TromboneChat

I went to go to the Hornguys.com and something completely different pops up
Horn Werks???
Did they close shop?

Reading through the FAQ on that website, it appears they are “on a break” (scroll to the bottom of that page if you don’t want to read it all).

I do hope that they return. I bought three horns from them over the years and it's such a great source of quality low brass in Southern California.

I think it may be back with new owners sooner rather than later.

I guess the question is what happened to Steve Ferguson?

He had had it with Conn Selmer shipping him stuff that was crap compared to the Eastlake years, and needed a break. Their business somewhat relied on taking in the good stuff Eastlake was making, going over it in the shop for fine details and then out to the customer. That changed once the "fine details" basically were complete overhauls.

From their "about us" page

What's happening
This is a relaunch of the Horn Guys business as a retirement project, but only the cool stuff.

FWIW, it looks like Steve is still involved.

Consultants
To keep us inspired and thoughtful
R Tucci, S Maier, A Keller, D Tornquist,
L Stuntz, TL Lillo, D Brinton, J Noreyko,
M Anderson, R Sanders, RD Olson, P Klintworth,
J Gralle, R Stewart, J Mason, N Gladstone,
B Close, J Sandhagen, T Clements, S Ferguson

--Andy in OKC

harrisonreed wrote: ↑Wed Jul 19, 2023 5:10 am He had had it with Conn Selmer shipping him stuff that was crap compared to the Eastlake years, and needed a break. Their business somewhat relied on taking in the good stuff Eastlake was making, going over it in the shop for fine details and then out to the customer. That changed once the "fine details" basically were complete overhauls.

More than once over the years he's posted (and usually subsequently removed) a rant to that effect on the shop page. Must've gotten to be too much frustration to continue that business model.

Hopefully it'll be back in some form or another. The mouthpieces they were making in collaboration with James New were great, and I'd hate to not be able to get another Ferguson L if for some reason I lose mine.

FWIW James New is around and busy. I'm sure you could get a "Fauxgerson" mouthpiece that is exactly like the one you already have from him if the horn guys ones dry up. Just like the Griego artist Fauxlessi stuff is exactly the same.

harrisonreed wrote: ↑Wed Jul 19, 2023 5:10 am He had had it with Conn Selmer shipping him stuff that was crap compared to the Eastlake years, and needed a break. Their business somewhat relied on taking in the good stuff Eastlake was making, going over it in the shop for fine details and then out to the customer. That changed once the "fine details" basically were complete overhauls.

I remember when he went through that same sort of thing with Getzen.

Is Conn Selmer shipping anything these days?

Looks like it:



That is very recent

I understand their frustration with Conn/Selmer. I've played a couple of brand new Bachs and Conns, and for the Conns at least - the slides out of the box were unplayable. A friend got a new King 3B and the slide was in a similar condition, and when he took it to a tech, they found a huge blob of solder in the end crook. The two new Bach 42s I've tried recently seemed to be decent, even if they were definitely not 10/10. Contrast this with what Getzen is doing. I briefly owned a 1047 and now have a 1052FDR, and both of them have arguably the best slides I've ever tried - they are clearly doing something right at present in Elkhorn.

Yeah, I hear that. I did get a really good deal on two demo Bachs, but I'm fairly certain that the 36 slide is going to need a rebuild so that everything lines up correctly. And lets not forget that one of the reasons that the 42BO I got was a demo is that the outer tuning slides for the F attachment had little to no solder holding them on. It sounds and plays great now, but honestly Conn Selmer needs to seriously up their game. Probably have a board full of financial people who don't understand "operations".

One dealer told me that the Conn/Selmer plant in Elkhart lost nearly all of their unionized workers to Winnebago, who also operates out of Elkhart. They are now reportedly paying their existing workforce a fraction of what they were previously, and if there ever was a case of "you get what you pay for," this is it.

Boneuphtoner wrote: ↑Wed Jul 19, 2023 2:01 pm One dealer told me that the Conn/Selmer plant in Elkhart lost nearly all of their unionized workers to Winnebago, who also operates out of Elkhart. They are now reportedly paying their existing workforce a fraction of what they were previously, and if there ever was a case of "you get what you pay for," this is it.

yeah, an this was AFTER deciding to move production of King and Conn trombones from Eastlake to Elkhart, but pretty much not moving most of the staff.

Could Eastman be looking at parts of CS?

Boneuphtoner wrote: ↑Wed Jul 19, 2023 2:01 pm One dealer told me that the Conn/Selmer plant in Elkhart lost nearly all of their unionized workers to Winnebago, who also operates out of Elkhart. They are now reportedly paying their existing workforce a fraction of what they were previously, and if there ever was a case of "you get what you pay for," this is it.

If this is true, this should be a huge news story and talked about wildly. Shame on C-S.

Bach5G wrote: ↑Wed Jul 19, 2023 6:08 pm Could Eastman be looking at parts of CS?

I suppose they could, but the questions are (1) what is the business case to acquire Conn-Selmer, and (2) is Conn-Selmer interested in selling off pieces of their business?

The only business case I can think of for acquiring Conn-Selmer would be to get US distribution rights to Selmer saxophones and (maybe) low clarinets. They don't need Bach or Conn or King for brasses. They own Haynes flutes, so they have the high end flute market covered. With the Haynes Q series they have the middle of the market covered too. The Eastman brand of low brasses seems to be well-respected and Willson now covers the high end of low valved brasses. They own Backun clarinets, but that doesn't appear to cover the harmony clarinets (Eb/alto/bass/contrabasses). The only parts of the high-end market they don't seem to have covered are saxophones and horns. Conn-Selmer gives them the Conn 8D, but the 1960s were 60 years ago. That isn't the high-end horn market any more.

Boneuphtoner wrote: ↑Wed Jul 19, 2023 2:01 pm One dealer told me that the Conn/Selmer plant in Elkhart lost nearly all of their unionized workers to Winnebago, who also operates out of Elkhart. They are now reportedly paying their existing workforce a fraction of what they were previously, and if there ever was a case of "you get what you pay for," this is it.

Nothing at Conn-Selmer's Elkhart plant has been assembled by a union worker since the 2006 strike, from what I understood.

I'd bet moving production of King and Conn from (unionized) Eastlake to (non-union) Elkhart did not involve a lot of retraining of staff or care in maintaining the quality of those brands.

I ask about Eastman because it seems to be the only company that can make money in the musical instrument business.

Bach5G wrote: ↑Wed Jul 19, 2023 11:41 pm I ask about Eastman because it seems to be the only company that can make money in the musical instrument business.

Well, when you outsource your parts to a labor force that you barely need to pay...

All the manufacturers are making money now… most are doing so by lowering quality and upping prices.
Some are making such great products that they can charge whatever they want and still have a year wait time.
The people “suffering” are the players and the retailers.

yeah, an this was AFTER deciding to move production of King and Conn trombones from Eastlake to Elkhart, but pretty much not moving most of the staff.

Oh, that's a problem. The Eastlake stuff always had the edge of being properly assembled. I guess that's changed now. FWIW, the best Bach I ever saw was shipped out from Eastlake--box was labelled Model 142. Maybe just an experiment, and cost too much to be built the right way....

My Eastlake 88H (RIP) and 36H were/are some of the best made horns I ever had. My 88H is in a new home now though.

SquareTube wrote: ↑Thu Jul 20, 2023 9:44 amOh, that's a problem. The Eastlake stuff always had the edge of being properly assembled. I guess that's changed now. FWIW, the best Bach I ever saw was shipped out from Eastlake--box was labelled Model 142. Maybe just an experiment, and cost too much to be built the right way....

I think they still make Tubas in the Eastlake factory? I mean, I get that having all trombone manufacturing in one place does make sense, but to not bring along the staff that had been making very consistent horns for decades in the same location and losing that shared knowledge? Utterly stupid.

I still remember one of my friends from HS who took some trumpet lessons with the professor at his college as a non music major. My friend had the stereotypical silver plated Bach trumpet, and the professor said that he usually recommended Benge trumpets, and all the majors had them. They were "much more consistent" in his words, and at that time (1997-1999) it was before the UMI and Steinway / Selmer acquisition / merger. The only people who really gained things from that merger were the corporate types and owners. With boards full of people who only understand money and not "operations", I doubt anything will change anytime soon. It really sucks to see so many companies that were at one time innovative getting sucked into one giant company that will probably end up running things into the ground.

Cotboneman wrote: ↑Tue Jul 18, 2023 7:04 pm I do hope that they return. I bought three horns from them over the years and it's such a great source of quality low brass in Southern California.

Yes IF they have high quality low brass to actually sell-hence the issue.

After reading all these responses, it's no wonder people buy Elkhart Conns, Mt Vernon Bachs, and other "vintage" horns. I have a 57 6H, which is awesome and will never leave my hands. I also recently acquired a 1989 Yamaha YSL-684G (525 bore) that plays better than a buddy's 525 Shires, according to him. I will never buy another new horn. I have found that older = less expensive = better, or "More bang for the buck".

Driswood wrote: ↑Tue Aug 01, 2023 10:02 am After reading all these responses, it's no wonder people buy Elkhart Conns, Mt Vernon Bachs, and other "vintage" horns. I have a 57 6H, which is awesome and will never leave my hands. I also recently acquired a 1989 Yamaha YSL-684G (525 bore) that plays better than a buddy's 525 Shires, according to him. I will never buy another new horn. I have found that older = less expensive = better, or "More bang for the buck".

There are plenty of fabulous new trombones. This is mainly just a Conn-Selmer issue.

Medium bore Yamahas are pretty unique too fwiw. The pro models are mostly (all?) 8.5" bells, in one-piece construction and an unsoldered bell bead. I don't know anyone else who makes that.

Driswood wrote: ↑Tue Aug 01, 2023 10:02 am After reading all these responses, it's no wonder people buy Elkhart Conns, Mt Vernon Bachs, and other "vintage" horns. I have a 57 6H, which is awesome and will never leave my hands. I also recently acquired a 1989 Yamaha YSL-684G (525 bore) that plays better than a buddy's 525 Shires, according to him. I will never buy another new horn. I have found that older = less expensive = better, or "More bang for the buck".

I recently bought a Conn 78H special (.525 bore) with rotor from The Brass Ark. The serial number shows that it was built around 1940. I use it for all of my show work now, and sometimes in brass bands too. The horn plays spectacularly, it's just as good as any Shires I own. The horn is a chameleon, I can sound warm and dark when I need to, or push it to brighten it up and get some edge. The slide is close to a 10/10 and the valve plays nice and open, but focused.

Driswood wrote: ↑Tue Aug 01, 2023 10:02 am After reading all these responses, it's no wonder people buy Elkhart Conns, Mt Vernon Bachs, and other "vintage" horns. I have a 57 6H, which is awesome and will never leave my hands. I also recently acquired a 1989 Yamaha YSL-684G (525 bore) that plays better than a buddy's 525 Shires, according to him. I will never buy another new horn. I have found that older = less expensive = better, or "More bang for the buck".

I dunno, I just bought a brand new Bach LT16MG that is an absolutely fabulous instrument. I think there's a natural tendency to believe "they don't make 'em like they used to" about just about anything from refrigerators to trombones. What people don't realize is that the old ones still around are the best ones, but for each surviving one there are a hundred crap examples that were junked long ago.

Even though I was nervous about buying a brand new horn because I bought into the "new Bachs are crap" narrative, I'm generally skeptical that older is necessarily better.