TromboneChat

I want a contrabass trombone, as they are cool and I am primarily a tubist, so I know I have plenty of air. I should state that I am no professional so my thought process was why buy a professional instrument that you really only want for fun? But then I am left with a huge price gap, other than the wessex contrabass, it seems you have to price point options, 1.5k-2k or 15k-20k. Would the cheap Chinese contrabasses satisfy my loud obnoxious desires or am I out of luck? I really want the low and the loud so I can play trombone choir stuff with my friends and maybe make a few Instagram posts or something.
Any and all input is appreciated.

To be pretty brutal about it, the call for using a contra as a non-professional is close to zero.

Most cheap contras are either poorly built or don't sound that great. I doubt the cost-benefit for a quality contra is worth the extra expense, though.

If all you want to do is hack around, the cheap Chinese contra may fill the bill. It may need a bit (or maybe a lot) of professional attention to get it to function properly, though.

Back in the Bad Old Days, we used to cover the contra parts on a double valve bass. Maybe get a nice double valve bass and a large mouthpiece to satisfy your "loud and obnoxious" yen. Would be a lot easier to learn than an instrument in F with some odd valves.

In three words: not worth it.

The base level Thein copies with fake Hagmanns are not good horns. They make noise, but not a good noise, not easily, and not reliably.

The middle level Wessex with rotors are also not good horns. The noise is better, it's a bit easier, and it's a bit more reliable... but they are now like $4k. You could buy a very, very good pro level bass trombone that will do literally everything better (but be 3 feet shorter) for that kind of money.

--here lies a $5000 gap--

The $9k level is full of good horns, like the Voight, Leuchter, used Theins, etc.

Above that lies the new German and Austrian horns, which are all good too.

Past the price and how they play, contra is also largely useless. I have owned two, continuously for 5 years or so now, and I have never been paid to play it, despite living and playing in the most contra-heavy city in the world. I have spent (wasted...?) a LOT of time and money getting a horn and getting good at it... for no reason as of yet.

I know someone in New York, great player and a colleague, who bought a Dillon Contra. I asked him how he liked it and he responded "I Like the price." He sounds great on it. However not arguing that a better instrument would be a better choice.

Burgerbob wrote: ↑Thu May 11, 2023 11:22 am ....I have spent (wasted...?) a LOT of time and money getting a horn and getting good at it... for no reason as of yet.

But if you DO get a call you'd better be ready...

Happened to see this today:

https://www.kleinanzeigen.de/s-anzeige ... 4-74-19809

It‘s an M.Enders Contra, looks beautiful and is up for €5520.

After a brief drool, common sense returned to me and I carried on scrolling.

Doug Elliott wrote: ↑Thu May 11, 2023 12:36 pm

Burgerbob wrote: ↑Thu May 11, 2023 11:22 am ....I have spent (wasted...?) a LOT of time and money getting a horn and getting good at it... for no reason as of yet.

But if you DO get a call you'd better be ready...

Oh, absolutely.

People keep asking me why I don't have a contra yet. This thread perfectly explains why.

Look. If you’re one of THE CATS in LA you’d better own and know how to play a Contra. In NYC there is a need and there are more than a handful who own and play them well. Other than that…….

MrHCinDE wrote: ↑Thu May 11, 2023 12:58 pm Happened to see this today:

https://www.kleinanzeigen.de/s-anzeige ... 4-74-19809

It‘s an M.Enders Contra, looks beautiful and is up for €5520.

"The king of the trombone family" !

That Enders contra has been on eBay-Kleinanzeigen for quite a while, so if you want it you probably don't have to hurry.

Finetales wrote: ↑Thu May 11, 2023 3:58 pm That Enders contra has been on eBay-Kleinanzeigen for quite a while, so if you want it you probably don't have to hurry.

My interest in it came and went pretty quickly! Just simply have no need for one but I do appreciate the craftsmanship.

I'd think the cimbasso would be both a better instrument and rather to adapt to for a tuba player.

Oh yes! as harrisonred said, the cimbasso would be the perfect instrument for a tuba player who want to play the bottom part in trombone ensembles. A contrabass trombone is heavy, painfull just to hold, slide positions that takes a lot a time to learn, a decent one is very expencive.

I am again and again tempted to buy a contra, but don't have any realistic use for it. So I am hoping to at some point find a really good offering.

I also saw that Enders contra, but on the one hand this is still a lot of money and on the other hand - without having seen that specific instrument - I feel it would still need at least some minor adaptions.

Is there actually a variant of the Chinese contras (outside Wessex which is still a bit too expensive for my taste/need) with regular rotary valves? On the one hand I generally only play rotors and don't want to change that and on the other hand I would think that regular rotaries are harder to f... up than fake Hagmans.

And rotors would be cheaper / easier to replace than hagmanns. It does mystify me why they chose to emulate Hagmanns on those copy contras…

No contra for me. Not worth the physical pain, price, space, time or headache it takes to learn. I would never get a call to play contra it would ONLY be an instrument to play with at home. I rather pick up the trumpet, cornet, flygel or french horn again, instruments I struggled to learn during pandemic. I have had a gig on trumpet once when I only had a jupiter slide trumpet, and there is always a shortage of good amateur french horn players. Even if I put out an add and offered to pay money to play contra it will still not happen. I would not find an ensemble. It's an instrument for a very limited group of professional people or VERY dedicated amateurs and collectors.

/Tom

I'm more attracted by the Cimbasso. But there is a 0% possibility that I will have a gig on one.

Maybe I should invest in a good tuba or finally learn French horn..

imsevimse wrote: ↑Fri May 12, 2023 4:40 am No contra for me. Not worth the physical pain, price, space, time or headache it takes to learn. I would never get a call to play contra it would ONLY be an instrument to play with at home. I rather pick up the trumpet, cornet, flygel or french horn again, instruments I struggled to learn during pandemic. I have had a gig on trumpet once when I only had a jupiter slide trumpet, and there is always a shortage of good amateur french horn players. Even if I put out an add and offered to pay money to play contra it will still not happen. I would not find an ensemble. It's an instrument for a very limited group of professional people or VERY dedicated amateurs and collectors.

/Tom

I totally see those points. I might have some rare opportunities to play it, but not too many.
However I learned contra intensely for a few years, so would probably be fluent relatively quickly again.
But definitely just a fun instrument, therefor not worth investing too much.

SwissTbone wrote: ↑Fri May 12, 2023 5:10 am I'm more attracted by the Cimbasso. But there is a 0% possibility that I will have a gig on one.

Maybe I should invest in a good tuba or finally learn French horn..

Or you could take up the viola!

You would constantly be in demand and it could help with reading alto clef music.

But the biggest benefit would your gaining a new perspective of trombone playing; you could immediately find out what the section sounds like from in front of the instruments, i.e. from where the audience hears them; You would experience what the conductor hears from the trombones; you could gauge how much louder you could play when you go back to playing your trombone!

Cheers

Stewbones43

stewbones43 wrote: ↑Fri May 12, 2023 5:40 am

SwissTbone wrote: ↑Fri May 12, 2023 5:10 am I'm more attracted by the Cimbasso. But there is a 0% possibility that I will have a gig on one.

Maybe I should invest in a good tuba or finally learn French horn..

Or you could take up the viola!

You would constantly be in demand and it could help with reading alto clef music.

But the biggest benefit would your gaining a new perspective of trombone playing; you could immediately find out what the section sounds like from in front of the instruments, i.e. from where the audience hears them; You would experience what the conductor hears from the trombones; you could gauge how much louder you could play when you go back to playing your trombone!

Cheers

Stewbones43

Ehm... I had a really fun comment ready. But that may insult some viola players. So... no thank

MStarke wrote: ↑Fri May 12, 2023 4:09 am .

Is there actually a variant of the Chinese contras (outside Wessex which is still a bit too expensive for my taste/need) with regular rotary valves?

Nope.

Yeah, they usually copy an instrument in its entirety, so they copied the Hagmann valves.

Honestly the only contrabass I have even SEEN in the flesh was the Shires F "conversion", which I did not try out, and heard mixed things about. I was acquainted with a tuba player who sometimes played one of the Miraphone BBb contrabasses as needed, which he said "played ok", but that's also coming from a Tuba player perspective.

The "cheap" contrabasses are pretty much filling a market of people who really want to say that they have a "Contrabass trombone", but maybe not actually USE the contrabass trombone.

If you do want one to "use" honestly I would just be watching the Brass Ark, which has had all variety of interesting Contrabass trombones over they years, in various different keys. Heck he's got three listed right now, all wildly different, and that should be a key take away. The various designs out there vary WIDELY in how they are implemented.

Our Bass Trombonist here has a Wessex Contra and sounds quite good on it. He has no illusions that it could compete with a Thein (etc.), but with a lille bit of work, he has come to the point that he can make a good sound on it and can play it in tune. It sounded great when we played "The Ring Without Words" - the concert version of Ring excerpts (without singers) that Loren Maazel put together. He also pulls it out for the occasional ensemble for a Trombone Day. Not enough work in this market to support spending multiple thousands for a contra, but the Wessex does OK. Our Tuba player has one of their Cimbassos, and same deal - it plays OK for a good player willing to put in some work on it. The Cimbasso passages in Verdi's Macbeth for the Opera here last month were spectacular! I'm sure both of my colleagues would have an easier time with the best German/Austrian versions of those instruments, but there's not enough work on them to justify the expense, and their kids like to eat!

Jim Scott

BGuttman wrote: ↑Thu May 11, 2023 11:04 am Back in the Bad Old Days, we used to cover the contra parts on a double valve bass. Maybe get a nice double valve bass and a large mouthpiece to satisfy your "loud and obnoxious" yen. Would be a lot easier to learn than an instrument in F with some odd valves.

Are there any bass trombones you could recommend? My high school has two but one is a DISGUSTING dependendent yamaha and the other is a broken conn so I dont have much to go off of. I do play tenor trombone just for the record.

harrisonreed wrote: ↑Fri May 12, 2023 12:06 am I'd think the cimbasso would be both a better instrument and rather to adapt to for a tuba player.

Cimbasso's are freakishly expensive. Also I already play trombone so the only adaptations I would have would be a bigger bore and longer slide positions

CooperBayliff wrote: ↑Sat May 13, 2023 4:02 pm

BGuttman wrote: ↑Thu May 11, 2023 11:04 am Back in the Bad Old Days, we used to cover the contra parts on a double valve bass. Maybe get a nice double valve bass and a large mouthpiece to satisfy your "loud and obnoxious" yen. Would be a lot easier to learn than an instrument in F with some odd valves.

Are there any bass trombones you could recommend? My high school has two but one is a DISGUSTING dependent yamaha and the other is a broken conn so I dont have much to go off of. I do play tenor trombone just for the record.

The "disgusting" dependent Yamaha would work. So would a Conn 62H or 112H (if it's broken, see if it can be fixed). I played some contra parts on my King 7B although a Bach 50B3 or Holton TR-180 would work as well. The Yamaha 613 (independent) or 612 (dependent) also work nicely.

You should be able to get a better Cimbasso than a contrabass trombone for comparable money. If you think a Cimbasso is too expensive, a contra is going to be much worse.

CooperBayliff wrote: ↑Sat May 13, 2023 4:05 pm

harrisonreed wrote: ↑Fri May 12, 2023 12:06 am I'd think the cimbasso would be both a better instrument and rather to adapt to for a tuba player.

Cimbasso's are freakishly expensive.

So are Contras, as you yourself have said. So...

Also I already play trombone so the only adaptations I would have would be a bigger bore and longer slide positions

*looks at his alto, after 15 years of practice and spirit quests*

Sure!

Actually looking back on your posts:

CooperBayliff wrote: ↑Thu May 11, 2023 8:29 am I want a contrabass trombone, as they are cool and I am primarily a tubist, so I know I have plenty of air.

Therefore, contra.

I should state that I am no professional so my thought process was why buy a professional instrument that you really only want for fun?

Fair.

But then I am left with a huge price gap, other than the wessex contrabass, it seems you have to price point options, 1.5k-2k or 15k-20k.

Pretty decent chunk of change, no matter how you split it.

Would the cheap Chinese contrabasses satisfy my loud obnoxious desires or am I out of luck?

Chinese contra = contra = obnoxious = luck in

I really want the low and the loud so I can play trombone choir stuff with my friends and maybe make a few Instagram posts or something.

Instagram demands cheap chinese-made contra. I see no reason to debate, since a high schooler is not going to buy a $15k contra. A $2k contra will look as good on Instagram as a $20k one. The Long March 9 needs to be funded somehow.

Some thoughts….

I would not purchase a contrabass trombone for the gigs that will come with it. If the instrument intrigues you, go for it. In my 8 years performing on my contrabass trombone, I have found that the player has to find the opportunities to use the instrument.

If you are going to purchase an instrument, I would recommend the following types of groups to use it…
-Trombone Choir
-Trombone Quintet
-Brass Quintet
-Brass Ensemble (Tuba part, when 2 tubas are needed)

That’s where I began with it and it has been helpful in my development on bass and contra. I now have a music director of our orchestra who enjoys having this instrument in our orchestra and has welcomed it the past 7 seasons….when appropriate. The brass ensemble I perform in here now considers this instrument as a natural part of the group. We are having a work commissioned by a composer and the contra will be used prominently.

To purchase any instrument for “the gigs that will come with it” is tough sell in my opinion. I really enjoy performing on this instrument and use it whenever I can.

Hope this helps.

Am I to understand that OP is wishing to buy a contra before a bass? That seems unusual to me. You will actually get a ton of utility out of a double valve bass. I would highly recommend getting one of those first. At this price point you can get superb instruments on the used market. Heck even new if you’re talking about in between 2k and 15k. I don’t think any US manufacturer has broached 10k yet. Being pitched in Bb, there’s hardly any learning curve at all compared to tenor. At least compared to contra or alto.

Other instruments you’d be able to get and pick up relatively quickly, with varying degrees of learning curve, utility, price, and obnoxiousness are: euphonium, Bb tuba, F or Eb tuba, and Bb sousaphone. Bb instruments have fingerings that correlate to slide positions so a lot of people find them to be quick doubles to pick up.

What would the long term affects of an affordable, quality contrabass trombone coming to market? Would the musical demand increase due to an influx of contra bass trombone players?

JKBone85 wrote: ↑Mon May 15, 2023 6:25 am What would the long term affects of an affordable, quality contrabass trombone coming to market? Would the musical demand increase due to an influx of contra bass trombone players?

Organizations playing the old warhorse classical stuff? No effect. There is almost no call in classical music for a contrabass trombone.
Movie studios already make use of contrabass trombones, so no effect.

A contra fits well in the Moravian Trombone choir. Most of them seem to use the Mirafone BBb for convenience (a regular bass trombone player can pick one up and play it). A new and inexpensive contra might be of use here. Other trombone choirs may also benefit, but there aren't too many of them and I can't see much increase -- it's a niche taste.

Could one substitute in the 5th chair in a Brass Quintet? Maybe. But the music seems to be written partly for bass trombone in that chair and partly for tuba in that chair. A contra is sorta "tween" and I don't know how it would fit.

If good quality and reliable contras were available, it's possible that composers might write for them. Unfortunately, the market for such works is pretty limited. Most of the good compositional opportunities are for school ensembles and the likelihood of the schools adding a contra to the stable is smaller than the likelihood of a contrabass clarinet or contrabassoon.

In short, I don't think there is a real market effect of a good cheap contra, except to feed a high schooler's "wet dream".

stewbones43 wrote: ↑Fri May 12, 2023 5:40 am
Or you could take up the viola!

You would constantly be in demand and it could help with reading alto clef music.

But the biggest benefit would your gaining a new perspective of trombone playing; you could immediately find out what the section sounds like from in front of the instruments, i.e. from where the audience hears them;

Sorry for the diversion, but:

I play in a small community band and sit behind the two flutes and one piccolo/flute. I'm the only trombone but for our semiannual concert we add a couple of good local players, and the band ends up sitting a little closer together as some other sections get a fill-in or two also. In a very live room.

After the concert one of the flute players mentioned to me that she had not heard a single note she'd played in the entire concert.

Now back to contras.

timothy42b wrote: ↑Mon May 15, 2023 8:16 am

stewbones43 wrote: ↑Fri May 12, 2023 5:40 am
Or you could take up the viola!

You would constantly be in demand and it could help with reading alto clef music.

But the biggest benefit would your gaining a new perspective of trombone playing; you could immediately find out what the section sounds like from in front of the instruments, i.e. from where the audience hears them;

Sorry for the diversion, but:

I play in a small community band and sit behind the two flutes and one piccolo/flute. I'm the only trombone but for our semiannual concert we add a couple of good local players, and the band ends up sitting a little closer together as some other sections get a fill-in or two also. In a very live room.

After the concert one of the flute players mentioned to me that she had not heard a single note she'd played in the entire concert.

Now back to contras.

She was lucky, you probably heard all of her notes

Stewbones43

timothy42b wrote: ↑Mon May 15, 2023 8:16 am After the concert one of the flute players mentioned to me that she had not heard a single note she'd played in the entire concert.

Now back to contras.

Sounds like a successful concert to me.

BGuttman wrote: ↑Mon May 15, 2023 6:39 am ... I don't think there is a real market effect of a good cheap contra, except to feed a high schooler's "wet dream".

And there you have it. The basis of this entire thread!

Posaunus wrote: ↑Mon May 15, 2023 9:38 am

BGuttman wrote: ↑Mon May 15, 2023 6:39 am ... I don't think there is a real market effect of a good cheap contra, except to feed a high schooler's "wet dream".

And there you have it. The basis of this entire thread!

And the above is the exact and only realistic reason for me to want one. Biologically I should be around 37, mentally still in the wet dreams category reg contras.

Playing contra bass trombone is something aspiring professional bass trombonists are taught in Germany during their college years. That is because the bigger orchestras, mainly opera orchestras, typically require 2-3 excerpts in contra when they have an audition for bass trombone, it’s often part of the actual contract to have the obligation to play contra when needed.

As such I had some exposure to it in Germany, a Lätzsch owned by the conservatory. Beautiful.

It took 5 years or living, studying and working professionally in America until the need for one came up for me.

Soundtrack to Tim Burton’s “Alice in Wonderland” has some great moments. The orchestra rented a Chinese horn owned by a famous west coast studio legend. I got it just a few days before the first rehearsal, fun to play….until the fake hagmanvalve gave up. Was able to still use it with some minor fixes,but of course not a great horn compared to the Lätzsch.

As I kept playing occasional movie soundtracks (with the movie running in the back) I finally bought another Chinese model, just to stay in shape on it and use it occasionally. That onewas MUCH better, reliable enough to use it and relatively even and stable, compared to what I paid that was a lot of bang for my buck.

Should have never sold it.

SwissTbone wrote: ↑Mon May 15, 2023 9:35 am

timothy42b wrote: ↑Mon May 15, 2023 8:16 am After the concert one of the flute players mentioned to me that she had not heard a single note she'd played in the entire concert.

Now back to contras.

Sounds like a successful concert to me.

Proof of karma:

This week I played a concert in a tight space, and as the only trombone I was wedged between horn (on my left pointing at me) and trap set, in front of two trumpets.

I did not hear any of my notes. I asked the director afterwards*. She said the trumpets were really loud tonight, but when she did hear me I was spot on. O..kay.

* I looked up how to spell it. When it refers to time, it's afterwards; when to words, it's afterwords. Who knew?