TromboneChat

While it's obvious that some brands like schiller or allora aren't as good as the average yamaha or bach, could they be good horns for being on a sharp budget?

Example is the Mack Brass Bass trombone. I've seen some posts about people here who own them and say they play pretty well, and don't break the bank at like 1500USD. But also saving another 2 grand could get you a used eastman, shires, bach or any other big-name brand.

Are those *to my understanding* Chinese horns like Mack, Dillion and alorra truly bad enough to not even be worth thr price point unless you're a school/beginner?

Ranty question sorry

Edit:Another brand I question is Thomann. No knowledge on them really besides the website

You can find a good instrument for around $2000 if you wait and watch the market constantly, it might take a couple months. There’s a Holton 180 on this site right now that is being sold for a bargain. If you want a good, quality instrument, don’t buy a JinBao.

Used horns can be a better option, especially when it comes to repair and resale value. I've bought some Chinese stuff when I didn't know the used market well enough (euphs and tuba). But as long as you're looking at shiny new stuff, remember Xo, JP, Carol Brass, lower line of BAC. Also, you have to look at the return and repair policy. Schiller has a pretty bad return policy, so you better like whatever you buy from them. Thomann is German, but I think they're doing more in the US now, people seem pleased with most of their stuff. You can go to Mack's warehouse and try horns. That's the best way to go.

hyperbolica wrote: ↑Mon Apr 24, 2023 6:35 pm Used horns can be a better option, especially when it comes to repair and resale value. I've bought some Chinese stuff when I didn't know the used market well enough (euphs and tuba). But as long as you're looking at shiny new stuff, remember Xo, JP, Carol Brass, lower line of BAC. Also, you have to look at the return and repair policy. Schiller has a pretty bad return policy, so you better like whatever you buy from them. Thomann is German, but I think they're doing more in the US now, people seem pleased with most of their stuff. You can go to Mack's warehouse and try horns. That's the best way to go.

What about sierman(?)? I remember hearing things about them being good clones of other instruments, at the cost of, being a clone. Their higher model I've are pretty good and some beat what they copy. But also they are a chinese brand?

Getzen is probably the current best value for the dollar for new.

Kneesks wrote: ↑Mon Apr 24, 2023 6:52 pm

hyperbolica wrote: ↑Mon Apr 24, 2023 6:35 pm Used horns can be a better option, especially when it comes to repair and resale value. I've bought some Chinese stuff when I didn't know the used market well enough (euphs and tuba). But as long as you're looking at shiny new stuff, remember Xo, JP, Carol Brass, lower line of BAC. Also, you have to look at the return and repair policy. Schiller has a pretty bad return policy, so you better like whatever you buy from them. Thomann is German, but I think they're doing more in the US now, people seem pleased with most of their stuff. You can go to Mack's warehouse and try horns. That's the best way to go.

What about sierman(?)? I remember hearing things about them being good clones of other instruments, at the cost of, being a clone. Their higher model I've are pretty good and some beat what they copy. But also they are a chinese brand?

As the U.S.A. market is dwindling, I would stay away from most if not all Chinese horns, I heard they break easily, even the Shires ones are not up to par with the ones put together here. Didn't Sierman take pictures of Greg Black's mouthpieces only to copy them one year? It's your money, but I would be tired of going to a repair person. There are alot that can go wrong with a trombone.

Kneesks wrote: ↑Mon Apr 24, 2023 6:16 pm Are those *to my understanding* Chinese horns like Mack, Dillion and alorra truly bad enough to not even be worth thr price point unless you're a school/beginner?

Keep in mind that nothing can be more discouraging to a beginner than a poorly designed or built instrument.

Used pro-quality horns are usually the best value, largely because you are more likely to be able to resell them later and recoup most of your original purchase price. I've bought, used, and subsequently sold several Bach, Conn, and Yamaha trombones at approximately zero net cost to me. After I bought a Wessex (essentially same as Mack) euphonium brand new and used it gently for a couple years, it had lost a significant chunk of its initial value by the time I chose to sell it onward.

Elow mentioned my Holton bass for sale. It's a good player.

I think there are some situations, where such an instrument can make sense.

That could be if it's a real novelty/very rare instrument such as an ophicleide or this French C tuba (euphonium) that Wessex is selling.

Or an instrument where a high quality option is just extremely expensive, used instruments not available in comparable price and/or quality and it's more or less a niche instrument (e g contrabass trombone or bass trumpet).

I think with euphoniums the issue is that the high quality options like Besson, Wilson, Miraphone, Yamaha etc are so ridiculously expensive that a well playing instrument for a fraction of the price is interesting for the mass market

Kneesks wrote: ↑Mon Apr 24, 2023 6:52 pm
What about sierman(?)?...

You're obsessed with the bottom of the barrel. While you haven't said what you're going to use the horn for, I'm guessing you're a student or students parent.

Get a decent used horn. Yamaha, King, Conn, Bach, Olds, Benge, etc. Don't buy Allora, Sierman, anything from India. Anything that's new and of decent quality is going to be more than you want to spend. If it's new and cheap, you can just about guarantee its also junk.

Especially if you are looking for a bass trombone, they're more complex and a lot can go wrong with them. If you watch, you can find used good quality double valve bass bones for $1000-1500, or single valves for under $1000.

Bass bones as we know them now started gaining popularity in the 60s and 70s, but tenors from 100 years ago are still plentiful and usable. That and the complexity difference are why basses are harder to find and more expensive when you do find them.

With Chinese instruments, there are 2 important things to look out for.

1. The brand on the bell. Buy from a retailer that does quality control (Mack Brass or Wessex) or one with a great return policy/customer support (Thomann)...places like Jim Laabs (Schiller) offer neither of those things and should be avoided.

2. The specific model. Chinese clones are not created equal, to put it mildly. Some are amazing, some are ok, and some are only worth using as a lamp. Which one is which depends on a) whether or not you get a good one (which you can take out of the equation with the right shop as mentioned above) and b) whether or not that model is well-designed to begin with.

The time to buy a new Chinese instrument instead of a used horn from an established brand is when the Chinese instrument is a good one and costs significantly less than what good used horns of that type are going for. The Mack Brass bass is listed on their website at $1149, and nowadays it's hard to find a good used double valve bass trombone (especially independent) for less than $1500. So the Mack would be a decent buy, but if your budget for a 2-valve bass is that or less, I would instead recommend waiting for a USED Mack Brass bass. They show up from time to time for $800 or less, so unlike a new one you can get back what you paid for it if you decide to sell it later.

In my experience, the best time to go with a cheaper, new instrument over a used professional instrument is either when 1) the value you'll get out of the instrument is close to $0 and/or 2) when the cost of a used pro instrument is still substantially more expensive.

For example, altos are still useful to get because of #1 and #2; a good Conn or Yamaha alto still costs ~$2k but the JinBao w/ an improved leadpipe is still ~$500-700. Typically, if you're just starting on alto you are also not making much, if any, money off of it.

Euphoniums are also good for similar reasons, though I'd argue a used YEP321 is better than a JinBao... however, they aren't compensating. So if you really want a compensator, they're still much less than a used euph.

You can make an argument for sacbuts too... though their authenticity is erm... debatable, from lower tier manufacturers.

For bass trombones, tenor trombones, trumpets, and french horns I'd argue that you can get good, used pro instruments for around the same ball park as the lower tier manufacturers, so I don't think they're typically worth it.

Tuba is marginal. If you're a good tubist, you may be able to make money off of it and there are some decent ones in the same ballpark as the lower tier manuactuers but I admittedly know little about the market and I've only ever owned, briefly, a tuba myself.

Finetales wrote: ↑Tue Apr 25, 2023 8:55 am So the Mack would be a decent buy, but if your budget for a 2-valve bass is that or less, I would instead recommend waiting for a USED Mack Brass bass. They show up from time to time for $800 or less, so unlike a new one you can get back what you paid for it if you decide to sell it later.

This is a reasonable suggestion I would say for someone on a super low budget. I bought (and re-sold) a used indie Wessex dual valve bass for around that price.

I kept a used dependent Yamaha horn over the Wessex, sound and slide trumped the convenience of indie for me but it was a close call. The Wessex wasn’t bad as such and was about half the cost of the Yamaha, can’t really complain for the price.

I would recommend having a tech look over any used horn before purchasing, if possible. It might be tricky for someone to find parts for (and work on?) a cheap Chinese horn.

You can find many used horns at a good price. The TR 158 is an awesome horn as is a Benge 190F. These are usually great value trombones when you can find them in good condition.

If a student is interested in a new horn there are some wonderful options (and some lousy ones which I won't mention).

For a great playing not-made-in-China trombone at a very good price the Adams Sonic trombone is probably tops. Handmade bell and all of the other parts are machine made in the Adams factory. Nothing is outsourced.

Now...the horns made in Asian countries:

There are multiple different manufacturing sites (and they are not all equal) which play into the quality of the instrument. And, of course, what does someone do with the horn (is it straight off the boat to you or is there quality control and making sure the trombones are in their best playing condition before arriving to you). I always feel like the rotors are the biggest different on these horns. The other thing is that the mouthpieces always need to be upgraded because they are cheap. These are my top 3 made overseas trombones.

1) Manchester Brass TB01 with red brass bell. .547 trombones. Just a way better horn than you would expect. It feels good to play and does not feel cheap. The slide is good. The horn is well balanced. The sound is good. The rotor feels sturdy and moves freely.

2) John Packer JP Rath 231 and 331. Both of these are .525 bore trombones. The leadpipe designed by Rath makes a huge difference in how these horns play. I am very impressed by these.

3) Austin Custom Brass Orchestral Trombones. Ok, yes, I work here. So am I biased? Yes, because I helped pick these out. We had 5 demo models come in and after trying them all out multiple times I selected the two we carry (one is open wrap and one is closed wrap). We inspect every horn when it comes in and before it goes out. They play very well, actually think they play far better than what the price would imply (because we priced them to be fair - we know what they are, they are clones, but they are good clones).

There is a difference between cheap and not expensive. For some people as much as they would like to have an Edwards, Shires, Getzen Custom Reserve or many other great trombones the budget just does not allow for it and they do not want used. If I had to play any of these horns listed above I would feel comfortable doing so.

I `ve heard good things about Wessex and Mack Brass (mostly Saxes).
I remember the Day when Yamaha was a crappy brand. Jupiter was junk
Things change - companies that have a hunger to survive, change.