TromboneChat

Found this little gem:



The dude knows his legato.

Seems most all tongued save for a few glisses?

Alan's trombone knowledge is truly prodigious.

That is one of so many great recordings he has done and is still doing today. And imagine all the records he did that nobody is really aware of.
And hard to believe when hearing his jazz and ballad tenor playing - he is a really great bass trombonist.

On this recording I love his warm sound and lovely legato playing combined with his really nice and controlled vibrato.

baileyman wrote: ↑Sat Jun 24, 2023 12:38 pm Seems most all tongued save for a few glisses?

To my ears, he made a lot of specific choices about alternate positions which impacted whether he could do lip slurs vs. portamentos vs. tongued articulations.

Yeah, that was nice. But Alan isn't my favorite ballad player TBH. His feel is a little, I dunno, "wooden" (for lack of a better word) for my taste. Even his vibrato is a little too intense IMHO. He's trying to play vibrato like Dick Nash, but he has a different feel. Nash, Urbie Green, Bill Watrous and several others have a much gentler, more organic and vocal-like approach to ballads, which personally I like better. My personal opinion. Alan can be impressive when intensity and precision are called for, can rip off passages like a machine gun, and he's tops at being a reliable player who will play it right the first time and play it exactly the same every time in a very clear way. But, for me, ballads aren't where I find his biggest strengths, at least to my ear. Not to say Alan isn't a fine player. He's a pro. This is just my take. Your mileage may vary.

tbdana wrote: ↑Sat Jun 24, 2023 7:45 pm Yeah, that was nice. But Alan isn't my favorite ballad player. His feel is a little wooden for my taste. Even his vibrato is a little too intense IMHO. He's trying to play vibrato like Dick Nash, but he doesn't have Dick's liquid feel, really. Nash, Urbie Green, Bill Watrous and several others have a much gentler, more organic, and vocal-like approach to ballads, which I think suits the trombone better than Alan's approach. Alan can play like a machine gun and be impressive when intensity and precision are called for, and he's tops at being a reliable player who will play it right the first time and play it exactly the same every time in a very clear way, but ballads aren't really his strongest suit, at least to my ear. Not to say Alan isn't a fine player. He's a pro. This is just my take. Your mileage may vary.

I think I understand the difference that you are mentioning, even though Dick Nash, Urbie Green and Bill Watrous are again all quite different to my ears. I really love Alan's playing BECAUSE it makes so much sense and is so smooth and warm, being maybe a bit more "structured" than others. However what most impresses me with Alan: While he may not be THE most well-known ballad player, not THE most well-known jazz improviser etc, he just does so many different things on an incredibly high level. Plus he is a really nice and helpful person. Real role model in my opinion.

That's beautiful. A keeper, as they'd say.

MStarke wrote: ↑Mon Jun 26, 2023 1:43 am

tbdana wrote: ↑Sat Jun 24, 2023 7:45 pm Yeah, that was nice. But [...]

I think I understand the difference that you are mentioning, even though Dick Nash, Urbie Green and Bill Watrous are again all quite different to my ears. I really love Alan's playing BECAUSE it makes so much sense and is so smooth and warm, being maybe a bit more "structured" than others.

I think quite a lot of tbdana's take could be rather more generously worded, or left unsaid, but there is undeniably a difference of approach - "structured" is a good word for it.

But I also think what AK is doing here, or on the Lonely Town album, is a subtly but categorically different thing, especially as far as UG and BW are concerned... further removed from jazz sensibilities, more strictly within the "studio legit" sound that Alan's written about in the context of the Hoyt Bohannon arrangements.

Even in the cheesier "with strings" contexts, the others have a more overtly soloistic concept, with "jazz" levels of license - the breaks/fills/final bar noodles are all as "personal" as they would be in a combo setting.

This is something else: more embedded in that studio tradition... Lloyd Ulyate, or things like this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tyuMqcgEOg8 ... more strictly "instrumental", perhaps. A different thing, one that even in its heyday was never cool, but a significant part of the cultural fabric, and it's cool to hear someone keep it alive. There's room for both.

MStarke wrote: ↑Mon Jun 26, 2023 1:43 am I really love Alan's playing BECAUSE it makes so much sense and is so smooth and warm, being maybe a bit more "structured" than others. However what most impresses me with Alan: While he may not be THE most well-known ballad player, not THE most well-known jazz improviser etc, he just does so many different things on an incredibly high level. Plus he is a really nice and helpful person. Real role model in my opinion.

I'm sorry if I'm giving the wrong impression. I have a ton of respect for Alan. He's a good player who has had a great career, and he has carved out his own unique approach that is instantly recognizable. It's just that like everyone who carves out their own space, he does some things differently and people can reasonably prefer or not prefer that particular take. Overall, it's good for music and good for the trombone. I'm just saying that my personal opinion is that ballads are better served on the trombone with a more velvety (for lack of a better word) approach. That's just my opinion about ballads, not Alan's playing. Alan is a wonderful player and a good person who has proved himself with a hugely successful career. I'm not here to take anything away from him. Just talking about my preference in approach to ballads. But hey, viva le differance!

ithinknot wrote: ↑Mon Jun 26, 2023 11:49 am I think quite a lot of tbdana's take could be rather more generously worded, or left unsaid, but there is undeniably a difference of approach - "structured" is a good word for it.

Yeah, you're probably right. I was not terribly artful, and was just thinking about ballads and not so much how it could be taken. For whatever failures my post contains, I apologize.

Hello all .

I enjoyed very much this Alan Kaplan take . I like a lot his sound , and to me the sound is the most important thing

Anyway , frankly I do not find Tbdana' words were offensive . He just wrote how he feel , I think . I saw his first post was edited ; maybe I am missing something .

I think that we can express our opinions , even if we dislike something , and if we disagree with others people . We are talking about music , musicians . Professional musicians , even genius . A musician is not a "benefactor of humanity" , or a Doctor who treats poor people for free .. A professional musician , at the end , is a person who "sell sounds" : he gets paid for what it does . AK was paid for this take above , so who boughts this record has the right to say if he like it , or not .
Of course in a polite , but also frank way .

Of course , we do not criticize a street musician who play outdoor for few money, that kind people put in his case . But we have the right to criticize a C. Lindberg record , if we do not like it at all . Even if we know that , compared to him , we are 0,0 ..

Regards
Giancarlo

tbdana wrote: ↑Mon Jun 26, 2023 12:21 pm I was not terribly artful

No worries. I definitely like well-formed critical opinions, it gives me more to think about when listening and in my own practice room.

tbdana wrote: ↑Mon Jun 26, 2023 12:19 pm

MStarke wrote: ↑Mon Jun 26, 2023 1:43 am I really love Alan's playing BECAUSE it makes so much sense and is so smooth and warm, being maybe a bit more "structured" than others. However what most impresses me with Alan: While he may not be THE most well-known ballad player, not THE most well-known jazz improviser etc, he just does so many different things on an incredibly high level. Plus he is a really nice and helpful person. Real role model in my opinion.

I'm sorry if I'm giving the wrong impression. I have a ton of respect for Alan. He's a good player who has had a great career, and he has carved out his own unique approach that is instantly recognizable. It's just that like everyone who carves out their own space, he does some things differently and people can reasonably prefer or not prefer that particular take. Overall, it's good for music and good for the trombone. I'm just saying that my personal opinion is that ballads are better served on the trombone with a more velvety (for lack of a better word) approach. That's just my opinion about ballads, not Alan's playing. Alan is a wonderful player and a good person who has proved himself with a hugely successful career. I'm not here to take anything away from him. Just talking about my preference in approach to ballads. But hey, viva le differance!

Absolutely understood, no worries! I hardly dare to say it, but I on the other hand don't like Bill Watrous style so much And that doesn't take anything from him being a great musician and trombonist. My opinion probably doesn't count much anyway here

How about IRA Nepus?

IMHO Bill Watrous has the most “Singing” style to my ear. I recently started playing tenor about 3 months ago, ex-tuba player who picked up the bone after a long hiatus, over 10 years, didn’t want to fork out the bucks for a decent tuba I have been searching Amazon Music for the trombone player I would like to emulate the most. I have listened to a lot of trombone music, and for me personally, Bill Watrous has the most smooth, mellow and sonorous sound of any bone player. When he plays Unforgettable on Bone-ified and I close my eyes, it almost sounds like Natalie Cole is humming, again IMHO.

Hmmm. Will listen later to the AK track, and deeply respect his track record. But gonna ask a question...are folks listening for technical perfection, or are they listening for communication, message, and heart? To be clear, they are not at all mutually exclusive, and technique will certainly enhance communicative possibilities. But it may be useful to sort priorities on the chops/expression continuum. I find early Watrous very difficult in this regard - phenomenal chops, but a narrow expressive range and limited emotional impact. That changed as he aged -- the last few times I saw him, the newly-revealed depth of feeling was a revelation. To quote an early, non-bone mentor: "Blow the Truth!"