TromboneChat

Hello, I am a baritone player and I want to switch to trombone. I want to play big band. I have the problem that I have tender wrists, and with my current instrument I can only practice for 20-30 minutes. Afterwards it is no fun because my wrists start to hurt. This is especially frustrating, as I can sit my baritone on my lap and play for hours without problems. My teacher told me that this is a common problem for trombone players and it is part of the game. As this is just a hobby for me, enduring pain can not be a part of the equation for me

Tldr - to the question: Is there some common knowledge about brands or models of tenor trombones (without valve), that are especially lightweight? Money is not a constraint, I am willing to invest. I currently play a Yamaha YSL-354 (bore 12.7mm/0.500) silver plated, and it weighs 1,4 kgs (3.09 pounds). Is this considered a normal weight? Can I shed this weight considerably with a certain model?

Thank you very much for your help

I think King 2b (the Jiggs Whigham model?) and the XO small bores are said to be pretty lightweight. Carbon fiber trombones are also an option.

Some things that may be at least as important as the actual weight:
- balance in all directions (front/back and also if it pulls to the left which can potentially be influenced by the angle between bell section and slide)
- The way you are holding it and how the braces are designed can be relevant/be more or less comfortable
- also you could consider some easy aids such as the Yamaha strap

I tried an XO Fedchock model recently. Lightest horn I’ve ever played.

If money is no object, Butler carbon fiber might be an option.

Grip aids help a lot with strain relief. There are also other contraptions like the Ergobone.

I also find the "Yeo grip" to be much more comfortable on some horns than the traditional grip.

Have you considered a Pbone?

Conn100HGuy wrote: ↑Mon Apr 10, 2023 4:13 pm If money is no object, Butler carbon fiber might be an option.

Clear answer since money is not an obstacle

Butler carbon fiber for what you are describing

Jiggs 2b

Fedchock XO

Urbie Martin if you can find one

I was thinking about a butler trombone, but they are very costly to import to the EU where I live. Yes, I said that money is not an issue, but around 4.300 USD for an experimental trombone without valve is hefty.

Perhaps there are other solutions on the brass side of things?

Exercises for the weak muscles...ask a physio...eight year old girls can hold a trombone...don´t give up...

Trombonic wrote: ↑Tue Apr 11, 2023 2:01 am Exercises for the weak muscles...ask a physio...eight year old girls can hold a trombone...don´t give up...

I knew that there would be at least one of this kind of comment

I remember it to be a lot of pain too to balance the horn once I started in 1975. Then I was 12 and my muscles were weak. Unfortunately I think I used the right hand to stabilize the horn since my teacher had no clue of how to hold and play a trombone. To be able to develop a good slide technique as well as a good emboushure the weight can not be in the right hand. If you can find a more easy horn to hold it's better for many reasons. Why didn't I think of that when I was 12? It could have saved me a lot of troubles later. A p-bone is easy to hold and then there are horns with light weight slides too of course, but they are pro horns and weigh less compared to your 354 but more compared to a p-bone.

A horn with carbonfiber-slide will be yet more expensive and naturally a lot easier to hold, but in this case I think it's better value for money to chose a p-bone and later when you get stronger you could just return to the Yamaha you already own

/Tom

XO Fedchock was the first one to come to my mind - fun and responsive horns for sure. I'd love to have one of my own.

Are you using a counterweight on your current horn? It sounds counterintuitive to add one, making the horn a tad heavier. But balance is a key component to how the horn feels in your hand. Without a counter, many straight horns ( ie no F attachment) are front- heavy. That can really stress your hands. A balanced horn won't pull forward as much.

I second the Butler suggestion. The "Lemondrop" on this page weighs just 1.5 lbs:
https://butlertrombones.com/specifications-features/

Good luck!

I have rheumatoid arthritis in my hands, so holding the trombone can be painful. I play a Conn 6H, and a few years ago I almost dropped it during a concert due to the pain.
I put a NeoTech grip on, and have been playing pain free since. $30 from Amazon or Hickey’s.
Easy installation,
The YSL 354 weighs about the same as my 6H, so the NeoTech may work for you.
Might be worth $30 to check it out.

MichaelBavarian wrote: ↑Tue Apr 11, 2023 2:23 am

Trombonic wrote: ↑Tue Apr 11, 2023 2:01 am Exercises for the weak muscles...ask a physio...eight year old girls can hold a trombone...don´t give up...

I knew that there would be at least one of this kind of comment

Yes, practising and strengthen important muscles may not be a solution for some Generation Z trombone players but the only one that makes sense.

Balance can be a big factor in how "heavy" the instrument feels. Lots of folks have Yamaha 354's without the counterweight. Adding one back may make a big difference. I have a couple of Tuning in Slide instruments and without counterweights they are nearly unplayable.

Still, the 354 is built as a student horn and is made to take a lot of abuse. Think heavier. Also makes it play better for many people.

I had an older colleague who had some kind of palsy that made him constantly wobbling the horn. He wound up with the Ergobone with a harness that fits over your shoulders and he used that with a Yamaha 354. Naturally he did not need this when he was younger, but it did allow him to continue playing well into old age.

Sounds more like a wrist joint problem than a muscle problem.
Might try one of these:
https://www.google.com/search?q=wrist+b ... AhWJkokEHQ

One of the Butler small bores will likely let you play as much as you want. They play great, they sound great. In terms of ease of holding/playing with physical issues like tendinitis etc, nothing compares. Highly recommended.

A full carbon trombone is by far the best option, but if a Butler or DaCarbo (based in Switzerland) trombone is too expensive for you, you can do partial carbon fiber. For example, start with a very lightweight brass trombone (XO Fedchock, King 2B Jiggs) and then get Butler to make you a carbon fiber outer slide for it. Of course it won't be as light as a full carbon horn, but it'll still lighten the horn considerably. Then in the future if you want to spend more money, you could get Butler to make you a carbon fiber bell flare for it.

Regardless of the trombone you buy, a Neotech grip (or similar, there are quite a few different ergonomic grips for trombone) helps a lot with left hand comfort. I would consider buying one of those and trying it on your 354 first, and then take the plunge into a lightweight trombone with the use of that grip in mind.

There’s a lot of good options for lightweight horns above. I’d also include the Yamaha 891Z and 897Z.

Balance is just as important as weight. Most models have removable counterweights, which means you can buy one if you need.

There’s a lot of grip aides out there: NeoTech, Get-a-Grip, Klebsch straps (Yamaha straps are pretty much the same thing), the Bullet Brace, the Stegmann bar, and my favorite—the ErgoBone. I’m sure there are others…

MichaelBavarian wrote: ↑Mon Apr 10, 2023 1:47 pm My teacher told me that this is a common problem for trombone players and it is part of the game.

I would not agree that this is a common problem although, clearly, some have experienced this or something similar.

I would recommend that you stop playing until the pain goes away completely. Then, possibly with a lighter trombone and/or some of the other suggestions offered here, begin to play the trombone for just a few minutes per day and very gradually increase the minutes. You might find that the pain does not return.

Dear writers, thank you very much for your valuable input. I will now definitely test the XO Fedchock. I will also look into these holding gadgets. If everything fails, perhaps the Butler trombone is the way to go. Thank you for pointing me in the right direction.

SteveM wrote: ↑Tue Apr 11, 2023 8:18 pm

MichaelBavarian wrote: ↑Mon Apr 10, 2023 1:47 pm My teacher told me that this is a common problem for trombone players and it is part of the game.

I would not agree that this is a common problem although, clearly, some have experienced this or something similar.

I would recommend that you stop playing until the pain goes away completely. Then, possibly with a lighter trombone and/or some of the other suggestions offered here, begin to play the trombone for just a few minutes per day and very gradually increase the minutes. You might find that the pain does not return.

It's a common problem only for people playing much heavier trombones - double valve basses with big bells. If a 354 is too heavy, it's likely that even a carbon fiber horn will produce the same results. The work around will likely look very different. Ergobone, trombonium or a different instrument altogether.

I think you have to find and treat the cause of the problem. Holding a 354 is not the cause. Some medications cause weakness or muscle pain. Maybe you need some directed physical therapy or an xray. It sounds like you have a medical condition that needs attention rather than just working around a symptom.

I had a Fedchock, and it was pretty light. But since I have chronic problems in my left shoulder, I went the extra step and got a Butler JJ (used). It’s a great horn. The one complaint is that I find the Williams-style grip uncomfortable. Carol Brass provides a more ergonomic grip with their 2209 (.508), and it helps a lot. You could probably get an ergonomic grip for whatever horn you choose - check BAC for options. I’m considering doing that for my Butler.

The Martin Urbie Green model is very light - my favorite light horn of all time.

I used to carry an Urbie with two slides - one with a Butler carbon fiber outer. With the CF outer, it's unbelievably light and surprisingly easy & fun to play.

I may be willing to sell that combo (original inner with both CF & original outer slides) for 12 Franklins.

As written in a few other comments above, I agree on the fact that BALANCE plays a bigger role than WEIGHT, imho.

I suffer from the same problem too. Nevertheless, I hold the vocabell without pain for hours, while it is a heavier instrument than my Enders trombone. But waay better balanced. The key might be lightweight slide (carbon fiber, why not!) And rather thin bell ... A horn that is absolutely not nose-heavy.

I played a Schmelzer Model 1 for most of my undergrad and it is the lightest horn I’ve ever owned. Had an ergonomic grip too and was incredibly comfortable. I’m pretty sure Manny based the design of the Model 1 on the Williams 6. Bell and slide were both crazily independently lightweight, and the bell was also very resonant. Sometimes I regret selling it.

My current setup is almost the opposite, as it might be the heaviest .508 straight horn I’ve ever played due to the screw bell ring and the left hand slide grip. It is also however, incredibly well balanced and ergonomic so I have zero pain or discomfort while playing.

Reedman1 wrote: ↑Fri Apr 21, 2023 11:03 pm I had a Fedchock, and it was pretty light. But since I have chronic problems in my left shoulder, I went the extra step and got a Butler JJ (used). It’s a great horn. The one complaint is that I find the Williams-style grip uncomfortable. Carol Brass provides a more ergonomic grip with their 2209 (.508), and it helps a lot. You could probably get an ergonomic grip for whatever horn you choose - check BAC for options. I’m considering doing that for my Butler.

Hello Reedman, can you reiterate what you mean with the uncomfortable grip of the Butler JJ? I am heavily considering ordering one.

MichaelBavarian wrote: ↑Thu Apr 27, 2023 8:43 am uncomfortable grip of the Butler JJ?

Williams-style curved grips feel different to straight bracing, and tend to change the lateral wrist angle slightly, which in turn changes the thumb angle and extension required to reach the bell brace (which distance also varies between horns) ... it's a 'have to try it' situation.

In favor of conventional straight grips, you can always add an aftermarket curved grip aid like the Wise Grip, but you can't do the reverse.

+1 to all the comments pointing out that balance matters WAY more than absolute mass. I don't know your situation, and it may be that you need both factors to be right, but I wouldn't spend Butler money having never picked one up.

Get a strap.

I hear the Fedchock XO is incredibly light but not sure if it's balanced. It's all about the balance.

Fedchock XO horns come with a removable counter balance weight. You can easily put it on if you need the counter weight for better balance. I play mine with no weight.

MichaelBavarian wrote: ↑Thu Apr 27, 2023 8:43 am

Reedman1 wrote: ↑Fri Apr 21, 2023 11:03 pm I had a Fedchock, and it was pretty light. But since I have chronic problems in my left shoulder, I went the extra step and got a Butler JJ (used). It’s a great horn. The one complaint is that I find the Williams-style grip uncomfortable. Carol Brass provides a more ergonomic grip with their 2209 (.508), and it helps a lot. You could probably get an ergonomic grip for whatever horn you choose - check BAC for options. I’m considering doing that for my Butler.

Hello Reedman, can you reiterate what you mean with the uncomfortable grip of the Butler JJ? I am heavily considering ordering one.

The Williams grip curves concave downward near the 4th and 5th finger of the left hand, forcing the fingers to squish together into into an uncomfortable position. If you hold a camera (something I have done a lot) you may notice that the grip spreads your fingers by following the natural curve of the knuckle line - convex outward from the wrist. The BAC custom grips do something similar. I have asked Dave Butler about this, and he agrees that a convex grip would be more comfortable - but he’s already got a lot of Williams grips. I’ll admit, some people must like the Williams grip. Butler’s not the only make that has it. I just find it counter-effective.

If you tolerate the Williams grip and you like Butler overall, go for it. I’m very happy with mine, even with the Williams grip.