TromboneChat

I was at a jazz concert the other evening, Steve Ture, who was wildly good. One of those players that just makes it feel like I should really be practicing 5 times as much.

He had this flashy trick, and I've seen Nils Landgren do it as well, where he lip slurred up through his whole partial range while moving the slide out. Makes this really insane chromatic vibe that is just electric. What is that called? And how on earth does one get good at it?

Seems there's some combination of timing the lip slurs to the positions and also just having partial flexibility to get it to sound good.

I've been trying to do it myself and I can't get the lip slurs without way over blowing, and I just sound like a drunk elephant.

Seems likely I need to just run lip slurs everyday for the next 15 years, but what other exercises can I be doing to build that insane flexibility?

I think I'm coming to terms with the reality that I cannot just buy mouthpieces until I sound better, unfortunately!

It may look flashy, but the technique is called "fretting". Basically moving up lip pitches as the slide goes out. If you have done your rangebuilding and can easily reach the 8th partial and higher, you can do this. It does take some practice to bring it under control.

Did Turre play his conch shell also?

BGuttman wrote: ↑Mon May 01, 2023 3:38 pm It may look flashy, but the technique is called "fretting". Basically moving up lip pitches as the slide goes out. If you have done your rangebuilding and can easily reach the 8th partial and higher, you can do this. It does take some practice to bring it under control.

Did Turre play his conch shell also?

He absolutely did, incredible to see. He's got the technique to a level where he can play 2 shells at once. Wildly skilled player, an inspiration to be sure.

none4u wrote: ↑Mon May 01, 2023 2:54 pm Seems there's some combination of timing the lip slurs to the positions and also just having partial flexibility to get it to sound good.

Yeah, this sums it up pretty well.

All great trombonists come up with some way of doing fretting and "rips" because once you get it "under your skin", it's actually one of the easier ways to play something fairly flashy on trombone. It's definitely worth spending the time to figure it out.

It may seem flashy now but it gets old quick.

"Fretting" aka playing against the grain does require a good deal of woodshedding for sure. Not only require flexibility, but also solid knowledge of your alternate positions. There are at least two books that address this technique that I can think of: one is by Greg Waits and the other by David Baker. Both are available from Hickey's Online. Hope this helps.

Steve Turre isn't just a spectacular trombone, and shell player, he is also a fine arranger. One of my favorite arrangements from him is the one of Duke Ellington's "Echoes of Harlem." He reduced the whole thing to trombone-cello duet with the trombone muted and using the plunger in one of the most bad-ass performances that I ever heard.

To me it sounds like you're describing a "doit" (pronounced "doyt"). If you're trying to get higher notes just by pushing the air harder, it won't work. Say the word "doit" and notice how your tongue elevates towards the end. Using the tongue like this while playing will help you sound less like a drunk elephant.

Doug Elliott wrote: ↑Mon May 01, 2023 8:13 pm It may seem flashy now but it gets old quick.

I mean, sure, we all know that playing legato ballads is the most difficult thing. It's less about wanting to be flashy for me, and more that I just want that partial flexibility and control.

There's an equivalent on every instrument it seems. Flashy doesn't mean good! But I do want all the tools in my belt.

Your description sounds like that might be a rip? French horn players do it a lot.


I know I'm nitpicking and not all agree on this one, but my position is that fretting and crossgrain playing are two different things. Fretting originally referred to playing a lick starting in a given position then repeating it starting one down, etc. I was a few feet from Jim Pugh when he explained that and demonstrated, and it's that way in some of the older method books. That's the way guitar and banjo players use the term, and it makes more sense to me.

Crossgrain playing is really specific to trombone, other instruments just call it slurring.

This article assumes you have some basic skills in lip flexibly and music theory already, but you might find what you're looking for in it.

https://www.trombone.org/articles/view.php?id=201

Try this out at bar 39. Read as tenor clef in F major. F in 1, A in 2, C in 3, F in 4 . Seems to work better than all in 6th or standard positions.
https://www.obrassomusic.co.uk/noten/so ... -polka.pdf

Fretting, a horn rip, playing against the grain, the "dooit", whatever you want to call it, isn't that flashy of a technique. The set we are playing tomorrow has it in three of the pieces for the bone section. It's a tool arrangers are going to assume you have.

The coolest version I've heard someone use it for is the "chromatic rip", I think in the first movement of the "Mandrake in the Corner" concerto. In the music, there is an impossibly difficult chromatic run from Db4 to F5, written in the music, over one measure in a pretty fast tempo. The music has no indication to play it as a rip. The way you do it, is to articulate the first four notes and then rip from F4 to F5, 1st to 6th positions. I'll be damned if the BIS recording doesn't have every stinking note in the scale *perfectly* in time, sounding like they were doodle tongued.

Take Watrous' examples and find all other variations that are available using notes within one slide position of each other. This would include halting the slide for notes in same position. Lots of pentatonic fragments show up.

Reverse direction within some of these. 42R could easily go D E G F#, like an approach figure to the F#. (More broadly, this illustrates playing "along the way" or "slipping", a word Watrous used to describe how Fontana played.)

Lay a tongue on these for great clarity and time.

Cycle them, but with different starting points in the figure, and use different rhythms. Put a tongue in the middle. The most extreme example I can recall is Rosolino cycling over four notes with a five note rhythm. The rhythm was a common two eights duple and an eighths triple. Tongue (I think, it was very fast) happened at the duple and the triple. The pattern rotates around the four notes maddeningly and the notes crackled.

Hear what Willie Dennis did.

harrisonreed wrote: ↑Tue May 02, 2023 10:20 am Fretting, a horn rip, playing against the grain, the "dooit", whatever you want to call it, isn't that flashy of a technique. The set we are playing tomorrow has it in three of the pieces for the bone section. It's a tool arrangers are going to assume you have.

The coolest version I've heard someone use it for is the "chromatic rip", I think in the first movement of the "Mandrake in the Corner" concerto. In the music, there is an impossibly difficult chromatic run from Db4 to F5, written in the music, over one measure in a pretty fast tempo. The music has no indication to play it as a rip. The way you do it, is to articulate the first four notes and then rip from F4 to F5, 1st to 6th positions. I'll be damned if the BIS recording doesn't have every stinking note in the scale *perfectly* in time, sounding like they were doodle tongued.

Just listened to this. Wild rip there for sure.

The technique described is often known as "playing against the grain", although a more precise description would be "playing between adjacent harmonics". This can clearly be seen on the ETSP chart [a precise graphical portrayal of Equitempered Tones (vertical scale) versus Slide Position (horizontal scale).]

The first set of four ETSP charts (for a Bb trombone without attachment) shows the "Mandrake . . ." chromatic run (from the tenth to the fourteenth harmonic) and exercises 38R, 39R, and 40R from the Watrous book. Note how all tones are played on different adjacent harmonics. [Individual harmonics are shown by heavy solid lines sloping down to the right.] Also note how whole-tone scales (played between adjacent harmonics)—dashed lines—turn around at the ninth harmonic; chromatic scales (played between adjacent harmonics)—light solid lines—turn around at the seventeenth harmonic. So "against the grain" is not correct in higher registers.

The next set of four ETSP charts shows exercises 41R, 42R, 43R, and 44R. The G# half-diminished arpeggio in 41R involves major and minor thirds between adjacent harmonics. The others involve whole-tones and semitones. Note, however, in 44R, the semitone from F#4 to G4 along the seventh harmonic! This can be avoided by using the eighth harmonic for G4, and so on up to C5 on the eleventh harmonic, as shown by the red dots.

The last set of four ETSP charts shows exercises 45R, 46R, 47, and 48R. Exercise 45R has two "problems". First, the whole-tone between B4 and C#5 skips across the eleventh harmonic—possibly causing a C5 (natural) to "click" between the B4 and C#5. Secondly, C#5 to D5 is along the twelfth harmonic. [Of course, there's nothing "wrong" with playing along harmonics, but it requires a different articulation (unless a portamento is desired).] Both of these "problems" are avoided by playing the C#5 on the eleventh harmonic, as shown.

Finally, exercises 46R, 47, and 48R, taken together, represent a good example of "fretting".

Playing "against the grain" is good pedagogy for
(i) legato articulation,
(ii) slide-position precision,
(iii) range building,
(iv) use of outer (alternate) positions.

The following shows some exercises building up to the well-known "trick" of playing a Bb major scale entirely against the grain, from Bb3 on the fourth harmonic up to Bb4 on the eleventh harmonic—and then back down again. The same exercises are shown in the ETSP charts. Also a D major scale played against the grain.

The (unadorned) slide-position numbers above the written notes refer to the nearest reference positions (i.e. the positions of the first, second, fourth, eighth, . . . , harmonics). These are labels—not "prescriptions" for "finding" the positions (such as "#2", "b4", &c.). The latter are imprecise, at best; and can be confusing. The correct positions should be "found" (and committed to muscle memory) by ear. Note that the eleventh harmonic lies almost exactly half-way between reference positions, slightly closer (by 2.6¢) to the longer reference position.

Start at a slow tempo (but with quick movement between slide positions, using a combination of wrist and forearm). Double-check intonation (and adjust slide-position accordingly)! Do not tongue any notes—just an even air flow. Gradually build-up the tempo on each partial phrase.

Invent lots of other "against-the-grain" (i.e. between-adjacent-harmonics) scales and arpeggios by referring to the ETSP chart.

Of course, there are a multitude of other between-adjacent-harmonics possibilities in lower registers when using single- and dual-valve attachments. Also made very clear on respective ETSP charts.

Best use of this ever came to me from an old timer I was playing with…. He said “follow me” and he walked us over to a couple of high school bands that were milling about before some summer parade (fourth of July maybe?). As we (and they) were bored waiting to even line up, he got a group of them together and asked them how much they would bet that either of us trombone players could play a Bb scale faster than their choice of clarinet or flute players. After egging them on for a bit and getting them to come up with a stupid high number (and me not knowing what the heck he was talking about). Had them put forward their fastest fingers to play a scale…

Then he ripped off one of these… when they didn’t believe him he said: fine, we can slow it down for you… pointed at me and had me go through it slowly a couple of times until they got it.. I was also needing to learn this for him to win his bet, but this was his teaching style. I’m glad I had pretty good flexibility in those days.

Got a good laugh out of the kids and made them feel uncomfortable that we would hold them to the bet (we didn’t).

Cheers,
Andy

I apologise for misinterpreting the description of the against-the-grain "chromatic rip" in the Mandrake in the Corner concerto. As shown in the ETSP chart on the left, below, the phrase is in two parts: first a chromatic run from Db4 up to F4, lightly tongued along the sixth harmonic (blue circles connected by pink line); then the against-the-grain rip from F4 in 1st position up to F5 in 6th position, from the sixth harmonic, hitting all intermediate harmonics up to the sixteenth (black dots connected by blue line). Note whole-tones: F4 to G4 to A4; semitones thereafter. Realistically, the locus of tones in the rip probably looks more like that shown by the black dots in the right-hand ETSP chart—involving a few non-equitempered tones before "locking in" to the in-tune (and in-time) chromatic run from Db5 in 5th position, on the twelfth harmonic, on up to F5. Note that the final portion, Db5-->F5, standing alone, could also be played from the tenth to the fourteenth harmonic (as previously mentioned); or from the eleventh to the fifteenth; or from the thirteenth to the seventeenth—as shown by the red dots. [A combination of fretting and slotting up one or more harmonics.]

For beginning (and intermediate) students, lip-slurred against-the-grain chromatic runs (following portions of the sets of light lines in the ETSP chart) are excellent exercises for range development, lip-slur control and intonation precision. For example, start on D4 in 1st position (fifth harmonic); then, at a slow tempo (but quick slide movement), lip-slur to Eb4 in 3rd position, and so on up to F#4 in 7th position (ninth harmonic). [Maybe toggle (slow-trill) between any two tones along the way.] Then down again with the same articulation. Check intonation on each equitempered tone! Gradually increase the tempo (in duple time)—always precisely hitting each harmonic in between. Up and down, until it flows easily—in tune and in time.

Now move up a "rung": E4 in 2nd position (sixth harmonic) up to G# in 7th position (tenth harmonic). Same procedure (also in duple time), until it runs smoothly, up and down, hitting all harmonics in between—in tune and in time.

Now move up to start on F4 in 1st position (sixth harmonic), first (in duple time) up to A4 in 6th position (tenth harmonic), and back down. Then try F4 (in triple time) up to B4 in 7th position (twelfth harmonic), and back down. Diaphragm support.

When these against-the-grain chromatic runs (in tune and in time) are "second nature", gradually work further up the "rungs" of the "minor-seconds-between adjacent-harmonics" "curves" shown in the ETSP chart. [You may be surprised how your upper range improves. But don't push it too fast!]

Now go back and do the same kind of exercises with "major-seconds-between-adjacent-harmonics" "curves"—i.e. portions of whole-tone runs—shown in the ETSP chart by dashed lines. Note that the direction changes at the ninth harmonic.

Now try "minor-thirds-between-adjacent-harmonics"—diminished-seventh arpeggios (not shown on these ETSP charts). These are really good exercises for lip-slur control and pitch accuracy! They will require more diaphragm support and throat/tongue (mouth-cavity volume) control: "AH - EH - EE - EH - AH", &c.

PS When you can nail the "Mandrake rip" (and hold the F5—on any one of the six available positions, i.e. on harmonics twelve through seventeen), you're ready for Beethoven's fifth (and ninth). But please play these on alto!

. . .

Playing against the grain might be "flashy" and "showoff" in some circumstances, but it's one of the most useful tools for playing quickly on the trombone, and can be used with just three notes or many notes, and in any register. It can be mixed with traditional tonguing and slurring. And it can be done upward, downward, or both in the same phrase. It's particularly useful in the upper register where the partials are so close. If you're thinking of it as a flashy showoff technique, you're not hearing it done the way most trombonists use it. We use it all the time. As Andy alluded to, it lets us keep up with the woodwind players.

Yes, as tbdana points out, most experienced players make use of "against-the-grain" (i.e. between-adjacent-harmonics) articulation much of the time, particularly for short scalar passages involving major seconds—dashed lines in the ETSP Chart, below. The minor-seconds are more often played along the respective harmonic, but can also be played between adjacent harmonics (light full lines) in the higher register, depending on which choice allows for smoother slide motion. For this reason, it's important to have a "mental picture" of where ALL available equitempered tones lie along the various harmonics—and the relationships between them. One such picture is the ETSP Chart. This kind of visualisation is not available from conventional "slide-position charts" involving staff notation.

Unfortunately, many beginning students are taught to use only shortest possible positions (boundary of the orange shading). Avoiding outer ("alternate") positions often results in very awkward slide motion and may cause an unintended portamento when trying to play larger intervals along a single harmonic in a legato style. Of course, students soon learn where the seven reference positions lie (first, second, fourth, eighth, sixteenth harmonics); and that equitempered tones along the third, sixth and twelfth harmonics require very slightly longer positions (and along the ninth, even longer); and that those along the fifth, tenth and fifteenth harmonics require some shortening (or embouchure sharpening with the slide closed). And that equitempered tones along the seventh and fourteenth harmonics lie about a third of a slide-position increment shorter than the nearest reference position. With experience they will find that equitempered tones along the eleventh harmonic are almost exactly half-way between reference positions (a few cents closer to the longer reference position). And those along the thirteenth harmonic lie about two-fifths of a slide-position increment longer than the nearest reference position. All these nuances are immediately visualised in the ETSP Chart.

Trombonjon wrote: ↑Mon May 01, 2023 11:20 pm "Fretting" aka playing against the grain does require a good deal of woodshedding for sure. Not only require flexibility, but also solid knowledge of your alternate positions. There are at least two books that address this technique that I can think of: one is by Greg Waits and the other by David Baker. Both are available from Hickey's Online. Hope this helps.

Thanks for the mention

Just to firm up some terminology, to "lip slur up while your slide goes out" (or vice versa)—i.e. usually between adjacent harmonics, instead of articulating along a single harmonic—sometimes known as playing "against the grain" is not what is meant by "fretting". Any phrase (of any length) that can be played without using all seven positions can be "fretted" to a different set of positions, using the same relative positions. Obviously, the narrower the spread of positions, the further the phrase can be fretted. If the phrase is repeated while being transposed (up or down) chromatically, this is sometimes known as "planing".

Then there is the controversy surrounding the terms "primary" and "alternate" positions. The former is used to indicate shortest possible positions when (alternate) outer positions are also available. But there is nothing "secondary" about the outer-position tones. They may have a slightly different tone-colour (harmonic structure) and perhaps a different "feel" (feedback) to the player—but the nuance in tone quality is usually not perceptible to the listener. They are all just different available positions, and should be treated equally, depending on desired articulation and slide technique.

On a Bb trombone (without attachment), E3, F3, Ab3–Db4, and Eb4 each have two available positions. D4 and E4–A4 have three. From Bb4 on up there are (at least) four available positions. D5, Eb5 and E5 have five. F5 has six. [Immediately seen at a glance—in the "white" (unshaded) regions of the ETSP Chart, by the way!]

Returning to the "Mandrake rip" for the moment, the score shows the chromatic run in triplets over an octave from F4 to F5, i.e. thirteen notes in all (see below). If played "against the grain" in a single sweep from F4 in first position to F5 in sixth (as seen in available videos), there is a problem because there are only eleven separate harmonics available. So either two notes have to be omitted, like the Gb4 and A4 as shown in ETSP #1, with the chromatic portion beginning at Bb4 in third position; or a few extra notes have to be ghosted in (e.g. in between F4 and Ab4, and between Ab4 and B4) as shown in #2. The latter seems to be the preferred technique. [Green lines indicate along a single harmonic; pink lines between adjacent harmonics.]

But precise articulation of the first two triplets in measure 42 can be achieved in a number of ways. In ETSP #3, a short couple of fast slide "wiggles" using primary positions allows a longer against-the-grain sweep to begin on A4 in second position on the eighth harmonic up to F5 on the sixteenth. ETSP #4 shows the F4 played in fourth position with the first triplet articulated along the seventh harmonic, with the same sweep from A4 to F5. ETSP #5 shows the first triplet articulated along the seventh harmonic and the second triplet articulated along the eighth; in this case, the sweep is from Bb4 in first position up to F5 in fifth position—on the fifteenth harmonic. ETSP #6 shows the first triplet played against the grain and the second triplet played further out along the ninth harmonic, with the upper sweep starting at Bb4 in third position. Finally, #7 again has F4 in fourth position with the first triplet articulated along the seventh harmonic, but now we have a long sweep from G4 in second position on the seventh harmonic all the way out to F5 in seventh position on the seventeenth harmonic.

Harking back to the original post—how to perform long against-the-grain runs without sounding like a drunken elephant—since these are just a series of lip slurs between adjacent harmonics, it's important to develop this technique over a small range before trying long runs. In addition to standard drills such as Remington warm-ups (and variations such as suggested by Anders Larson: Flexibility "against the grain"), work on tremolos of fourths and major and minor thirds and (slow) "trills" of major and minor seconds using tones from (any) two different adjacent harmonics not more than two position increments apart, in both duple and triple time. Then "plane" up or down chromatically as far as the slide will allow. Then combine some of these using three adjacent harmonics. Do not tongue any notes. Use appropriate mouth-cavity "vowels" (aw, ah, oo, eh, ee) and synchronised diaphragm support. Then four adjacent harmonics, and so on. Scales and arpeggios. The arpeggios will not necessarily be totally against the grain. No "along-a-single-harmonic" articulations allowed!

My favourite short (lip-slur) warm-up was given to me by my first teacher, Geoff ("Dutchy") Turner, who was at that time (1950) the principal trombone of the Melbourne ABC studio orchestra. See below: use "light swing" rhythm. Do not tongue any notes. Single breath on each line. Be careful to "skip over" and not accidentally "catch" the seventh harmonics between the sixth and eighth harmonics in the latter part of the warm-up; diaphragm support is essential here.

Wow, Sesquitone looks like he's preparing a research paper or something.

To throw a wrinkle into the mix: I'm also a fan of "with the grain" slurring. Just as with any legato technique: keep the slide snappy, expressive, foundational airflow, etc.

Sometimes, to make some kinds of licks easier to play consistently, I'll deliberately do this to reduce the # of partials a particular slur has to go through. For example, a typical Eb4-Bb3 slur can be easier to "clean" by going from 3rd position to 5th instead of 3rd to 1st.

No "research paper"; just some hints for legato articulation using lip slurs and "alternate" positions.
Informed by the ETSP Chart! [I already have a "research paper" on that. If anyone would like a free copy, please send me a convenient postal address via email: [email protected]. (And, yes, it involves some fun high-school-level mathematics. Just like music, as Monk says). ]

And thanks for that alternate Bb3 example. In the ETSP Chart, below, I've shown two ways to play an Eb major triad between Eb3 and Eb4. Playing the Bb3 in fifth position involves playing between adjacent harmonics everywhere (straight pink lines). With Bb3 played in first position, this requires:
(i) "snappy slide" articulation along the fourth harmonic (green line), and
(ii) skipping over the fifth harmonic in order to avoid inadvertently "catching" an unwanted Db.
There's nothing "wrong" with (i) or (ii); but lip-slurs between adjacent harmonics make the articulation a bit "cleaner".

And, of course, by using fretting, the (between-adjacent-harmonics) Eb triad can be planed up to E and F, and planed down to D and C#, using the same relative slide positions.

Sesquitone, this is great stuff - thanks!

I forgot to include the most "logical" articulation—in terms of smooth slide technique. Sorry about that.
See below.

First, play the simplified example using the positions indicated in order to fix the positions for the F diminished-seventh tetrad. Note that the D5 is played on the thirteenth harmonic, about four-tenths of a reference position-increment beyond fifth position.

The chromatic run is played in a single breath, using three sets of "against-the-grain" articulation, as noted (pink lines); the dots over the straight lines indicate that all the intermediate harmonics are to be sounded (without being tongued). A slight emphasis on Ab4 and B4, and a strong emphasis on F5 is appropriate. By placing the D5 on the last eighth-note beat (as in the simplified example), everything falls neatly into place, with exact triplet timing.