TromboneChat

I want to solve this mystery!

I have a 1978 Bach 16M and a 2020 Bach 16. The bells are supposed to be identical, right? I had my repair guy examine them, and he found them nearly identical. He measured them and found that at the neck they have the same .509 bore, though they are slightly different at the tuning slide where the outer tuning slide bore on one is .533 and on the other it is .538. That's only 5/1000s of an inch; so close they should play identically.

In the photo, my 16 is on the left and my 16M is in the middle. Identical, right? (The right is a silver Lindberg 88H, not at issue here.)



For some reason, the bell for the old 16M plays much more open and free than the newer 16 bell. It's a pretty obvious and dramatic difference, and I can't account for why that may be. I get that bells might have different tonal qualities, but it's not just the sound, it's the air stream. Much less resistance, much freer playing on the older 16M bell. The old bell blows completely free and open; the new bell feels like it's blowing back at me.

Anyone know if there are any differences between the 1978 and 2020 bells that would account for that?

Not a mystery. Nothing really plays the same.

Most likely? Assembly tension on the newer bell section, which can feel even more obvious and constricting than, say, adding a counterweight.

FWIW the .533/8 numbers can't be right - neither leg of a 16 TS is near that. Possibly .733/8 on the large leg IDs, but I get your point. Did your tech check for solder obstruction and leaks while measuring?

Also, watch a video of someone making a one-piece bell, and make a note of any process elements that might lead to variation. I'll give you a hint - it's all of them

Anything handmade is non-repeatable.

Some years ago I watched a video about french horn players, and how they choose their instruments. It was weird - sitting in a shop with 20 or 30 "identical" instruments, they would try each one until they found the "right"one! Of course, the instruments should have all been the same! As @ithinknot says, the process elements may vary.

Because they're not identical. Especially a '78 bell compared to a 2020 - it was certainly not the same worker building both bells, and I wouldn't be surprised if the general techniques around bell manufacture at the Bach plant were different after the 2006 strike, when almost the entire workforce was replaced at once. Wouldn't even have clear continuity in training for the craftspeople involved.

I bet the joints are stressed on the newer one. If you were to measure the distance between the tuning slide tubes at both ends, you would probably find they are not parallel. Also, the thickness of the metal in the bell tends to be considerably different in different decades of production.

James wrote: ↑Fri Apr 21, 2023 1:43 pm Some years ago I watched a video about french horn players, and how they choose their instruments. It was weird - sitting in a shop with 20 or 30 "identical" instruments, they would try each one until they found the "right"one! Of course, the instruments should have all been the same! As @ithinknot says, the process elements may vary.

There's a story about a student going to the famous french horn master and asking for help finding that one horn that was perfect for her. I thought it was on Sarah Willis's site but I couldn't find it.

Anyway, the master walks down the aisle full of french horns, grabs one at random, and hands it to her. She says how do you know, you haven't even heard my playing yet? He says this one will be right for you, when your playing learns to fit it.

The 16M does in fact have a bigger neckpipe than a 16.

And guess what, .005 is not a small difference.

You don't say if both bells were play tested using the same slide, then the other slide.
That would be necessary to eliminate the slides as creating the difference.
Bells vary, and leadpipes vary.

Burgerbob wrote: ↑Fri Apr 21, 2023 1:38 pm Anything handmade is non-repeatable.

Exactly! The bells are hand-hammered and annealed repeatedly prior to being spun. Even if two bells were struck with a hammer the exact same number of times, there is no way to control that the hammer strikes the bells in the same exact locations. Also….when annealing (also done by hand by many instrument makers), the bells are moved constantly and no two bells could have the same amount of heat applied to the exact same locations for the exact same amount of time.

The handcrafting of our instruments is what makes them so unique. I hope that brass instruments are never made by complete automation.

Doug Elliott wrote: ↑Fri Apr 21, 2023 2:28 pm The 16M does in fact have a bigger neckpipe than a 16.

Though 1978 might be a bit early for the neckpipe change. The other confusing thing is:

tbdana wrote: ↑Fri Apr 21, 2023 9:53 am I had my repair guy examine them, and he found them nearly identical. He measured them and found that at the neck they have the same .509 bore

... but the non-M neckpipe that you'd expect on a 16 (or 8, or 12) begins around .490 ...

Nothing is identical.

Nothing.

spencercarran wrote: ↑Fri Apr 21, 2023 1:57 pm Because they're not identical. Especially a '78 bell compared to a 2020 - it was certainly not the same worker building both bells, and I wouldn't be surprised if the general techniques around bell manufacture at the Bach plant were different after the 2006 strike, when almost the entire workforce was replaced at once. Wouldn't even have clear continuity in training for the craftspeople involved.

Just because the Union was removed does not mean that the workers were replaced. Nearly every worker that I met at the plant in 2018 or so worked there before the strike. The ones that had not were not replacements, they entered the workforce after that time.

Cheers,
Andy

The discussion here gets at the reason it's so difficult to say "doing this change to the horn does this". Also why it is so difficult to do comparison experiments. To do a fair comparison for the effect of any component you need to keep all else the same. Here are two nominally identical instruments that have big differences in play.

I once tried six Yamaha YSL 695 and they all played different.

Trombonic wrote: ↑Sat Apr 22, 2023 2:02 am I once tried six Yamaha YSL 695 and they all played different.

Nothing is really identical, is it?

And then there's the other factor. I played the same Bach 42B on six different days, and I played all days different.

BGuttman wrote: ↑Fri Apr 21, 2023 5:57 pm The discussion here gets at the reason it's so difficult to say "doing this change to the horn does this". Also why it is so difficult to do comparison experiments. To do a fair comparison for the effect of any component you need to keep all else the same. Here are two nominally identical instruments that have big differences in play.

I do believe that there is one thing that is certain. The vast majority (I cannot put a percentage on it) come from the factory with some type of tension or misalignment in them.

Of this, I am am almost certain…..If you take an instrument that is built with tension or slides/tuning slides that are misaligned and rebuild it with no tension and absolutely parallel slides, it WILL play better.

Crazy4Tbone86 wrote: ↑Sat Apr 22, 2023 11:33 am I do believe that there is one thing that is certain. The vast majority (I cannot put a percentage on it) come from the factory with some type of tension or misalignment in them.

Of this, I am am almost certain…..If you take an instrument that is built with tension or slides/tuning slides that are misaligned and rebuild it with no tension and absolutely parallel slides, it WILL play better.

I'm very convinced that the sound perceived by the player (behind the bell) will change if there's a bunch of stress/tension built in. I'm not so sure that the sound out front will change as much. Perhaps the original poster could record both bells and upload the recordings. I'd be interested if we could hear the difference in a blind comparison test. And as noted above - use the same slide for both bells.

Agreed! The first thing I notice when I play a horn that I have rebuilt with no stress is the ease of how it plays. The horn becomes more efficient and responsive.

If you get a REALLY good horn with no stress in it, the horn has almost a mystical quality to it. It is a unique thing that is hard to describe. A musician friend of mine described it this way……”I can almost feel the horn vibrating the pitch before I breathe and play it.”

blap73 wrote: ↑Sun Apr 23, 2023 6:35 pm I'm very convinced that the sound perceived by the player (behind the bell) will change if there's a bunch of stress/tension built in. I'm not so sure that the sound out front will change as much. Perhaps the original poster could record both bells and upload the recordings. I'd be interested if we could hear the difference in a blind comparison test. And as noted above - use the same slide for both bells.

The bells definitely sound different, but that's not really what I was asking about. They sound different mainly because the bell on the newer one is thicker than on the one from 1978. (Someone re-lacquered the old bell, and must have taken off some of the metal, or something.)

But my big question was why they FEEL so different. The 1978 bell blows very free. The 2020 bell feels like it is blowing back at me. And yet they are the same bell with the same bores and measurements. I don't understand why the newer one has such back-pressure compared to the older one. I really wish that the newer one blew as free, because I like its sound better. Not as bright as the old one that has been re-lacquered.

I frankly don't know or understand the concept of "stress/tension built in" to the bell, but my assumption is that any two pieces of metal tubing of the same measurements will have the same amount of air resistance. But these bells do not. Even just blowing air through them they are different.

I'm learning some things in this thread, so thanks to everyone who has contributed so far. Perhaps what I need to do is to sell both axes and go to a store that has 20 16Ms and play them all to find the one I really like. But I have a bias for older horns, and what I'd really like to do is find a used one that I love. The problem is that you can't go somewhere to play 20 used 16Ms.

blap73 wrote: ↑Sun Apr 23, 2023 6:35 pm
But my big question was why they FEEL so different. The 1978 bell blows very free. The 2020 bell feels like it is blowing back at me.

Is this a dual bore 16 VS a sIngle bore 16M?

pbone3b wrote: ↑Mon May 01, 2023 11:39 am Is this a dual bore 16 VS a sIngle bore 16M?

Yes, but the dual bore is only the slide. The bells for the 16 and the 16M are [supposed to be] exactly the same. Indeed, back when my 1978 horn was made, they didn't even stamp the "M" on the bells, they all just said "16."

tbdana wrote: ↑Mon May 01, 2023 10:23 am I frankly don't know or understand the concept of "stress/tension built in" to the bell

It's not "built into the bell", it's built into the whole bell section based on the alignment (or rather misalignment) of parts. The tuning slide bow may have been forced open or closed by the bracing span, the legs aren't parallel and flat, the receivers those legs go into aren't parallel either, the curve of the neckpipe doesn't exactly correspond to the angles established by the bell bracing - both sides of which may have been soldered under compression, or laterally misaligned, etc etc.

All of those things influence how it plays, but not how it behaves as plumbing, which leads us to...

tbdana wrote: ↑Mon May 01, 2023 10:23 am my assumption is that any two pieces of metal tubing of the same measurements will have the same amount of air resistance. But these bells do not. Even just blowing air through them they are different.

What you feel as playing "resistance" is a product of many factors, a lot of which aren't fluid dynamics. That's why you can have an "open-playing" small horn, or a "stuffy" bass... it's never a pure question of Fire Hose Diameter.

When you blow through it you're feeling fluid dynamics. When you play, you're feeling acoustical resistance. Two different things.

1978 was around the time when Bach was experimenting with the neckpipe on 16 vs 16M, and I don't think the design was settled yet. They are most likely NOT the same.

Doug Elliott wrote: ↑Mon May 01, 2023 1:00 pm 1978 was around the time when Bach was experimenting with the neckpipe on 16 vs 16M, and I don't think the design was settled yet. They are most likely NOT the same.

Thanks, Doug.
Always something new to learn here.
I went and measured some neckpipes, expecting that they were tubing of constant diameter.
Wrong I was !!
Similar to slide leadpipes, the neckpipe diameters vary along the length of the tube.
It's easy to understand that the shape of that short section of tubing can alter the sound wave.
Measurements of the subject horns have already shown that the neckpipes are are different.

Before there were modular instruments with removable leadpipes and detachable bells, it used to be a common thing to go to a large music store and switch bells and slides of several horns of the same model to try to find the best combination for you. I did that as a young high school player to pick out my first 88H.
There are subtle differences between different slides and bells, even if they are actually identical models. I think that modern manufacturing techniques have made components more consistent, but not identical.

Jim Scott

I think its also to do with which day they are made, for example perhaps Monday and Friday bells are slightly inferior to the rest of the week for obvious reasons.......

I once spoke with Heinrich Thein (Thein Brass, Bremen) who explained me the following:

Brass Sheets are rolled and therefore they have a specific rolling direction. At Thein, they just cut their cups exactly in rolling direction and process them accordingly. They have more waste as a result, but the sound qualities of a cup made in rolling direction are much better than those made across or against the rolling direction.

So, maybe the good cup is cut in rolling direction, but the other one is not?