TromboneChat

I prefer Instrument innovation's axials, but there are so many valves on the market today, which ones do you love, and which ones do you not like?

For me, Kanstul CR valves are the best. Love the throw, love the feel. 2nd best are Meinlschmidt Open Flow valves.

The lowly .530 King rotor found on the 3B/F. What a beaut.

Which valve? On which instrument? Playing what mouthpiece?? The list could be endless.

Burgerbob wrote: ↑Mon Jun 05, 2023 3:03 pm The lowly .530 King rotor found on the 3B/F. What a beaut.

Honestly, I have to agree. I’ve yet to play a 607 or 3BF with a bad rotor. They universally have good action, I’m a fan of the ergonomics, and they have a great low range paired with the right mouthpiece.

I’m liking Caidex and the Yamaha V valves these days

The disc valve, entirely because of how cool it looks. 2nd place goes to the pumpenvalve.

...oh, we're talking about trombones?

Side note, bummed I missed adding a Hagmann to my collection.

Favorite? Probably none right now, but I want to get back on better rotors. Getting annoyed by valves that seal on two planes (like an axial or Trubore or Hagmann).

For amusement I’m playing the K on tenor this month… it is not better than the others.

Cheers,
Andy

EL34.
(hopefully someone gets it)

JohnL wrote: ↑Mon Jun 05, 2023 8:47 pm EL34.
(hopefully someone gets it)

I prefer 6CA7 or 5881 valves.

Instrument Innovations rotary.

JohnL wrote: ↑Mon Jun 05, 2023 8:47 pm EL34.
(hopefully someone gets it)

2A3 anytime

JohnL wrote: ↑Mon Jun 05, 2023 8:47 pm EL34.
(hopefully someone gets it)

I'm very much a 6L6 or EL84 kind of guy.

Medium low wattage.

I'm enjoying no valve on my tenor!

Apparently you have to use words. A photo is not acceptable by itself...

Playing only rotary valves and have never really been tempted to go somewhere else.
My overall best (American) trombones have Greenhoe valves, however that's certainly also due to other factors.
E.g. I also like the regular modern Conn rotor on my 88ht. While I absolutely avoid the trigger range on my Elkhart 88h.

I have to vote YES on the Instrument Innovations Rotary Valve. Opened my 42BO up

Instrument Innovations Rotary Valve, for both tenor and bass.

I've gone back to Shires axials on both my large bore tenor and bass. I have a Conn 78H special with a darn nice rotor too.

hornbuilder wrote: ↑Tue Jun 06, 2023 6:07 am Apparently you have to use words. A photo is not acceptable by itself...

Matthew, your photos are good enough for me

hornbuilder wrote: ↑Tue Jun 06, 2023 6:07 am Apparently you have to use words. A photo is not acceptable by itself...

Yup. Those are Damn good valves!!!

Finetales wrote: ↑Mon Jun 05, 2023 5:51 pm The disc valve, entirely because of how cool it looks. 2nd place goes to the pumpenvalve.

...oh, we're talking about trombones?

Both have been used on trombones (well, not actually a disk valve, but the same principle).

WGWTR180 wrote: ↑Tue Jun 06, 2023 12:39 pm

hornbuilder wrote: ↑Tue Jun 06, 2023 6:07 am Apparently you have to use words. A photo is not acceptable by itself...

Yup. Those are Damn good valves!!!

I have to agree - M&W rotors win in every actual-use circumstance I’ve encountered as a professional musician. They just play so similarly on both sides of the horn. And on bass, the various valve combinations sound/feel as equal as any horn I’ve ever played. They’re silent during engagement and use air more efficiently; they don’t lose air compression during transition, so they don’t disturb the normal flow of your phrasing when using different combinations. Plus, unlike some of those mentioned above, they come with an instrument of the highest caliber already attached and ready to play, haha!

Honorable mentions:
- Thein’s Universal bass rotors were also excellent at ATW. Didn’t find a single thing to complain about with those instruments on the whole, though I didn’t spend more than a couple minutes with them individually. IMO, Thein and M&W are the best horns available that I’ve tried (after owning multiple custom-chosen setups from most of the professional-level tbn brands, but not from some of the small boutique European builders). Thein/M&W’s valves, careful/thoughtful/skillful design and expert construction, and ultra-fine tolerances/standards, IMO, bring them to the next level. [I’ve found that Rath, Haag, and a few others have similar quality and care, for the record...]
- Progressive Hagmanns (especially with custom-weighted caps for refinement of centering feel and dialing in the dynamic-related brilliance spectrum) have just the right resistance/openness, while giving super quick engagement. They also add a really special vibrancy to the sound at higher dynamics, especially in the low valve range on bass. However, in the examples I’ve played, they do not quite have as consistent a feel and sound between the various valve combinations that M&W rotors offer. So, it’s more of a trade-off, IMO, than horns that use the best rotors.
- Premium Axials, while they’re working, just after cleaning/lubrication/reassembly/alignment, if they have specially fitted/optimized lever geometry for reduced actuation throw, on horns designed to balance well with very open valves, in the right ensemble/section/music, are good too I guess…
- I actually still LOVE the super-quick engagement & smooth action of the string-linked rotors on my old Elkhart Conn 60H horns. They’re fun to use and also need basically no maintenance to work reliably with amazing action. Yes, they affect the sound of the horn much more than a modern, full-bore valve. But, they’re also super lightweight and help keep the horn responsive!
I bet those nickel-silver M&W valves would be perfect for a retrofit on my old Conn 60Hs… could still happen, Matthew!?!

I don't experiment with valves - I just use whatever came on my (mostly "vintage") trombones.

Believe it or not, I've been enjoying lately playing my Conn 88HCL (from about 2003?) with the big clunky-looking but smooth and very short-throw CL2000 "Christian Lindberg" valve. Works great for me. Valve does not hit my neck.

I also like the valve, also smooth and "unstuffy," on my Benge 165F (~2002?)

I guess I'm a dinosaur.

The CL2000 is incredible. I wish I could have it as an option on my horn. At least the patent ran out, other people could recreate it if they wanted

I am digging Hagmanns right now. I had *never* had the chance to try one until a couple months ago - in the form of a Besson 944R large tenor. What a wonderful horn and nice valve.

And then a few weeks ago I acquired a Besson double-Hagmann independent bass! Also a fine horn.

harrisonreed wrote: ↑Tue Jun 06, 2023 3:02 pm The CL2000 is incredible. I wish I could have it as an option on my horn. At least the patent ran out, other people could recreate it if they wanted

Fwiw a tech can order you one. Or at leas they could as of maybe last year or so. Although with the supply chain issues may be easier said than done

At the moment this one is the best I‘ve ever played

Matt K wrote: ↑Tue Jun 06, 2023 5:00 pm

harrisonreed wrote: ↑Tue Jun 06, 2023 3:02 pm The CL2000 is incredible. I wish I could have it as an option on my horn. At least the patent ran out, other people could recreate it if they wanted

Fwiw a tech can order you one. Or at leas they could as of maybe last year or so. Although with the supply chain issues may be easier said than done

The "easiest" (but most expensive) option is probably to find a CL2000-equipped horn and cannibalize it for parts.

spencercarran wrote: ↑Thu Jun 08, 2023 11:05 am

Matt K wrote: ↑Tue Jun 06, 2023 5:00 pm Fwiw a tech can order you one. Or at leas they could as of maybe last year or so. Although with the supply chain issues may be easier said than done

The "easiest" (but most expensive) option is probably to find a CL2000-equipped horn and cannibalize it for parts.

The BEST option is to buy a Conn 88HCL in good condition, take good care of it, and play it. Very fine trombones (or Christian Lindberg wouldn't play one!).

They can be very good horns, but aren’t everyone’s proverbial cup of tea. Especially the gen ii ones with the soldered bell beads.

Without question (for me) the valve section of choice is the M&W by Matt Walker (hornbuilder) Everyone is different, and this is my personal experience. I may have been around for a few years, too.

After months of hemming and hawing trying to decide what to install on a wonderful Corporation straight 42, I finally settled on this. Matt's f-attachment transformed it into a truly phenomenal instrument at a level that I honestly didn't think was possible. And yes, the honeymoon period is over.

In a years-long professional orchestral career I've gone through all of the axial flow valves including the original O.E. Thayer on a 42, the cutaway anodized aluminum valves that Steve Shires used on my very early Shires bass trombone, the Shires axial and the Edwards axial. I've also owned Bach traditional rotary valve sections open-wrapped and ported by Ron Partch, Rotax valves, have played on Hagmanns, Yamaha rotaries, and I also am the lucky owner of a Marston-valved 42B.

The M&W valve section is perfectly balanced from a resistance vs openness aspect, is crazy responsive, quick and quiet, and wins hands down.

Worth every single cent.

Just remember though, it's not HOW you play, it's WHAT you play.

meine wrote: ↑Wed Jun 07, 2023 10:55 pm At the moment this one is the best I‘ve ever played

And this is..............

WGWTR180 wrote: ↑Mon Jun 12, 2023 3:04 pm

meine wrote: ↑Wed Jun 07, 2023 10:55 pm At the moment this one is the best I‘ve ever played

And this is..............

Willson Caidex

I'm partial to the Christian Lindberg valve. Big and open, and a super short throw.

Trav1s wrote: ↑Mon Jun 12, 2023 3:10 pm

WGWTR180 wrote: ↑Mon Jun 12, 2023 3:04 pm

And this is..............

Willson Caidex

Yes that I saw! Thx. Curious about the entire package.

I play Greenhoe rotors but really loved when Edwards used Rotax valves. A lot of people don't like them but given the opportunity I wouldn't mind switching to them.

WGWTR180 wrote: ↑Mon Jun 12, 2023 3:43 pm

Trav1s wrote: ↑Mon Jun 12, 2023 3:10 pm

Willson Caidex

Yes that I saw! Thx. Curious about the entire package.

This horn is a Thein build german style valve section. Attached is a Conn 62H sterling silver bell hand engraved by BAC.

Lately I've really been enjoying a hagmanns, just very consistent on both sides of the valve. While many seem to find them finicky, I find it easy to maintain, and have had zero issues. Also worth mentioning I spent some time lapping this one to smoother than glass prior to install. Meinlschmidt valves are also high up on the list, particularly the radial flow.

I'm still a fan of the Rotax valve - I've had one on my 79H for 10 years now and no regrets with the choice.

The Greenhoe valve is still up there in my book and the Getzen/Edwards Power Bore is another solid choice.

I love my Edwards CR valve. I think it is more the whole system with the wrap, the pillar and the bracing that make it all work. The mass of the valve and tubing let the horn play more like a horn without a valve then any other I have tried.

The big valves seem to hit my neck and feel more like a dampener on my sound.

I play dual bore horns, mostly a 547/562 so the horn is more open then a valve would change.

I also have a dependent bass horn that has a 2nd valve in C. The tubing for the 2nd valve in C is oversized. So even with the original Bach valves it plays pretty good. So I think if I needed more air to get though the horn, I would open something up rather that put a heavy valve on.

I heard Ian Bousfield say of his Getzen that has the same valve as my horn, It is about the resonance.

My top list of 2023:
1- Old School Straight Trombone. Minimalistic and beautiful. Quickest sound response. No mechanical work and oil needed. Great sound. No extra money required for a most of the time unnecessary valve. Keeps my slide technique good in the middle/lower range. For me the obvious winner. Best Buy.
2- The MW valve. Plays big and beautiful. Needs much oil, but if managed well plays and works amazingly. Great all round valve.
3- Shires Dual Bore. Very focused,. Very quick and short throw. My favorite for most smaller settings when a valve is required. Good for solo, ensemble, small orchestra, wind band, operas, musicals, most settings I can think of if I need to play in the valve range (honestly not so often though).
4- O. E. Thayer. Still amazing. Love it.

Trav1s wrote: ↑Tue Jun 13, 2023 4:24 am ...the Getzen/Edwards Power Bore is another solid choice.

If Getzen sneakily put these on the Eterna basses and didn't mention it, shame on them. The valves on my 1052 are easily the best rotors I have ever played, very even feel through the valve registers, and my current favorite.

Now I haven't had an opportunity to test play a bunch of horns in my life, so my sample size is pretty limited. But of what I own, I'd rank after the Getzen:

2. Straight neck pipe (6H). Enough said, right? I'm not playing it much, but I'm sure there will be some tenor gigs out there...

3. JP Euphonium pistons. Yup, I said it. After a thorough cleaning and swabbing, these pistons are now fast and (relatively because compensating) light now. I use ultra pure with these.

4. Holton rotor. It needs a new bearing plate ($$ and time) but I dig how short and light the throw (string linkage) is. Sound is nice and compact, if more resistant than the other rotors.

5. Tuba rotors. To get these to the level of the other valves will take too much time that i can't get. I play this year round, am usually the only tuba in my bands, and just have to make do. They're actually quite open, but there's much more surface area, making slurs and such difficult.

I use Holton oil for rotor bodies and Yamaha spindle oil. For joints, it's Yamaha medium key oil.

For me the best valves I can think of working with on a daily basis are stil Axials. I own Edwards Basses with Edwards Axials and an Edwards Bass with Shires Axials which I almost love even more.

Hangman’s for whatever reason never felt just right to me.


They are not accessible to me at the moment and I do not have reason to go a highly customized route, but I believe the most superior design by far are Lätzsch Full Flow valves.

As they are carbon based they are self lubricating which means the only maintenance they need is a few drops of water every few weeks. They look like slightly oversized rotaries but just perform so easily. As always with Lätzsch they did a terrible job advertising a very high end product.

I very much like the AR Edwards valves on my B502. I will be getting the Instrument Innovations on a Butler C12 and am looking forward to playing those. I've played lots of different valves, we should get together and chat sometime.