TromboneChat

I stopped by my local music store a few weeks back and they had some Shires Q series trombones on display. I played the axial flow valve version and immediately fell in love with its sound. The valve worked great and sounded good down low, the slide was nice, and most importantly, the instrument has a really tight core sound that held from below the bass clef staff up to the top of the treble clef. So I bought it!

I brought it home and played it quite a bit before deciding to mess with the leadpipes and that's when the story goes sideways. The leadpipe came out OK, but the spare leadpipes wouldn't fit. I figured this was either a defect or they sent me bass trombone leadpipes (caliper said .560 OD). I had ordered an MK Drawing leadpipe too, and when that arrived, I found it also did not fit!

With that evidence in hand I took it to the music store and asked the techs to take a look. They messed with it for a while and were stumped, landing on manufacturing defect. They swapped out the slide with another instrument and sent me home. Only now, the leadpipes in that slide fit sloppy, the exact opposite of the first slide. They drop right in with no friction and can wobble around in there. The MK Drawing leadpipe with friction fit is too loose to use safely.


The leadpipe fitting between those two slides is so vastly different, both wrong, it reminds me of the bad old days when corp instruments were inconsistent, leading to the advent of today's custom manufacturers, who are now shipping inconsistently machined parts, just like the folks they replaced.

The worst part is that with the replacement slide, the core of the sound I liked is gone. It's still a good trombone, but not the instrument I bought anymore. I'm torn on whether to try returning it. I knew I was taking a risk, I just had no idea the parts would vary that much in dimensions.

Has anyone else run into this kind of issue with the Shires Q series? Are loose-fitting leadpipes common/desireable?

I have the Q30YR large tenor and the Q36YR bass. Both are top notch. All of the leadpipes fit fine and snug. Everything else (tuning slide, bell sections etc.) was also interchangeable with the Shires custom/vintage parts that I bought back in 2004-2008.

Sorry to hear about your misfortune.

I’ve spoken to some friends on this recently and it seems there’s been a noticeable decrease in build quality at Shires lately- and I don’t mean just the Q series. That being said, even the older Q series horns I had were not close to the craftsmanship of my customs (which themselves weren’t at the level of Raths/Yamahas imho).

My friend owns a Q Alessi, a couple months old, one of the F tuning slide braces was built about a 1/4 inch out of alignment. The solder joint broke but since the brace was so far off it didn’t cause a buzzing noise, so there’s that.
I feel like there was much better quality a couple years back

My B62 custom slide has your problem of loose fitting leadpipes. Funnily enough, a Bach 50 pipe i ordered is too tight. One day everything will be perfect… when i own an M&W

The tight-fitting is pretty common; often needs grease to slip in (not just Q series, but Shires and other manufacturers). Being too lose might mean it's possibly .563 or .5625. The confusing part is the .560 OD. What's the M/K drawing OD measure? Having a tech take of ~.001 of material shouldn't be a huge deal.

Elow wrote: ↑Tue Apr 04, 2023 12:17 pm
Funnily enough, a Bach 50 pipe i ordered is too tight.

Those are usually not completely finished- the one I have was worked down a BUNCH to fit in any slide. (and it was worth it).

As for Shires, it sounds pretty on brand at the moment. They are shoveling horns out the door as fast as they can (which isn't to say that everyone else doesn't do the same).

What Burgerbob said...

Matt K wrote: ↑Tue Apr 04, 2023 12:19 pm The tight-fitting is pretty common; often needs grease to slip in (not just Q series, but Shires and other manufacturers). Being too lose might mean it's possibly .563 or .5625. The confusing part is the .560 OD. What's the M/K drawing OD measure? Having a tech take of ~.001 of material shouldn't be a huge deal.

Q30 is a tenor ... hence the confusion

renice wrote: ↑Tue Apr 04, 2023 11:35 am I stopped by my local music store a few weeks back and they had some Shires Q series trombones on display. I played the axial flow valve version and immediately fell in love with its sound. The valve worked great and sounded good down low, the slide was nice, and most importantly, the instrument has a really tight core sound that held from below the bass clef staff up to the top of the treble clef. So I bought it!

...

The worst part is that with the replacement slide, the core of the sound I liked is gone. It's still a good trombone, but not the instrument I bought anymore. I'm torn on whether to try returning it. I knew I was taking a risk, I just had no idea the parts would vary that much in dimensions.

Either return it all and run with the money... or you liked the horn as it began, so get the original slide back, use the original leadpipe, and worry about the rest some (or no) other time.

renice wrote: ↑Tue Apr 04, 2023 11:35 am With that evidence in hand I took it to the music store and asked the techs to take a look. They messed with it for a while and were stumped, landing on manufacturing defect.

Might not be much of a brain trust... it's a question of 'measure the hole and all the things that go in the hole'... It's theoretically possible that the slide tube is somewhat undersized (drew unusually tight on the mandrel) or there's some solder obstruction, but either is easily ascertained if you have a .547" repair mandrel and know what you're doing.

renice wrote: ↑Tue Apr 04, 2023 11:35 am The MK Drawing leadpipe with friction fit is too loose to use safely.

That much is to be expected - normal people would send out a pipe a couple of thou under bore spec, so as to avoid returns every time someone's slide isn't clean, plus you PTFE tape the collar as needed.

renice wrote: ↑Tue Apr 04, 2023 11:35 am The leadpipe fitting between those two slides is so vastly different, both wrong, it reminds me of the bad old days when corp instruments were inconsistent, leading to the advent of today's custom manufacturers, who are now shipping inconsistently machined parts, just like the folks they replaced.

I bought my Edwards at the factory about 3 years ago, went back to try and purchase other bells, slides, and tuning slides. I've also purchased components from forum members. Everything always fit like a glove, which I have always found amazing, considering the other components were made years apart from one another. What problems did you have?

Michael

Return the new slide, and take the old one back as you were very happy with the sound. If the instrument sounds good don't mess with the lead pipes, keep the original!

I had a somewhat similar experience with my shires bravo tenor. Not a Q series (as far as I can tell it's a re-branded Eastman). The slide action was pretty poor when I first received the horn. The music shop just me it just needed to have a "break in period". Which knowing what I know now is complete bs. Ultimately after an alignment from a good tech and polishing the outer slide did the action become good (not great). Really not something I was expecting to deal with on a new horn especially from shires. This was in 2019.

We're talking about a tenor, not a bass, correct? You didn't specify, but mentioned the other pipes measured .560", which would be bass pipes.

What did the pipe that fit in the slide measure?

Could the shop have given you a bass slide in exchange for the tenor slide?

Slide tubes cannot be "drawn tight on a mandrel" and end up being smaller than spec. (They also can't be drawn "loose", that isn't how tube drawing works) However, solder is eutectic, meaning, it shrinks when it cools, and on a tube with solder all the way around the joint, the area can be reduced in size by a thou or 2. This can mean a pipe will be tighter fit for the first couple of inches of insertion, and then become freer to move.

Leadpipes for a .547" slide cannot be .547" OD. (And basses can't be .562") because the fit would be too tight, and getting them in or out would be very difficult. A correctly sized pipe should measure a couple thou smaller on the OD of the large end that the ID of the tube it goes in.

I would question the shop selling the horn before the manufacturer in this case. Who knows how well their salesman knows the product they're selling? Did they give you the right parts in the first place? Maybe the slide you like isn't actually the one the horn is supposed to come with?

Hi there, and sorry to hear about the issues that you’re having. We’d very much like to look into this for you if you don’t mind sending us an email. We can contact the shop that you purchased from and make sure that you received the correct components or address any concerns. Send us an email to [email protected] with the serial number and proof of purchase if you have it. That will help us to get the ball rolling and see how we can help!
Hope we can get this sorted out for you quickly,
Sam

I have a 2018 Shires Q36 bass and the craftsmanship is excellent. My understanding is that current Q series instruments are completely made by Eastman.

hornbuilder wrote: ↑Tue Apr 04, 2023 6:06 pm Slide tubes cannot be "drawn tight on a mandrel" and end up being smaller than spec. (They also can't be drawn "loose", that isn't how tube drawing works) However, solder is eutectic, meaning, it shrinks when it cools, and on a tube with solder all the way around the joint, the area can be reduced in size by a thou or 2. This can mean a pipe will be tighter fit for the first couple of inches of insertion, and then become freer to move.

I agree that solder shrinkage is likely in this situation, but I'm surprised you say there can be no ID variation in drawing. Obviously, it can't get smaller than the mandrel itself, but depending on the consistency of process isn't there some variation possible?

I have a nominal .500" Chinese (Wessex) slide here where bore and ODs (main tube length/stocking) are several thou different between upper and lower inner tubes... surely getting accurate mandrels is the easier part of the process?

And discussions like this one:

viewtopic.php?p=8668#p8668

ttf_jnoxon wrote: .520 to .522 the difference is part of the manufacturing precess. The mandrel is .520 it will come out slightly larger than the mandrel size. All of the model 8 and 9 Williams were made on a .520 mandrel and the actual size when you measure it come in around .522. So to get a tube that is actually .520 you would need to start with maybe a .517 or .518 mandrel. And that is if you keep the tolerance very close. I have seen .520 mandrels turn out .525 or larger sizes because of the condition of the mandrel, speed with which it was done, and all of the human variables. So it is not quit and exact process.

So much to reply to, and I have to start work soon...

Most importantly, thank you all for the comments! Some things I knew but needed backup, and more than a few things that were new to me.

It's a tenor instrument, .547" (in theory). I'm pretty sure the slide the shop swapped in was from another tenor Q30 with a rotary valve. My measurements might not be precise because I was using a cheap digital caliper. I'm pretty sure this is manufacturing variance at the Eastman factory. Commercially, and engineering-wise, it makes sense to me to allow the variance. It is a good instrument, and most players who buy the Q series won't notice the subtle differences.

I'm going to email Shires and see what they say.

Thanks!
-Amy

renice wrote: ↑Wed Apr 05, 2023 6:47 am So much to reply to, and I have to start work soon...

Most importantly, thank you all for the comments! Some things I knew but needed backup, and more than a few things that were new to me.

It's a tenor instrument, .547" (in theory). I'm pretty sure the slide the shop swapped in was from another tenor Q30 with a rotary valve. My measurements might not be precise because I was using a cheap digital caliper. I'm pretty sure this is manufacturing variance at the Eastman factory. Commercially, and engineering-wise, it makes sense to me to allow the variance. It is a good instrument, and most players who buy the Q series won't notice the subtle differences.

I'm going to email Shires and see what they say.

Thanks!
-Amy

Samantha Lane, who responded above, is the person you should be contacting.

renice wrote: ↑Wed Apr 05, 2023 6:47 am So much to reply to, and I have to start work soon...

Most importantly, thank you all for the comments! Some things I knew but needed backup, and more than a few things that were new to me.

It's a tenor instrument, .547" (in theory). I'm pretty sure the slide the shop swapped in was from another tenor Q30 with a rotary valve. My measurements might not be precise because I was using a cheap digital caliper. I'm pretty sure this is manufacturing variance at the Eastman factory. Commercially, and engineering-wise, it makes sense to me to allow the variance. It is a good instrument, and most players who buy the Q series won't notice the subtle differences.

I'm going to email Shires and see what they say.

Thanks!
-Amy

I have the Shires repair manager's email if you're interested. Send me a PM. He's very good about responding.

Yes, I've made sure Samantha went through the registration process smoothly, but the email provided is almost certainly the fastest way to get in touch with them. They've historically been very quick to answer my emails. I've had a similar issue that Aidan describes with a Bach leadpipe and some local techs were primarily confused by it. That's not a sleight against them either, just not something that is a common issue, even for shops that are dealers. Dealing directly with manufacturer is the way to go imo, plus that way they can also shore up communications to dealers to know what they should do in similar situations. It might be a common, or at least not a novel issue that other dealers have had.

Contact Mrs. Lane. She is wonderful to deal with and will get things sorted.

I worked with the folks at Shires and they are going to take care of the slide

Thanks everyone. I'll hopefully have a better post to write soon.