .485" bore trombone in the orchestra or a .547" trombone on lead in a big band (yes I know there are exceptions, there are exceptions to everything). But as long as you don't stray too far outside the standard range, any bore size trumpet you come across just sounds like...a trumpet.

Matt K wrote: ↑Sun Jul 09, 2023 3:10 pm I’m not so sure that trumpeters don’t see the need per se. Even Monette makes a bugle, after all.

Trumpet players don't see a bugle as the "default" configuration of their instrument - it's more of a special tool for ceremonial use.

You got a good buy on the spiri flugelhorn!

I agree with what everyone else has said. If you have the $$$, a Bach 37 (or Yamaha Xeno) is probably the way to go.

Student line Bach, Yamaha, Getzen, etc., are good bets if you want to buy on the cheap (whatever is available).

comebackplayer wrote: ↑Sun Jul 09, 2023 7:50 pm You got a good buy on the spiri flugelhorn!

I agree with what everyone else has said. If you have the $$$, a Bach 37 (or Yamaha Xeno) is probably the way to go.

Student line Bach, Yamaha, Getzen, etc., are good bets if you want to buy on the cheap (whatever is available).

The Flügelhorn did sound pretty awesome when my Flügel playing friend tested it for me, sounded like more than 200€ of instrument in his hands, he is a fine player though. Nice to have a bit of blind luck occasionally, I’ve bought enough rubbish over the years.

On the trumpet, I went for a King 2007 for about half of my budget. That was in the same range as a new entry level Yamaha and both were under consideration but in the end, as with trombones, I couldn’t resist the vintage one.

I have never in my life seriously tried to play trumpet.
But from what I see in Germany, B&S trumpets seem to be relatively popular.
Challenger 1 and 2 seem to be good and reliable instruments.

If you wanted to buy new, I would certainly look into the new B&S signature models.
I have seen some very good reviews.

In case anyone has a passing interest, my King 2007 trumpet turned up.

Seems like a really nice horn and I managed to get a half decent noise out of it. It’s a lot easier to play than the Flügel, especially in terms of intonation. I might be imagining it but as a regular 3B player it feels kinda familiar.