TromboneChat

I'm wondering if there are any users on this forum that have successfully immigrated to countries like Germany or other places within the EU. In order to obtain a residence permit from what I understand winning an audition or going to school will greatly help but if anyone has stories or advice/guidance it would be much appreciated.

Do your ancestors come from an EU nation? It is possible to gain citizenship to an EU nation in this way, which would eliminate your need for a residence permit.

Michael

I haven't, but work in the EU a lot and have been thinking about it. Most of my colleagues have moved to Berlin in the last 6-7 years and there's a pretty friendly path to an artist visa. You basically need about six months of savings to prove you can support yourself until you get going, 3+ letters of support from musicians involved in the Berlin scene, and a few contracts to show upcoming work in Germany. From there it's not hard to get an artist visa that's good for 1-3 years that can be renewed until eligibility for residency comes (I think in 7 years). It's not nothing, but it's a lot less than most countries. If you go to Germany for school it especially provides a clear path to remain there if you're not moving with a more established career.

I’m an immigrant to Germany and my Nr1 advice would be to learn at least some German before you arrive, if you haven’t already. You can probably survive in Berlin with English but will miss out on a lot if you don’t put some effort into learning about the language and culture.

After 5y of holding a residence permit you can get the unlimited residence permit, subject to language and solvency criteria etc. which amongst other things allows more freedoms to live and work in other EU countries, and, you know, not having a time limit on your residency.

Citizenship is also possible after 8y, or after 7y if you do the integration course, even after 6y is you show an exceptional level of integration.

I can’t say much about the first few years if you are a non-EU National, coming from a former EU-country myself that was very easy thanks to the freedom of movement we had in the good old days so will keep quiet on that part, nobody wants to read a Brexit rant!

Very funny because many Germans try to leave the country. Maybe a swap is possible...

Trombonic wrote: ↑Fri Mar 31, 2023 12:19 am Very funny because many Germans try to leave the country. Maybe a swap is possible...

Well, in my opinion many out of those leaving (or talking about leaving) the country are a special category that has a very strange view on this world. Not too many countries that are at the same time more safe, more democratic, more wealthy or socially fair than Germany (if we ignore some with comparably very small populations). Some people just tend to blame others for their own misery without having a real idea how to do things better

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Aspenforest wrote: ↑Thu Mar 30, 2023 12:25 pm I'm wondering if there are any users on this forum that have successfully immigrated to countries like Germany or other places within the EU. In order to obtain a residence permit from what I understand winning an audition or going to school will greatly help but if anyone has stories or advice/guidance it would be much appreciated.

Winning an audition for a full time orchestra makes it almost automatic you'll easily get a work and residence permit. Going to school will give you a residence permit, usually with limited or no right to work. Some jurisdictions have easier paths for freelancers to get a work and residence permit, that's the case in France and Germany. Others make it virtually impossible, like Switzerland. Most countries are probably somewhere in-between. Sufficient knowledge of the language is usually a prerequisite.

Bottom line though is, to get a permit, you must already have a reason for it. I.e. you're enrolling at a university, you won a position, you're married to someone who livea there, or, for a freelancer permit, you already have gigs that show you're active there and make enough. The last is not so common when you haven't studied there and don't already live there on other grounds. Typically people will study there or in neighbouring countries, start gigging, and at the end of their studies, be able to get a permit as a freelancer. In Germany, you need to prove not only that you've been gigging there and/or have enough projects lined up, but also that at least some of your activities have a local importance to the state you're applying to live in (for example, you teach at a local school, or you frequently gig with a local group). The exception is Berlin, because its status as "cultural capital" means all work anywhere in Germany is considered local.

musicofnote wrote: ↑Sat Apr 01, 2023 12:27 am More than 6 million US citizens left the US for greener pastures according to US government estimates. And over 5k US citizens renounce their citizenship each year accord to US government statistics - they even publish the list quarterly, https://www.federalregister.gov/quarter ... expatriate

I was one of those in 1977, having left the US for Switzerland to study, admittedly for only 1 year, at the Musik-Akademie der Stadt Basel with Ed Tarr. I was a trumpet player back then.

Hi Buzz!

A friend of mine ended up doing similarly. Left the US came to Switzerland to study and ended up in Germany. Germany used to have an agreement due to WWII, that US citizens could, no questions asked, simply live in Germany. That expired in the mid-to late 1980's,

This is not true. There was no such agreement (except possibly for Berlin). Your source, whom I of course knew, was prone to making things up, and often really didn't know what he was talking about.

Otherwise, everything else you've written here is spot on!
Liebe Grüsse,
Howard

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At the risk of taking certain statements too literally, not every immigrant is always leaving for perceived "greener pastures." My spouse is an immigrant to the US because of me and did not intend to live here after their master's degree in the states before meeting me. Now, they like it here a lot. Probably more than I, even as a native. But they (and I) would have no reservations about moving back to their home country if our family situation differed. We're teaching our children both languages, aspects of both cultures, etc.

Similarly, their parents emigrated from one country to another for economic reasons when they were very young. They would have been unlikely to do so without those conditions and still feel more "at home" in their country of origin. I suppose that is technically "greener pastures" if one means purely for economic reasons. But that move was quite different than when my great-grandparents immigrated here from Italy in the early 1900s. They absolutely 110% considered greener pastures to the point where they would scold their children for not speaking English and tried as much as possible to eradicate any vestiges they had of their Italian heritage. Anecdotally, of the people I know who have emigrated from one country to another, I tend to see more of the former than the latter.

Which is just to say that a lot of immigrants move out of necessity or for personal reasons, not because they are chasing "greener pastures," which I typically think of as people who are not leaving out of need, but of want. And to be clear, there's nothing wrong with either, in my opinion.

Matt K: Just in case part of your answer is a response to my comment above. I just wanted to point out that there are certain parts of the society who blame the German state for everything that seems to go wrong in their lives and think all would be better somewhere else. typically people who have never lived and/or worked elsewhere. of course there can be numerous good reasons to migrate, such as following your significant other, a specific job or education or maybe simply interest in a specific culture.

I was particularly referring to the comment about emigration away from the US, merely indicating that I might one day do so myself and therefore be lumped in with the "greener pastures" group, even though my reason would have little to do with seeking a better life.

That said, regardless of whether or not a feeling is objectively or relatively correct, the one thing people can never be wrong about is what they feel. There was an attitude of intense animosity toward my ancestors when they left Italy, right or wrong. They were incredibly happy to be here, despite working in the coal mines for a meager amount; barely enough to put a roof over their head. In other words, much in the same way someone can be incorrect about the mechanics of how their embouchure works and can still play at a high level, someone may emigrate to a place you may perceive as being worse for them, and yet they may be happier. I would, therefore still consider seeking "greener pastures" a "good reason" as the people actually doing the emigrating probably have a much different perspective than yourself. Emigrating is one of the hardest things a person can put themselves through in life, even in situations where there is a large potential reward for the move, and so I would not so easily discount the opinions of someone doing so, as staying put is almost certainly easier.

There must be someplace that would take in the US Republican/GOP nutjobs, 'Q' believers, and Tea Party looney's.

They're hell bent on destroying the country in every way possible by making sure there's absolutely no universal health care, Medicaid/Medicare, by trying to dismantle the government, by allowing more and more guns so every citizen can just shoot anyone they want, by throwing the US Constitution under the bus and making a mockery of it, and by believing that anyone is above the law and can get away with whatever they want.

Maybe there's a nice place 'where the sun don't shine' they can all move to?

We have the same idiots here in Europe. But the folks who leave the countries, esp. Germany, are scientists, architects, engineers, doctors, craftsman, ..the folks who make all kind of problems do not have the required education to move to Canada, Switzerland, US...

I don’t have first hand experience of recruitment in all of those fields but I’m pretty confident to say the the largest number of engineers leaving the German workforce are going into retirement, not abroad. For those still working and emigrating, some go abroad for a few years then come back, a few stay abroad longer term but they are significantly outnumbered by engineers of other nationalities moving to Germany. It doesn’t mean we don’t need even more engineers to come to Germany btw., there are a lot of people here quickly approaching retirement!

Anyone know how many musicians are coming and going? Based on a small sample size I know of more British musicians here than I ever knew German musicians back home in the UK. One or two of the British musicians I know here have suggested to me that they’d really be struggling to make a living doing the same job in the UK, and whilst they might never get stinking rich here, it is at least possible to do the job they enjoy and have some degree of financial security, allowing time to also explore their own artistic interests without having to supplement their income with side-jobs.

MrHCinDE wrote: ↑Mon Apr 03, 2023 11:35 am I don’t have first hand experience of recruitment in all of those fields but I’m pretty confident to say the the largest number of engineers leaving the German workforce are going into retirement, not abroad. For those still working and emigrating, some go abroad for a few years then come back, a few stay abroad longer term but they are significantly outnumbered by engineers of other nationalities moving to Germany. It doesn’t mean we don’t need even more engineers to come to Germany btw., there are a lot of people here quickly approaching retirement!

Anyone know how many musicians are coming and going? Based on a small sample size I know of more British musicians here than I ever knew German musicians back home in the UK. One or two of the British musicians I know here have suggested to me that they’d really be struggling to make a living doing the same job in the UK, and whilst they might never get stinking rich here, it is at least possible to do the job they enjoy and have some degree of financial security, allowing time to also explore their own artistic interests without having to supplement their income with side-jobs.

I know 2 musicians who, along with their respective families, moved to the US citing 'raising their children" as the issue for leaving. I didn't ask for an explanation.

WGWTR180 wrote: ↑Mon Apr 03, 2023 12:37 pm I know 2 musicians who, along with their respective families, moved to the US citing 'raising their children" as the issue for leaving. I didn't ask for an explanation.

That’s a good point, I know quite a few German families (non-musicians) who have moved to an English speaking country for a couple of years so their kids can immerse themselves in mother tongue English and just generally have experience of a different culture. I can also think of several (amateur) musical colleagues who went to the US for a year during high school (without the whole family, staying with a host family) or university for similar reasons. There’s quite a big value here put on speaking excellent English in some professions, some time abroad seems to give a bit of a head start (not that it’s necessary in a lot of cases, many people who never went further than high school English already speak superb English, it always astounds me how good).

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