TromboneChat

I attended a music convention in February that gave me the opportunity to try out several bass trombones in the very large vendor display area. This is part of my effort to find a trombone that is more open than my Bach 50B3 and also to get one that is just different. What I found after trying out many horns over a two day period surprised me greatly. Below are my notes from that effort.


=== EDWARDS ===
B454-E - Independent axial valves, yellow brass bell, dual radius yellow brass tuning slide.
Thoughts: Very nice horn. Fairly open low end with the valves. Upper register feels like a different horn from the lower.

B454-VE - Independent axial valves, red brass bell, dual radius rose tuning slide, B3 silver lead pipe, dual bore hand slide.
Thoughts: One of the Edwards reps put together “the darkest horn that he could” at the request of a convention attendee. Was similar to the B454-E but seemed like the upper and lower registers were more from the same horn. I liked this horn better than the above.

B454-CR-E - Independent conventional rotary valves, red brass bell.
Thoughts: There was only one double conventional rotary horn in the display. It was a nice, solid horn.


=== SHIRES ===
TBQ36YA - Independent axial valves, 9.5” yellow brass bell, .562” yellow brass hand slide.
Thoughts: Was expecting a lesser horn given that it’s a China product. Is different, but not a lesser horn to the George Curran model.

TBQ36YR - Independent rotary valves, 9.5” yellow brass bell, .562” yellow brass hand slide.
Thoughts: Very nice. Good tone. Plays like the same horn in all registers. Not too different from my Bach 50B3.

George Curran model - Independent axial valves, 9.5” yellow brass bell, dual bore yellow brass hand slide.
Thoughts: Similar to the Shires axial listed above.

(There wasn’t another Custom Series bass trombone in their display area other than the George Curran model)


=== GREENHOE ===
GC5-3R - Independent Greenhoe rotary valves with yellow brass tubing, 10” red brass bell, rose brass hand slide.
Thoughts: I was stunned at how well this played. Low end was very open. Upper and lower registers felt vey unified. Response was very quick. Wow.


=== THEIN ===
Universal model - Independent Hagmann rotary valves, 10” screw bell, .567 bore (all yellow brass).
Thoughts: Incredibly stuffy in all registers. They had two of these. I believe the other one was red brass. Both played similarly.

Brian Hecht model - Independent axial valves, yellow brass bell.
Thoughts: Played similarly to the Edwards and Shires axial horns listed above.

Belcanto model - Independent Meinl-Schmidt Open Flow rotary valves with yellow brass tubing, 9.5” red brass screw bell.
Thoughts: OMG, OMG, and let me just add, OMG. This horn was amazing. Low end was very open and matched the upper register really well. Response was incredible. Was at another level to every other horn that I tried at the convention with the exception of the Greenhoe, which was close behind. Can’t stop thinking about it.


Went in expecting yellow brass axial horns to be the front runners, but found red brass rotaries to be my preference by a significant margin.

I do realize that my above impressions should be taken with more than a grain of salt since they were made while spending only minutes playing each horn in a crowded, noisy convention hall floor. My lip was also not in the best of shape at the time. I did have my Bach 50B3 with me and would play it in between playing the other horns for a direct comparison. I went back to the same horns, several times over that two day period trying to get as much playing time as I could and to compare specific characteristics to get as complete of a picture as possible. Was pretty worn out after each day.

My problem going forward is that almost no instrument store, if any, is going to have any of these horns in their store for me to try out. I would rather not chase conventions for the sake spending just a few more minutes trying out horns. I’d also like to try other manufacturers like Rath and M&W. The upcoming ITF might be worth it. Wish it were closer to where I live.

Olav Brandt, one of the Thein co-owners, told me that the Belcanto that I played was available for purchase at the convention. Given that I had just started my search and the Belcanto has an $11k price tag, I didn’t take that offer. I sometimes second guess myself on that.

My quest continues, although I’m not sure what direction it’s going to take.

What have some of you done that helped in selecting a new bass trombone?



Paul


Edit:
Added my thoughts for the Shires TBQ36YR that I forgot in my initial submission.
Clarified my statement regarding Shires Custom Series trombones.

Interesting!

Any idea why the Thein Universal felt so stuffy to you?

And get the Greenhoe! (I love mine )

Thanks for the write-up.

BassBoneInTX wrote: ↑Thu Apr 20, 2023 1:19 am What have some of you done that helped in selecting a new bass trombone?
Paul

My approach is: buy used, test for extended period in real-life situations, one in one out (or one in, one stashed out of the way of those who may be counting how many trombones are appearing in the house…)

Probably not a viable strategy for some of those boutique options you‘re looking at unless you have a lot of patience and trombone-buying capital.

Enjoy the search.

Could you explain more about the Shires and how you thought it played?

In the end, you save a lot of money going to a factory and getting fitted to the horn that best suites you. If you just did a trip to Chicago for instance, you could try Greenhoe, M&W, and Edwards. Swing by Windy City trombones for Bach and Shires as well.

Just a quick point, the Shires George Curran model is a Custom Series horn.

MStarke wrote: ↑Thu Apr 20, 2023 5:55 am Any idea why the Thein Universal felt so stuffy to you?

I was very surprised by this. This was the first time I had played a Hagmann horn. I went back to the Universal a few times during those two days to see if this changed. It didn't. I thought that it might have been due to my lip not being in the best of shape at the convention. All of the other horns however, played mostly as expected as well as my Bach 50B3 that I brought with me.

I'm in much better shape now, so it would be good to try those horns again to see what, if anything, changes.

Hmmm.

ZacharyThornton wrote: ↑Thu Apr 20, 2023 10:52 am In the end, you save a lot of money going to a factory and getting fitted to the horn that best suites you. If you just did a trip to Chicago for instance, you could try Greenhoe, M&W, and Edwards. Swing by Windy City trombones for Bach and Shires as well.

That's a super good suggestion. I had seen Shires promotions for this kind of thing but not the other brands. I will certainly look into that.

I have actually been planning a trip to the Chicago area in the next few weeks for another purpose and could add that to the trip.

Thank you very much.

ZacharyThornton wrote: ↑Thu Apr 20, 2023 10:52 am In the end, you save a lot of money going to a factory and getting fitted to the horn that best suites you. If you just did a trip to Chicago for instance, you could try Greenhoe, M&W, and Edwards. Swing by Windy City trombones for Bach and Shires as well.

Where in Chicago could you do that? M&W and Edwards are up in Wisconsin.

BassBoneInTX wrote: ↑Thu Apr 20, 2023 12:35 pm

ZacharyThornton wrote: ↑Thu Apr 20, 2023 10:52 am In the end, you save a lot of money going to a factory and getting fitted to the horn that best suites you. If you just did a trip to Chicago for instance, you could try Greenhoe, M&W, and Edwards. Swing by Windy City trombones for Bach and Shires as well.

That's a super good suggestion. I had seen Shires promotions for this kind of thing but not the other brands. I will certainly look into that.

I have actually been planning a trip to the Chicago area in the next few weeks for another purpose and could add that to the trip.

Thank you very much.

Edwards has also had similar fitting days at stores. Virtuosity is the most recent one that comes to mind, but that's on the east coast.

Drive from Chicago to Jackson, WI or Elkhorn, WI. Not that far away.

Pictures of the horns that I tried can be found everywhere, but here are a few of the Thein Belcanto and Greenhoe GC5 that I actually played at the convention.

The Belcanto is being held by Olav Brandt, one of the Thein co-owners, in the two photos of that horn. Max Thein is in the photo of the full Thein display area with Olav right behind him. All four of their bass trombones can be seen directly in front of the Thein banner. (Someone is playing one of the two Universals in that photo.) The contra is the horn shown to the left of the bass trombones. Didn't play it. Wished I had.

Druidman wrote: ↑Thu Apr 20, 2023 10:40 am Could you explain more about the Shires and how you thought it played?

My overall impression of the Curran model was that is was a very nice horn. It struck me, as all the other axials did, how open it was when using the valves. It also struck me how different the upper register seemed compared to the lower. It almost felt more closed than the lower. This might simply be my impression coming from my Bach 50B3 which is fairy stuffy in the lower register when using the valves. I think it slotted fairly well. I liked the sound that I was able to create with it.

I don't recall being impressed or unimpressed by any other characteristic of the horn. It also didn't seem to be much different from the Shires Q Series axial bass bone. After I played it the first time, I recall thinking that this could be worth considering for my next horn.

Every horn requires a bit of effort to make it your own. In that regard, this horn would be a good one.


Paul

I also felt immediately in love with the Thein bel canto basses at ATW this year. I wonder if they were the same horns. The one with independent rotors and cut yellow brass bell responded and sounded heavenly in all registers at all dynamics. Simply a superlative masterpiece!
It had already sold when I tried it, unfortunately.
If the owner ever reads this and wants to sell, please contact me!
FWIW, I’ve owned a Thein Universal bass with cut red brass bell & progressive hagmanns that was absolutely excellent and very musically satisfying, but I still prefer that newer Bel Canto model. I used to use a press-fit MK50XL pipe in it with great results.

MrHCinDE wrote: ↑Thu Apr 20, 2023 10:39 am Thanks for the write-up.

BassBoneInTX wrote: ↑Thu Apr 20, 2023 1:19 am What have some of you done that helped in selecting a new bass trombone?
Paul

My approach is: buy used, test for extended period in real-life situations, one in one out (or one in, one stashed out of the way of those who may be counting how many trombones are appearing in the house…)

Probably not a viable strategy for some of those boutique options you‘re looking at unless you have a lot of patience and trombone-buying capital.

Enjoy the search.

This is exactly the approach I use. I have about 5 to sell at this point. But really unless you can play in a spot where you can hear and can take it to a rehearsal or gig to see how it works in different environments, you really don't know if it is a good fit.

Also, ensuring no one can count all the horns in the house is critical to a happy life.

For what its worth, I play a Greenhoe bass and Edwards with Rotax valves, I have a Butler CF slide for the Edwards.


also, make sure you have a bunch of mouthpieces to try. I have found over the years the most important part of whether a horn works well is whether the mouthpiece fits the horn. It may even be more important than how the mouthpiece feels to the player, at least for me.

For example, when trying out a small horn, I have about 10 good small shank mouthpieces to try out. Eventually one works well.

The stuffy bass probably has misaligned valves. Maybe damage in shipping. It is really easy to mess up the alignment in some of the newer fancy bass valves. I recently cleaned my valves and put one back together wrong. The horn played awfully until I fixed it.

Last thing, Make sure you tighten down all the screws for removable bells and use a heavy lube like lanolin or whatever you like, on the tuning slide. I have a Rath bass trombone that I need to sell. When I first played it I was not super impressed. Then I tightened things down and lubed the tuning slides and it plays great now. Huge difference.

I think many good horns don't play like it due to a mis match between the mouthpiece and the horn. If a horn plays bad, especially a good brand, it probably needs an alignment, or lube, or different mouthpiece.