Becoming more confident playing orchestral music

[JeffBone44]

Although I'm now a member of two orchestras, it's the setting where I have the least experience. Despite having the fewest notes to play, I find it the most difficult. When the trombones do play, it seems so exposed, and everything needs to very precise. Notes need to be placed exactly where they should, and the length of notes is very important too. Intonation and tone quality are also equally important. With all of this going on, sometimes in orchestral settings I play scared. I'm so afraid of making a mistake that I get nervous. When I'm in a wind ensemble, jazz ensemble, or playing a show I play with the upmost confidence, I guess because I know what I'm doing.

I had a concert yesterday with a makeshift orchestra at a synagogue. The cantor there puts it together. He knows a lot of very talented musicians in the area. Although he's an excellent musician, he's not the greatest conductor. He's a little bit confusing to follow at times. Some parts of the concert went kind of rough for me yesterday. We played the Dvorak Cello Concerto, and due to my tendency to play in a tentative way in these situations, I clammed some notes and even messed up the rhythm on an important passage. The notes themselves definitely aren't an issue. When I played some of the passages by myself at home, I was totally fine. When I got to the concert all of the negative interference in my brain definitely affected me. It seems that it's a mind game more than anything else.

I'm trying not to get too down on myself. The tuba player next to me and the principal trombonist are both experienced players, and even they were having trouble figuring out where everything should line up. The tuba player even said to me when the concert ended, "Oh well, I did the best I could." Near the end of one of the movements, I knew exactly where I should come in, but the tuba player was confused, and because he didn't play, I didn't play either, because I assumed that because he's more experienced than me, he must be right. So that made me upset because I could have saved that situation, but I was too tentative and lacking confidence.

Even when I'm in my regular orchestras, it takes me 6 or 7 rehearsals to get things right so that I have the confidence to play it right. I feel like if I want to be hired for more orchestral gigs, however, that won't be suffice, as in many situations I may have only 2 or 3 rehearsals to learn the material.

So any stories or advice you may have for me to boost my confidence playing orchestrally, I'm all ears.

[hyperbolica]

Orchestral work for trombonists is known as "5 measures of terror preceded by 100 measures of boredom". Write in cues in your part. Count! Get a recording of the piece and follow it with your part, so you are more familiar with how your entrance relates to other things going on. The main thing is just to get more experience doing it. Your blood pressure will eventually normalize. Also, if you play weakly, it's going to sound like a mistake even if it's right. So my plan was always to sound like I'm right even when there may be some doubt. I stopped playing in local orchestras specifically because of the issue where you don't really get to play much (plus, the music selection was very uninteresting). There's more going on with chamber music for me.

[cmcslide]

I have felt exactly the same way working with orchestras. Everything Hyperbolica said about preparation is 100% spot on! I remember spending weeks in college preparing orchestral programs; just about all of the top players in the field did that, and that's where they cut their teeth doing it. For me, I drifted away from that kind of playing for a number of years before coming back to it about 10 years ago, and I felt very much like you about it when I came back to it. Even now I get a little bit nervous at times, even when I'm fully prepared.

[norbie2018]

[JeffBone44]

Some replies already, even a Toby Oft video to watch later. Thanks, much appreciated! It's nice to know that I'm not the only one struggling in this situation. I'll eventually work my way through it.

I had a book when I was in college called "The Inner Game of Music." I'll have to dig it out again. There's another book called "The Inner Game of Tennis" which I heard is even better than the music one, but a lot of the same concepts can be applied to music. I'll have to read that one too.

[GabrielRice]

Rhythm, rhythm, rhythm, rhythm.

Orchestra playing is the most difficult rhythmically, in the sense that there is rarely a clear groove to settle into, and the ensemble is typically so large that you can't really play passively with what you hear from the strings. It gets exponentially more difficult when the conductor is not clear and/or when the orchestra does not play well together.

That said, there is nearly always somebody for us to lock with. If you can focus on that - on what to coordinate your entrance with - you can get out of your own head and play as well as you're capable.

[Doug Elliott]

I just played an orchestra gig two days ago, a rare occasion for me in the past few decades. I know exactly how you feel.
What Gabe said is absolutely true, it's all about locking in. I suggest getting together with those other players to do sectionals and learn to totally lock the time in together.

[Kbiggs]

Just a few thoughts:

Know the piece. Get a score or look it up: IMSLP.org.

In most orchestral music, another instrument or section will play the rhythm and/or tune you’re having trouble with. Find it and listen for it.

Sectionals, if you can convince the other players (and if they have time).

Learn to count rests. I recently heard elsewhere on this forum a trick about counting rests. Try counting “1-1-1-1, 2-2-2-2, 3-3-3-3,” etc. rather than “1-2-3-4, 2-2-3-4,” etc. I think it was from Jay Friedman, but I’m not sure. I’m going it try it at my next rehearsal.

Always follow the conductor. Even when they’re wrong, they’re right. We live and die by the person waving the stick.

Never follow the conductor. They will only confuse you.

[Bach5G]

Similar to the advice above, nearly everything you might play is on YouTube. Listen/watch a performance with your part in hand. Note that you can slow the music to 75, 50 and 25% by clicking on the circle/wheel icon.

I tried the 1-1-1-1 counting. It has its place.

[JeffBone44]

I'll try that 1-1-1-1 next rehearsal

[MrHCinDE]

I know the feeling of the anticipation of listening through a load of beautiful orchestral music, waiting to come in on some exposed trombone parts. This excitement can spill over into fear if I’m not careful. What has really helped me is improving my confidence of coming in cleanly on the first chords of such parts, after that the rest feels a lot more comfortable.

After a morning warm up, leave the horn out on a stand somewhere and sporadically pick it up and play the exposed entries or other tricky parts. If you can play it cold and without being fully in the zone of concentration, it gets easier to play when fully prepared and focussed n rehearsal or on the gig.

For times I don’t have the instrument, e.g. whilst driving I like to free buzz the entries, might also help with rhythms I suppose but not my main focus.

[Kbiggs]

JeffBone44, after re-reading your post, it sounds as though you are describing something more than run-of-the-mill performance anxiety. Learning to work with anxiety rather than against it is the most helpful thing in the long run.

There are many different skills to address performance anxiety. Toby Oft describes a great skill in his video: make it interesting, and focus on making it interesting. The next skill I can think of is a coping statement: You wouldn’t be nervous if you didn’t care. You care about making music and playing your best. Even thought it’s not a situation where you’re physically threatened, your mind interprets the situation that way (“What if I screw up? That will be terrible!”), and therefore you’re nervous.

The heightened attention and focus that are part of anxiety can be very useful in performances. Unfortunately, when your attention is distracted by something that is not involved with the task at hand (making music), that heightened focus and attention will glom onto things that you can feel or sense, rather than think about. You’re trying to think about music, but your mind is getting distracted by the sounds of the audience, the hot lights, another player’s mistake, the sensations of a rapid heartbeat, clammy hands, dry mouth, rapid thoughts, etc.

Working with an experienced teacher (someone who has worked through performance anxiety) can be very helpful. There’s a couple of websites: I think bulletproof musician is one of them. Sometimes talk therapy with a good experienced counselor can help, someone who knows about the demands of performance (word of mouth and personal recommendations are best). Sometimes, a few good performances aided by a beta blocker prescribed by your doctor are indicated.

Breathe, and do your best.

[JeffBone44]

Toby Oft hit the nail on the head in that video - I was clearly more focused and interested on my nerves and the what-ifs than the music. When I'm completely immersed in the music, that's when I play my best.

[brassmedic]

Forget counting in your head. On the first bar of a rest, quietly touch one finger on your leg. On the second bar of rest, touch another finger. When you get to 5, start over, with your first finger being 6. This makes it physical, and if your brain gets distracted, your fingers remind you of where you are. Your memory will tell you which group of five you are on. During rehearsal, when you hear a prominent entrance by another instrument, make a note where it is during your rest. Then if you get lost in your counting you will know where you are as soon as that instrument comes in.

Listen to recordings. Over and over. Listen to how different orchestras approach the music. Knowing the music gives you confidence.

[BigBadandBass]

I took a class specializing in performance techniques last year. Let me see if I can find any info to send you. That teach did though have a vendetta against inner game of music, having read both, tennis is much better

[timothy42b]

The heightened attention and focus that are part of anxiety can be very useful in performances.

Useful and maybe necessary.

My handbells performed this Sunday, three short pieces. The first two were more difficult and the ringers were pretty stressed about getting them right. I put the easiest last to make sure we ended on a good note.

The opposite happened. The first two went better than any of the rehearsals had. On the third easy piece they coasted, and everyone made mistakes they'd never done before.

[JeffBone44]

I took a class specializing in performance techniques last year. Let me see if I can find any info to send you. That teach did though have a vendetta against inner game of music, having read both, tennis is much better

..
If you could do that, that would be great. I'm sure I could find a copy of The Inner Game of Tennis at my local library, but it would probably be a good resource to own so that I can refer back to it when I need to. Also, I've been wanting to get back into playing tennis, so that would be a double bonus.

[CalgaryTbone]

One more thing I haven't seen in previous posts - mark your part. If you are listening to a recording, or even in the actual rehearsal, and there's an Oboe solo at #7, if it's not cued, write oboe there. If the first Trumpet has 3 eighth note pickups into your entrance, write that rhythm before your first note. Even if there are cues, sometimes that passage (or something very similar) happens multiple times, so make a note that the cue is the 2nd time, etc. Orchestral Conductors often subdivide a short passage, or perhaps start in 4 but then go into 2 once the time is set - mark that to make sure that you don't think you've lost the count. Classical music has a lot more tempo changes than most other genres - an arrow above the music indicating forward (R) or back (L) is something I often ad to remind me that the tempo is going to need to move in some way. I forget where I first heard this, but I often repeat it to students - "pencil lead is cheap".

Jim Scott

[Savio]

This interests me because I feel some of the same as the OP. I play in an orchestra maybe 3-4 weeks a year. It's enough to get a glimpse of what it's all about, but not enough routine to feel comfortable or confident. What I do is primarily listen carefully to recordings of what is to be played. Often a lot of rests in symphonic music, so listen and perhaps note where to play. It makes me a little more confident. And of course practice technical difficulties. But it is often not that technically difficult. The real fun is sitting in the orchestra and getting all the notes to fit rhythmically, intonation, volume, sound, etc. And most importantly; musically together with the conductor, trombone section and the entire orchestra. It naturally has something to do with regularity because those who play daily have routine and can focus on interaction and musicality. I feel uncertain and often nervous, but also very excited and happy to have an opportunity.

When I sit in the orchestra there is no turning back. And yes, the rhythmic part is often a challenge. In a pop, jazz orchestra, you often have a drum set, bass, guitar, which often provide a focal point. In an opera/symphonic piece of music, you have a conductor, strings, woodwinds, percussion in a conglomeration of sounds. So you have to listen carefully to everything that happens. Better to be active in the music and do what you think is right, than to be passive and hesitant. Better to take chances and fail than to hesitate and never get it done.

Anyway, I know the feeling that the OP is asking about. But the joy of having the opportunity to play beats everything!

[hyperbolica]

One thing I often have to remind myself is to concentrate, even in the easy parts. I find that most of the time when I lose track of what's going on, it's the easy stuff that gets me. I'll be thinking about when to plant the dahlias this spring instead of counting or listening for cues. Just have to commit to paying attention to what is happening at the moment. You've played this passage perfectly 100 times. Just have to do it 101 times. It's hard to block the little conversations you have with yourself in your head sometimes. Focus on the conductor's beat, the violin part cue, the intonation of the trumpet that you have to match... There's a lot going on that you have to pay attention to, make sure you're focusing on the right things.

[sterb225]

Everything Toby says is spot on.
Two additional (and very poorly articulated) observations I have after spending over a decade playing exclusively in an orchestral setting:
- My experience has been that despite feeling exposed and alone, my notes need to mesh into the whole with precision. I'm rarely as 'naked' as I initially may feel when learning new rep. Understanding where I fit in and focusing on the adjacent voices helps me feel less exposed. Pitch, dynamics, texture, attacks, releases, and timing all matter critically. If I have internalized the notes and sound concept I want to project, maintaining a connection to those adjacent critical voices helps prevent self-doubt.
- Don't let the act of listening to recordings become doubt fuel. Especially for those of us playing for joy instead of a living, it's important to give ourselves some slack - mistakes and lapses in musicality aren't fatal!

[baBposaune]

As someone who has had tuba players say to me on more than one occasion, "The bass trombone players always knows the count, so I'll follow you" I will admit that, yes I diligently count my rests but prefer playing with a section that uses small gestures to cue rehearsal numbers or letters so we all feel confident about where we are.

There is no shame in looking at a stand mate and quietly mouthing, "Where are we?" if you are unsure or just plain lost. I can only recall one time that I did that and the second trombone mouthed, "I don't know." Since then I've made it a point to be on top of "the count" at least 99% of the time.

I also am a finger on the leg counter. It's worked for me for over 40 years.

Writing pencil "cues" in my part to remind me that the oboe solo starts 10 measures before my entrance helps, or which ever recognizable section or solo thing is happening where.

Knowing the piece is very helpful, but knowing the themes in each section and moreover what is happening in the music closer to the time before I play gives me a musical wave to ride on, sort of a ready.....set.....breathe play.

[musicofnote]

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