Yamaha Bass Trombones in Review
- Burgerbob
- Posts: 5157
- Joined: Mon Apr 23, 2018 8:10 pm
- Location: LA
- Contact:
Yamaha Bass Trombones in Review
By no means am I a Yamaha expert, but I currently own two Yamaha 613s (no letter and H) and I've played many examples of 822, 830, and one or two 622s. I'll type up my thoughts on the horns I would recommend for certain things, and the horns I wouldn't recommend.
Starting with the early horns, I have played a 612 way in the past- I think the 611 and 612 fall into the same-ish camp. They are good horns but dependent, and the early ones don't have split triggers (and some don't have D slides either). If this is your cup of tea, then I think they are a solid choice, much like a Holton 180 but with much more modern valves.
Along comes the 613 and 613G (yellow and rose bells). These are very similar to the 612 but with independent valves in F/G or F/Gb, as far as I know they all came with both slides. They have a lightweight brass slide and a light 10 inch bell. I currently own and use a 613 regularly for commercial settings, both at Disneyland and big band playing. These are great basses, easy to play, light, by far the most modern valves of the time (mid-'80s), efficient, you name it. A broad sound with a nice color to it, these are NOT boring. They are not perfect- the ranges are not quite even. High range is not bad on these but many modern horns will have a bit more focus and ease up there. The low range is easy enough, but not in a way that makes playing Bordognis down an octave or two a fun exercise, more in a Phil Teele way instead. I've tried to use my 613 in more "classical" settings a couple times, both in trombone choir and wind ensemble- for me it fell flat, as the sound just doesn't have the depth that some other more orchestrally oriented basses do.
The 613H comes along a decade or so later, and despite carrying the 613 name only carries a couple parts across- I think only the valves themselves (which are very good, again). These have a yellow slide with nickel oversleeves and a rose bell. This is largely a Bach 50 copy with nice valves. In that way it definitely succeeds, this has that depth the previous 613 lacks and a much more "legit" articulation. Ranges are more even, high range is quite good, low range has more of that ease for lines. These slides are compatible with Bachs at this point and I find it to play quite well with a 50 slide. And yes, these have the ability to be in G or Gb and come with both slides as well. Quite forward looking of Yamaha in many regards. Despite all the advantages this instrument has over the 613, I will be selling mine- I have Bachs to do Bach things, after all!
The 622 is Yeo's first design with Yamaha, and is largely similar to the 613H in many ways- it's again a Bach 50ish copy with some differences. I really liked the way the one I borrowed played, but my main gripe (other than it being dependent, of course) is that all the wraps are on the outside of the bell section, which makes the balance for me not very comfortable. Otherwise, this struck me largely as the 613H did, as a nice even instrument with a good orchestral sound. Neither the 613H or this horn is boring, but there is some "grain" lost to a good Bach 50... perhaps the bell making process, I couldn't tell you.
Now we get to the Xenos! I'll talk about the 822 first, Yeo's successor to the 622. It's largely similar to the 622 but now with a rose bell, fancy valve caps, and a few other small changes. I really like how these play and sound- some of that grain lost in the earlier horns is back, and these are very good orchestral basses. If there were some way they could make an independent version of this, I think it would be Yamaha's best bass trombone. Again, all the wraps are on the outside which is a bummer. Both the 622 and the 822 are designed with Yeo's mouthpiece in mind- pretty short, 1 1/8G sized, large throat. If you play with something tighter, smaller, etc., I find these horns to not play nearly as well. The leadpipe and rest of the instrument is definitely designed to give efficiency to that large mouthpiece.
Last up we have the Xeno 830 (and 830G, though I have not personally seen one of these in person). These are a continuation of the 613H, with a couple changes here and there. I've played 7-8 of these in various places and Disneyland provides one for the bass trombonists. For some reason, whether it's due to the handmaking of the bell or other QC factors, these are one of the least consistent Yamaha models they've ever produced- I have two friends with 613s and they play JUST like mine, to the point that I'm not sure I could tell blindfolded. The 613H strikes me the same way, and I've liked all the 822s I've played. The 830 is all over the map, both in playability and sound. The one I've played the most, at Disney, is right in the middle- easy enough to play, strangely inefficient, very little sound, and more boring than I can put into words. Some have been bright, snappy, colorful. Some have been huge, dense, orchestral. Some are plainly bad, with no focus anywhere and even less sound. From what I hear, Steve Fissel (Seattle Symphony former bass trombonist) bought one sight unseen from Hornguys and received one that rivals Mt. Vernon Bachs in terms of sound and playability (I've heard the same thing about Murray Crewe's prototype). This is definitely a horn I would play before buying, DO NOT be fooled into thinking that all Yamahas are the same and yours will be just as good as the last one you played.
One thing to note about all of these Yamahas- they all have that deep mouthpiece engagement, in that the mouthpiece goes in just a bit farther than it would in almost any other instrument. It's enough that Christan Griego offers a different Yamaha shank version of his mouthpieces. I'm actually considering it for my Markey 87 in my 613. Some pieces (like big Greg Blacks, for instance) are a bit short already, and make the horn even a bit harder to center and play consistently.
Earlier Yamahas, 613 and before, have chrome loss issues on the inner slides. Mine has a bit of loss, and so do all of the others I know. My slide is eminently useable, but it's an issue to keep in mind.
Also of note- starting with the 613H/622 generation, Yamaha started using very soft brass for many of the parts and these and later horns are much more susceptible to damage. 6 of the Yamaha 830s I've played were bought for the UCLA marching band. I played them before they were handed out to the kids. Within a couple weeks, every single one of them had a bent rotor knuckle and scrunched bell brace. My 613 (and actually, another that I played next to last night of all things) has a ripple in the F attachment on the top tube around the brace to the tuning slide receiver. There's a reason we don't see many of these surviving school use or even minor accidents.
Well, there we go. If I had to rank the horns in order of usefulness for me:
613/613G
613H
822
622
611/612
830
If you really enjoy your 830, I'm glad for you- the one I used at work was so soul-sucking that I've had to buy another instrument to use there just to avoid it, and it ended up being a 36 year old Yamaha that's better in basically every way.
There are some great Yamaha basses out there (some for cheaper than they perhaps should be) and hopefully this helps someone look for theirs.
Bonus photo of 613 and 613H for differences:
Starting with the early horns, I have played a 612 way in the past- I think the 611 and 612 fall into the same-ish camp. They are good horns but dependent, and the early ones don't have split triggers (and some don't have D slides either). If this is your cup of tea, then I think they are a solid choice, much like a Holton 180 but with much more modern valves.
Along comes the 613 and 613G (yellow and rose bells). These are very similar to the 612 but with independent valves in F/G or F/Gb, as far as I know they all came with both slides. They have a lightweight brass slide and a light 10 inch bell. I currently own and use a 613 regularly for commercial settings, both at Disneyland and big band playing. These are great basses, easy to play, light, by far the most modern valves of the time (mid-'80s), efficient, you name it. A broad sound with a nice color to it, these are NOT boring. They are not perfect- the ranges are not quite even. High range is not bad on these but many modern horns will have a bit more focus and ease up there. The low range is easy enough, but not in a way that makes playing Bordognis down an octave or two a fun exercise, more in a Phil Teele way instead. I've tried to use my 613 in more "classical" settings a couple times, both in trombone choir and wind ensemble- for me it fell flat, as the sound just doesn't have the depth that some other more orchestrally oriented basses do.
The 613H comes along a decade or so later, and despite carrying the 613 name only carries a couple parts across- I think only the valves themselves (which are very good, again). These have a yellow slide with nickel oversleeves and a rose bell. This is largely a Bach 50 copy with nice valves. In that way it definitely succeeds, this has that depth the previous 613 lacks and a much more "legit" articulation. Ranges are more even, high range is quite good, low range has more of that ease for lines. These slides are compatible with Bachs at this point and I find it to play quite well with a 50 slide. And yes, these have the ability to be in G or Gb and come with both slides as well. Quite forward looking of Yamaha in many regards. Despite all the advantages this instrument has over the 613, I will be selling mine- I have Bachs to do Bach things, after all!
The 622 is Yeo's first design with Yamaha, and is largely similar to the 613H in many ways- it's again a Bach 50ish copy with some differences. I really liked the way the one I borrowed played, but my main gripe (other than it being dependent, of course) is that all the wraps are on the outside of the bell section, which makes the balance for me not very comfortable. Otherwise, this struck me largely as the 613H did, as a nice even instrument with a good orchestral sound. Neither the 613H or this horn is boring, but there is some "grain" lost to a good Bach 50... perhaps the bell making process, I couldn't tell you.
Now we get to the Xenos! I'll talk about the 822 first, Yeo's successor to the 622. It's largely similar to the 622 but now with a rose bell, fancy valve caps, and a few other small changes. I really like how these play and sound- some of that grain lost in the earlier horns is back, and these are very good orchestral basses. If there were some way they could make an independent version of this, I think it would be Yamaha's best bass trombone. Again, all the wraps are on the outside which is a bummer. Both the 622 and the 822 are designed with Yeo's mouthpiece in mind- pretty short, 1 1/8G sized, large throat. If you play with something tighter, smaller, etc., I find these horns to not play nearly as well. The leadpipe and rest of the instrument is definitely designed to give efficiency to that large mouthpiece.
Last up we have the Xeno 830 (and 830G, though I have not personally seen one of these in person). These are a continuation of the 613H, with a couple changes here and there. I've played 7-8 of these in various places and Disneyland provides one for the bass trombonists. For some reason, whether it's due to the handmaking of the bell or other QC factors, these are one of the least consistent Yamaha models they've ever produced- I have two friends with 613s and they play JUST like mine, to the point that I'm not sure I could tell blindfolded. The 613H strikes me the same way, and I've liked all the 822s I've played. The 830 is all over the map, both in playability and sound. The one I've played the most, at Disney, is right in the middle- easy enough to play, strangely inefficient, very little sound, and more boring than I can put into words. Some have been bright, snappy, colorful. Some have been huge, dense, orchestral. Some are plainly bad, with no focus anywhere and even less sound. From what I hear, Steve Fissel (Seattle Symphony former bass trombonist) bought one sight unseen from Hornguys and received one that rivals Mt. Vernon Bachs in terms of sound and playability (I've heard the same thing about Murray Crewe's prototype). This is definitely a horn I would play before buying, DO NOT be fooled into thinking that all Yamahas are the same and yours will be just as good as the last one you played.
One thing to note about all of these Yamahas- they all have that deep mouthpiece engagement, in that the mouthpiece goes in just a bit farther than it would in almost any other instrument. It's enough that Christan Griego offers a different Yamaha shank version of his mouthpieces. I'm actually considering it for my Markey 87 in my 613. Some pieces (like big Greg Blacks, for instance) are a bit short already, and make the horn even a bit harder to center and play consistently.
Earlier Yamahas, 613 and before, have chrome loss issues on the inner slides. Mine has a bit of loss, and so do all of the others I know. My slide is eminently useable, but it's an issue to keep in mind.
Also of note- starting with the 613H/622 generation, Yamaha started using very soft brass for many of the parts and these and later horns are much more susceptible to damage. 6 of the Yamaha 830s I've played were bought for the UCLA marching band. I played them before they were handed out to the kids. Within a couple weeks, every single one of them had a bent rotor knuckle and scrunched bell brace. My 613 (and actually, another that I played next to last night of all things) has a ripple in the F attachment on the top tube around the brace to the tuning slide receiver. There's a reason we don't see many of these surviving school use or even minor accidents.
Well, there we go. If I had to rank the horns in order of usefulness for me:
613/613G
613H
822
622
611/612
830
If you really enjoy your 830, I'm glad for you- the one I used at work was so soul-sucking that I've had to buy another instrument to use there just to avoid it, and it ended up being a 36 year old Yamaha that's better in basically every way.
There are some great Yamaha basses out there (some for cheaper than they perhaps should be) and hopefully this helps someone look for theirs.
Bonus photo of 613 and 613H for differences:
Last edited by Burgerbob on Sun Mar 05, 2023 11:32 am, edited 1 time in total.
Aidan Ritchie, LA area player and teacher
-
- Posts: 1130
- Joined: Fri Mar 23, 2018 7:20 am
- Location: Boston, MA, USA
- Contact:
Re: Yamaha Bass Trombones in Review
I don't think either of these statements is accurate. I've never seen a 622 with a yellow bell. They changed the tuning slide from yellow to gold brass with the 822, but AFAIK both bells were always gold.
I know for a fact that Yamaha went through an extensive prototyping process with Doug - including various experiments with the slide and leadpipe. If nothing else, I'm pretty sure the leadpipe in the 613H is quite long, and the 622 leadpipe is a pretty standard length. Or at least they were in early production. I got a guided tour of the then-new 613H at the ITF in Kalamazoo in 1990 or 91, and they showed me the very long leadpipe. Later on Doug let me play one of the 622 prototype slides for a while on my Bach; it had an extra-soft annealed crook and a short leadpipe, which I replaced with first a Conn pipe and then a 622 production pipe Doug loaned me.
You're right on about the 830. I've played a couple that were outstanding and some that were like banging trash can lids together.
Gabe Rice
Faculty
Boston University School of Music
Kinhaven Music School Senior Session
Bass Trombonist
Rhode Island Philharmonic Orchestra
Vermont Symphony Orchestra
Faculty
Boston University School of Music
Kinhaven Music School Senior Session
Bass Trombonist
Rhode Island Philharmonic Orchestra
Vermont Symphony Orchestra
- Burgerbob
- Posts: 5157
- Joined: Mon Apr 23, 2018 8:10 pm
- Location: LA
- Contact:
Re: Yamaha Bass Trombones in Review
Yup, you're right. Derp!GabrielRice wrote: ↑Sun Mar 05, 2023 11:28 amI don't think either of these statements is accurate. I've never seen a 622 with a yellow bell. They changed the tuning slide from yellow to gold brass with the 822, but AFAIK both bells were always gold.
Aidan Ritchie, LA area player and teacher
-
- Posts: 2530
- Joined: Sat Apr 07, 2018 6:10 pm
Re: Yamaha Bass Trombones in Review
No 620G?
- Burgerbob
- Posts: 5157
- Joined: Mon Apr 23, 2018 8:10 pm
- Location: LA
- Contact:
Re: Yamaha Bass Trombones in Review
Never seen or played one. As far as I can tell, they are just a 421G with an added valve. I'm not a dependent guy so not very interesting to me.
Aidan Ritchie, LA area player and teacher
-
- Posts: 1624
- Joined: Tue Jul 02, 2019 9:06 am
- Location: New Jersey
- Contact:
Re: Yamaha Bass Trombones in Review
The 611, 612, and 620 all use the same leadpipe, which is the "M'PIPE BL421G". The Slides however have changed over time, and there are some differences. The last iteration of the 612 trombones had an all nickel slide, which was carried over to the 620G. The 620G also has a bell that is only used on that horn.
I would say the 620G is based on the 421G by way of the 612. The original 611/612 had slightly different valves, which were changed on the later versions. It was around that time, as far as I can tell, that the "pro" horns went to having the nickel silver valve casings, instead of brass. Though, the naming conventions and specifications over the years from yamaha leaves much to be desired.
David S. - daveyboy37 from TTF
Bach 39, LT36B, 42BOF & 42T, King 2103 / 3b, Kanstul 1570CR & 1588CR, Yamaha YBL-612 RII, YBL-822G & YBL-830, Sterling 1056GHS Euphonium,
Livingston Symphony Orchestra NJ - Trombone
Bach 39, LT36B, 42BOF & 42T, King 2103 / 3b, Kanstul 1570CR & 1588CR, Yamaha YBL-612 RII, YBL-822G & YBL-830, Sterling 1056GHS Euphonium,
Livingston Symphony Orchestra NJ - Trombone
- sirisobhakya
- Posts: 361
- Joined: Mon Jun 11, 2018 8:04 pm
- Location: Bangkok, Thailand
- Contact:
Re: Yamaha Bass Trombones in Review
I own a 830 and play-tested another 3 of them. Strongly agree on the fact that they are all over the map. Mine is just right for me: enough bark at loud end but with a lot of low overtones. My underclassman’s is outright bad with no focus and a dull sound - to the point he was shocked when he tried mine. Another one is darker despite lighter than mine, and I kinda like it. The last one is just in the absolute middle.
I also notice that the 830 seems to like large, deep mouthpiece. The 59L supplied is not a good match in my opinion. I swapped to Doug Yeo and the horn has come alive. I think the leadpipe is quite tight and long, so a large mouthpiece counteracts that.
The 2-3 620Gs I have play-tested play like one would expect a Yamaha to play: easy, light, and consistent. The 421G I have tried plays like a laaaarge tenor.
The older generation horns are quite a different beast. A 612 I own is very dark and more free-blowing, but I don’t quite like the feeling. Also the 10-inch bell rim is quite close to the slide, and I crashed my fingers into the bell rim numerous times. The 613G (not H) feels like the 620G with slightly more resistance.
I also notice that the 830 seems to like large, deep mouthpiece. The 59L supplied is not a good match in my opinion. I swapped to Doug Yeo and the horn has come alive. I think the leadpipe is quite tight and long, so a large mouthpiece counteracts that.
The 2-3 620Gs I have play-tested play like one would expect a Yamaha to play: easy, light, and consistent. The 421G I have tried plays like a laaaarge tenor.
The older generation horns are quite a different beast. A 612 I own is very dark and more free-blowing, but I don’t quite like the feeling. Also the 10-inch bell rim is quite close to the slide, and I crashed my fingers into the bell rim numerous times. The 613G (not H) feels like the 620G with slightly more resistance.
Chaichan Wiriyaswat
Bangkok, Thailand
Bangkok, Thailand
-
- Posts: 431
- Joined: Thu Aug 16, 2018 12:59 pm
Re: Yamaha Bass Trombones in Review
Great review ,Aidan !…Do You (or anybody else who read This) happen to know what the attachment bore is?…Standard ‘594 ?
-
- Posts: 1562
- Joined: Sun Apr 29, 2018 10:43 am
- Location: Sweden
Re: Yamaha Bass Trombones in Review
Great and interesting review. I haven't at all that much experience of Yamaha basses. I have the singles 321, 322 and a dependant 612R. This thread deals with doubles so far but In short I want to add only that the singles are great. Now the double 612R was my first bass and I bought it new 1989. I don't mind independant but most basses I own are dependant like this one. It has a D-slide, Eb-slide and an bE-slide. Rollers on the triggers. I miss split triggers. The 612R has a red 10" cupper-laquer bell. It has a great low register, fantastic pedals. It is a bit uneven in registers just as Aidan says. The higer register as early as c above the staff loose some lush and needs more work to get the desired "core" back. To me this is not my choice for big band. The sound is a bit too big and spread to the sides for my taste and instead I want my bass to have more projection. I think it's the 10" bell that spread the sound. I have had that experience with every 10" bell bass when I played in a big band. My friends also say this since they always give me feedback on any new bass I bring. They always prefer the ones with 9 1/2" or 9" bells before the larger ones. The 612R is very easy to play and produce a huge sound in the staff and below. Wasn't the 612 the Phil Theele model? Interested also if you've played a 612R, Aidan?
/Tom
/Tom
-
- Posts: 1624
- Joined: Tue Jul 02, 2019 9:06 am
- Location: New Jersey
- Contact:
Re: Yamaha Bass Trombones in Review
Oh wow, I've never seen a bE pedal for the 612R, just the Eb and D. I have seen some interesting variations off the 611/612 out there though, like a 611 II that did not have split triggers, and was marked on the cork barrel. The 611/612 was in production for at least 20 years, and they went through a bunch of different versions, like many of the Yamaha trombones that have been in production for a long time. They seem to have three distinct eras in terms of slide construction. Also, the 611 eventually disappeared and was renamed the 612R, as the only difference between the 611 and 612 was the bell.imsevimse wrote: ↑Mon Mar 06, 2023 3:59 am Now the double 612R was my first bass and I bought it new 1989. I don't mind independant but most basses I own are dependant like this one. It has a D-slide, Eb-slide and an bE-slide. Rollers on the triggers. I miss split triggers. The 612R has a red 10" cupper-laquer bell. It has a great low register, fantastic pedals.
David S. - daveyboy37 from TTF
Bach 39, LT36B, 42BOF & 42T, King 2103 / 3b, Kanstul 1570CR & 1588CR, Yamaha YBL-612 RII, YBL-822G & YBL-830, Sterling 1056GHS Euphonium,
Livingston Symphony Orchestra NJ - Trombone
Bach 39, LT36B, 42BOF & 42T, King 2103 / 3b, Kanstul 1570CR & 1588CR, Yamaha YBL-612 RII, YBL-822G & YBL-830, Sterling 1056GHS Euphonium,
Livingston Symphony Orchestra NJ - Trombone
- spencercarran
- Posts: 644
- Joined: Sat Oct 17, 2020 1:02 pm
- Location: Chicago
Re: Yamaha Bass Trombones in Review
Before selling it along, you should try out G tuning! It's way more useful.Burgerbob wrote: ↑Sun Mar 05, 2023 10:42 amThe 613H comes along a decade or so later, and despite carrying the 613 name only carries a couple parts across- I think only the valves themselves (which are very good, again). These have a yellow slide with nickel oversleeves and a rose bell. This is largely a Bach 50 copy with nice valves. In that way it definitely succeeds, this has that depth the previous 613 lacks and a much more "legit" articulation. Ranges are more even, high range is quite good, low range has more of that ease for lines. These slides are compatible with Bachs at this point and I find it to play quite well with a 50 slide. And yes, these have the ability to be in G or Gb and come with both slides as well. Quite forward looking of Yamaha in many regards. Despite all the advantages this instrument has over the 613, I will be selling mine- I have Bachs to do Bach things, after all!
-
- Posts: 281
- Joined: Wed Apr 03, 2019 8:44 am
Re: Yamaha Bass Trombones in Review
The 613H's wrap is pretty different from a 50, isn't it?
-
- Posts: 255
- Joined: Mon Oct 24, 2022 1:51 pm
- Location: Connecticut
Re: Yamaha Bass Trombones in Review
I very nearly bought the Yamaha Doug Yeo model as my first bass trombone about 20 years ago - it must have been the 622 back then. It was a very evenly balanced horn with a great sound. I ended up getting a Shires, but I think I would have been happy with the Yeo for a good while, until I wanted to switch to independent valves.
-
- Posts: 318
- Joined: Thu Dec 13, 2018 3:31 pm
Re: Yamaha Bass Trombones in Review
Thanks, Aidan, for a great oversight and an insightful review! Though I'm only a Yamaha single valve bass player - my trusty old 421 and my dual is my 62H - I find it always useful with more knowledge from people with experience.
Play long and prosper, Good Sir, and I look forward to more talk about Yam basses.
Play long and prosper, Good Sir, and I look forward to more talk about Yam basses.
Welcome to visit my web store: https://www.danieleng.com/
Big Engband on Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/artist/30Vuft1 ... me3sZi8q-A
Big Engband on Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/artist/30Vuft1 ... me3sZi8q-A
-
- Posts: 1562
- Joined: Sun Apr 29, 2018 10:43 am
- Location: Sweden
Re: Yamaha Bass Trombones in Review
Yes, I should have told that the bE tuning was something I had a tech do. Since the horn responded better with the Eb slide compared to the D and it responded best with the slide totally removed I started to use it with corks. I "plugged" the attachment to avoid getting dirt in the valve and started to use it as a single for a while. This was long ago and at that time I did not know the first double basses had an E-slide and there was no Internet (or I had no computer and no Internet). My idea was to make the slide as short as possible to get a more responsive horn, particularly in the upper register. The tech did a good job but with the slide pulled it became just long enough for bE and enabled a B at the far end, a lot more useful than E but just pure luck. I became a collector in 2014-2015 and then I bought other better basses, but that Yamaha with bE was my bass for about 15 years and served me well.tbonesullivan wrote: ↑Mon Mar 06, 2023 6:41 amOh wow, I've never seen a bE pedal for the 612R, just the Eb and D....imsevimse wrote: ↑Mon Mar 06, 2023 3:59 am Now the double 612R was my first bass and I bought it new 1989. I don't mind independant but most basses I own are dependant like this one. It has a D-slide, Eb-slide and an bE-slide. Rollers on the triggers. I miss split triggers. The 612R has a red 10" cupper-laquer bell. It has a great low register, fantastic pedals.
The horn responds better with the bE-slide but still better with no slide at all...
... so yes you are right the bE-slide for a 612R was not available when I bought it.
/Tom
- Burgerbob
- Posts: 5157
- Joined: Mon Apr 23, 2018 8:10 pm
- Location: LA
- Contact:
Re: Yamaha Bass Trombones in Review
Yes, both horns I have measure right at .594.
Yes, Phil played the 612. I have a friend with one of his horns (gold plated!). It plays great, similar to the 613 but not the same. I personally prefer the 613, it's a bit more even and doesn't have quite the same level of unevenness. Great sound though.
I actually have the G slide for my 613 as well- I both prefer F/Gb (low C and B aren't super far out) and it's just too late for me, I have too much muscle memory baked in at this point.spencercarran wrote: ↑Mon Mar 06, 2023 7:21 am
Before selling it along, you should try out G tuning! It's way more useful.
Yes, but of course most 50 copies are not copies of the valves or wrap, but the slide, tuning slide, and bell.
Aidan Ritchie, LA area player and teacher
- spencercarran
- Posts: 644
- Joined: Sat Oct 17, 2020 1:02 pm
- Location: Chicago
Re: Yamaha Bass Trombones in Review
Combined D is definitely more convenient than Eb (and probably mandatory for folks with shorter arms), but the whole point of independent valves is to have them be, well, independently useful. F/Gb are just too close to each other IMO, not enough occasions where the second trigger is a clearly better choice than first.Burgerbob wrote: ↑Mon Mar 06, 2023 10:06 amI actually have the G slide for my 613 as well- I both prefer F/Gb (low C and B aren't super far out) and it's just too late for me, I have too much muscle memory baked in at this point.spencercarran wrote: ↑Mon Mar 06, 2023 7:21 am
Before selling it along, you should try out G tuning! It's way more useful.
I'm curious - you mentioned the 613H is compatible with Bach 50 handslides, do the main tuning slides also line up? And did you feel a dramatic difference between a 50 slide (or any of your other Bach-tenoned slides) and the stock Yamaha slide?
-
- Posts: 1624
- Joined: Tue Jul 02, 2019 9:06 am
- Location: New Jersey
- Contact:
Re: Yamaha Bass Trombones in Review
It is, and some other parts of the horn are as well. I think the big thing though is the bell, which I believe is "H" for heavyweight? Part of me has always wondered how it would work out of someone stuck a 613H bell onto a 830 Xeno. They share a LOT of the same parts. I think the new "lighter weight" bell is a lot of why some seem to be great, and others just "mild". Maybe working with the thinner brass makes it harder to make them consistently.
David S. - daveyboy37 from TTF
Bach 39, LT36B, 42BOF & 42T, King 2103 / 3b, Kanstul 1570CR & 1588CR, Yamaha YBL-612 RII, YBL-822G & YBL-830, Sterling 1056GHS Euphonium,
Livingston Symphony Orchestra NJ - Trombone
Bach 39, LT36B, 42BOF & 42T, King 2103 / 3b, Kanstul 1570CR & 1588CR, Yamaha YBL-612 RII, YBL-822G & YBL-830, Sterling 1056GHS Euphonium,
Livingston Symphony Orchestra NJ - Trombone
-
- Posts: 809
- Joined: Sun Jul 01, 2018 11:00 am
- Location: Ludwigsburg, Germany
Re: Yamaha Bass Trombones in Review
Thanks for taking the time to write this up.
I’m interested to hear what you mean by this:
The valves on my Yamaha are mechanically excellent and the horn has a very accessible lower range. I have wondered in the past how standard rotors can play so well. My Holton valves are mechanically very very good, maybe just very slightly slower than the Yamaha but neither the speed nor playability of the Holton valves are substantially different to the Yamaha and for sure I couldn’t justify getting them swapped out.
Is the trigger setup what you mean by modern valves or do you mean the actual valves themselves? If so what I’d like to ask what is the difference in the valves themselves?
(For full disclosure I have tested both for a while and have decided to keep the Holton. The Yamaha is currently listed on here for sale.)
I’m interested to hear what you mean by this:
At the moment I have a Yamaha 612Rii and a Holton TR-180 in the cupboard. My 612Rii has AFAIK factory ‘modern’ trigger mechanisms for the thumb and finger. I don’t believe it was a mod. The Holton has basically the same setup which certainly was a mod.
The valves on my Yamaha are mechanically excellent and the horn has a very accessible lower range. I have wondered in the past how standard rotors can play so well. My Holton valves are mechanically very very good, maybe just very slightly slower than the Yamaha but neither the speed nor playability of the Holton valves are substantially different to the Yamaha and for sure I couldn’t justify getting them swapped out.
Is the trigger setup what you mean by modern valves or do you mean the actual valves themselves? If so what I’d like to ask what is the difference in the valves themselves?
(For full disclosure I have tested both for a while and have decided to keep the Holton. The Yamaha is currently listed on here for sale.)
-
- Posts: 1624
- Joined: Tue Jul 02, 2019 9:06 am
- Location: New Jersey
- Contact:
Re: Yamaha Bass Trombones in Review
I guess I should add my experience to the thread. I've owned a YBL-612 RII for quite some time, and it was my only bass trombone for most of this time. I had for a while been looking at an older YBL-612 with a Yellow Brass bell at Dillon music without split triggers, but ultimately wasn't playing bass enough at that point to justify things.k
I also owned a YBL-613H Silver for a year, and for a while owned that, the 612 RII, and a new 830 Xeno, and was A/Bing them for a quite a while. I'm definitely no where as accomplished a player as Burgerbob or many other players, but I have played all three in an orchestral setting for multiple concerts.
Regarding the YBL-613H S, I can echo what has been said: it plays like a Bach 50 in some ways. Some have called it the "best bach 50 that bach never built". The example I had did look to have been a marching horn or at least a school horn for a while, and it definitely had past damage to the valve wraps, and the second valve slide outer ferrules looked a bit expanded, so I had to use a very thick grease for the G and Gb crooks. There also was a wrinkle all the way around in the bell ferrule for the main tuning slide, so the brass used for these definitely does not seem to be work hardened much. The sound was very good, nice deep and with a lot of core. It had a pretty high volume threshold before it started to sound bad.
I ended up selling it however, as at least with the example I have, the 830 Xeno outperformed it in every way. It was new, so it didn't have any condition issues, but I also felt that it was easier to get the 830 to sound like how I wanted it to sound, and it wasn't as locked into a specific sound as the 613H was. I definitely don't feel that it is a dead sounding or that I have to fight the horn at all to get the volume and sound that I like.
Now, regarding the YBL-611/612, there are actually several generations of these horns, which were first developed in the mid 1970s. I believe they were based on the Yamaha YBL-421 bass trombone, which originally had a Conn style traditional wrap. They originally came out with yellow brass outer slides with nickel silver over sleeves, and a valve wrap somewhat like a Conn Dependent horn. Yamaha kept the F-attachment tuning slide at the lower back of the horn, but decided to make a very elegant "shepherds crook" tube so that the crook for the dependent valve was at the top of the valve, not in the middle. I have no idea why they did this, and in some ways it made it more difficult to get the later D-slide to fit. Both came with a double thumb paddle like seen on other dependent horns.
In terms of "generations", the 611/612 at some point moved to a "II" marking after the model number, and at this time Yamaha was using an inner slide brace that had an enlarged flange on the slide receiver side, which looked some what "olds" style. They also moved from the Yellow outer slide with nickel oversleeves to a yellow slide with drawn-in oversleeves. The last version of the slide went back to a standard brace on the inner slide, and changed the outer slide to entirely nickel silver. However I have seen examples with the later design brass outer slide, but without the flange on the inner slide. I have also seen examples with Nickel Outer slides but no split triggers. There definitely seems to have been significant changes back and forth during the run. Also of note is that the 611 was renamed to the 612R at some point. They also changed the valves from brass cased valves to nickel silver cased valves that look bigger, but I do not know if they are actually larger inside.
The horn that I have is a 612R II, which has the split triggers and nickel silver outer side. I believe this is the last version that Yamaha sold, and it was replaced by the 620G in the lineup. It came with an Eb and a D crook for the second valve, and to echo was was said by "imsevimse", which crook you have definitely affects the response of the horn. The Eb crook is a simple offset crook, and it tunes where it inserts into the ferrules attached to the valve. The D crook probably weighs 4-5 times what the Eb crook does, as not only is it longer, it also has a 6-7 inch long tuning slide as well, and does not tune at the valve ferrules. Playing it the Eb crook results in a horn that is much more "alive", and maybe more suitable for commercial / jazz playing. With the D crook, it is a bit easier to center, and harder to make it "soar" by pushing the volume. Looking at pictures of Phil Teele, he seems to have played the 612 with the Eb crook in it, and I have never seen a picture of him with the D crook installed.
Playing wise, the 612RII can be a bit diffuse at times, and I had to work with it a lot to get a more broad "orchestral" sound, but it definitely is possible. It won't sound like a Bach 50, but it definitely can sound good.
I also owned a YBL-613H Silver for a year, and for a while owned that, the 612 RII, and a new 830 Xeno, and was A/Bing them for a quite a while. I'm definitely no where as accomplished a player as Burgerbob or many other players, but I have played all three in an orchestral setting for multiple concerts.
Regarding the YBL-613H S, I can echo what has been said: it plays like a Bach 50 in some ways. Some have called it the "best bach 50 that bach never built". The example I had did look to have been a marching horn or at least a school horn for a while, and it definitely had past damage to the valve wraps, and the second valve slide outer ferrules looked a bit expanded, so I had to use a very thick grease for the G and Gb crooks. There also was a wrinkle all the way around in the bell ferrule for the main tuning slide, so the brass used for these definitely does not seem to be work hardened much. The sound was very good, nice deep and with a lot of core. It had a pretty high volume threshold before it started to sound bad.
I ended up selling it however, as at least with the example I have, the 830 Xeno outperformed it in every way. It was new, so it didn't have any condition issues, but I also felt that it was easier to get the 830 to sound like how I wanted it to sound, and it wasn't as locked into a specific sound as the 613H was. I definitely don't feel that it is a dead sounding or that I have to fight the horn at all to get the volume and sound that I like.
Now, regarding the YBL-611/612, there are actually several generations of these horns, which were first developed in the mid 1970s. I believe they were based on the Yamaha YBL-421 bass trombone, which originally had a Conn style traditional wrap. They originally came out with yellow brass outer slides with nickel silver over sleeves, and a valve wrap somewhat like a Conn Dependent horn. Yamaha kept the F-attachment tuning slide at the lower back of the horn, but decided to make a very elegant "shepherds crook" tube so that the crook for the dependent valve was at the top of the valve, not in the middle. I have no idea why they did this, and in some ways it made it more difficult to get the later D-slide to fit. Both came with a double thumb paddle like seen on other dependent horns.
In terms of "generations", the 611/612 at some point moved to a "II" marking after the model number, and at this time Yamaha was using an inner slide brace that had an enlarged flange on the slide receiver side, which looked some what "olds" style. They also moved from the Yellow outer slide with nickel oversleeves to a yellow slide with drawn-in oversleeves. The last version of the slide went back to a standard brace on the inner slide, and changed the outer slide to entirely nickel silver. However I have seen examples with the later design brass outer slide, but without the flange on the inner slide. I have also seen examples with Nickel Outer slides but no split triggers. There definitely seems to have been significant changes back and forth during the run. Also of note is that the 611 was renamed to the 612R at some point. They also changed the valves from brass cased valves to nickel silver cased valves that look bigger, but I do not know if they are actually larger inside.
The horn that I have is a 612R II, which has the split triggers and nickel silver outer side. I believe this is the last version that Yamaha sold, and it was replaced by the 620G in the lineup. It came with an Eb and a D crook for the second valve, and to echo was was said by "imsevimse", which crook you have definitely affects the response of the horn. The Eb crook is a simple offset crook, and it tunes where it inserts into the ferrules attached to the valve. The D crook probably weighs 4-5 times what the Eb crook does, as not only is it longer, it also has a 6-7 inch long tuning slide as well, and does not tune at the valve ferrules. Playing it the Eb crook results in a horn that is much more "alive", and maybe more suitable for commercial / jazz playing. With the D crook, it is a bit easier to center, and harder to make it "soar" by pushing the volume. Looking at pictures of Phil Teele, he seems to have played the 612 with the Eb crook in it, and I have never seen a picture of him with the D crook installed.
Playing wise, the 612RII can be a bit diffuse at times, and I had to work with it a lot to get a more broad "orchestral" sound, but it definitely is possible. It won't sound like a Bach 50, but it definitely can sound good.
David S. - daveyboy37 from TTF
Bach 39, LT36B, 42BOF & 42T, King 2103 / 3b, Kanstul 1570CR & 1588CR, Yamaha YBL-612 RII, YBL-822G & YBL-830, Sterling 1056GHS Euphonium,
Livingston Symphony Orchestra NJ - Trombone
Bach 39, LT36B, 42BOF & 42T, King 2103 / 3b, Kanstul 1570CR & 1588CR, Yamaha YBL-612 RII, YBL-822G & YBL-830, Sterling 1056GHS Euphonium,
Livingston Symphony Orchestra NJ - Trombone
- Burgerbob
- Posts: 5157
- Joined: Mon Apr 23, 2018 8:10 pm
- Location: LA
- Contact:
Re: Yamaha Bass Trombones in Review
The valves themselves are much more modern, if you check out the cores. Larger, better ported, longer-lasting with nice tapered bearings... the list goes on. I don't know anyone that was doing anything nearly as advanced at the time, for sure.
Aidan Ritchie, LA area player and teacher
- Burgerbob
- Posts: 5157
- Joined: Mon Apr 23, 2018 8:10 pm
- Location: LA
- Contact:
Re: Yamaha Bass Trombones in Review
The tuning slides look to be the same dimensions, but Yamaha uses a different thickness of tubing and they can't be switched around. I tried!spencercarran wrote: ↑Mon Mar 06, 2023 10:16 am [
I'm curious - you mentioned the 613H is compatible with Bach 50 handslides, do the main tuning slides also line up? And did you feel a dramatic difference between a 50 slide (or any of your other Bach-tenoned slides) and the stock Yamaha slide?
And yes, the slides all feel quite different, just like they do on other horns. I actually need to try the Yamaha slide on my Bach setups, oops!
Aidan Ritchie, LA area player and teacher
-
- Posts: 809
- Joined: Sun Jul 01, 2018 11:00 am
- Location: Ludwigsburg, Germany
Re: Yamaha Bass Trombones in Review
Thanks!
I wasn’t previously aware of those aspects of the design but goes some way to explain why they perform very respectably for a pair of standard rotors.
I wasn’t previously aware of those aspects of the design but goes some way to explain why they perform very respectably for a pair of standard rotors.
-
- Posts: 1624
- Joined: Tue Jul 02, 2019 9:06 am
- Location: New Jersey
- Contact:
Re: Yamaha Bass Trombones in Review
Just think, if Bach had actually listened and not has a director of Product Development who didn't want to make any changes to Vincent Bach's designs, things like the Thayer valve and so forth may never have gotten off the ground, or at least not to the extent that they did. Stuffy valves is one complaint that I can't remember ever hearing about a Yamaha trombone, which shows how much engineering they like to put into the horns. Now if only they were better about the "design" aspect in some ways.
I will say however that the cases they used in the 1990s to early 2000s were bullet proof. I've never seen cases so well designed to support the horn by the cross brace, and that keep the slide compartment at the top. My YBL-612RII was shipped to me in nothing but the case with some tape around it, and it made it through fine.
David S. - daveyboy37 from TTF
Bach 39, LT36B, 42BOF & 42T, King 2103 / 3b, Kanstul 1570CR & 1588CR, Yamaha YBL-612 RII, YBL-822G & YBL-830, Sterling 1056GHS Euphonium,
Livingston Symphony Orchestra NJ - Trombone
Bach 39, LT36B, 42BOF & 42T, King 2103 / 3b, Kanstul 1570CR & 1588CR, Yamaha YBL-612 RII, YBL-822G & YBL-830, Sterling 1056GHS Euphonium,
Livingston Symphony Orchestra NJ - Trombone
-
- Posts: 809
- Joined: Sun Jul 01, 2018 11:00 am
- Location: Ludwigsburg, Germany
Re: Yamaha Bass Trombones in Review
This could turn out to be an expensive thread for me, might end up keeping the Yamaha 612Rii and the Holton TR-180.
- elmsandr
- Posts: 1087
- Joined: Fri Mar 23, 2018 2:43 pm
- Location: S.E. Michigan
- Contact:
Re: Yamaha Bass Trombones in Review
Not sure that goes for just the 613… back in the late 90’s I spent a significant amount of time somewhat formally benchmarking my old 50B2 (stock, but silver plated), a new Edwards, and a 622…tbonesullivan wrote: ↑Mon Mar 06, 2023 11:53 am …..
Regarding the YBL-613H S, I can echo what has been said: it plays like a Bach 50 in some ways. Some have called it the "best bach 50 that bach never built".
…
Playing wise, the 612RII can be a bit diffuse at times, and I had to work with it a lot to get a more broad "orchestral" sound, but it definitely is possible. It won't sound like a Bach 50, but it definitely can sound good.
That 622 felt and sounded more Bach-like than the Bach sometimes. Should have bought it and put it in the basement, could have saved me a lot of time after moving on from the Edwards (and adding a Bach bell to the Edwards, etc…). Played a few notes on other 622s and 822s, none have captured my attention like that earlier one… but they have been very good.
Cheers,
Andy
-
- Posts: 1624
- Joined: Tue Jul 02, 2019 9:06 am
- Location: New Jersey
- Contact:
Re: Yamaha Bass Trombones in Review
I have wanted to check out the Yeo models for a while. Unfortunately like most Yamahas I don't see them around very often. Of course, I have actually not spent any appreciable time on an actual Bach 50 that I know to be a "good" example. I have spent plenty of time on a Bach 42T and Bach LT36B, but I don't know how well that tracks to the 50.elmsandr wrote: ↑Tue Mar 07, 2023 7:28 amNot sure that goes for just the 613… back in the late 90’s I spent a significant amount of time somewhat formally benchmarking my old 50B2 (stock, but silver plated), a new Edwards, and a 622…
That 622 felt and sounded more Bach-like than the Bach sometimes. Should have bought it and put it in the basement, could have saved me a lot of time after moving on from the Edwards (and adding a Bach bell to the Edwards, etc…). Played a few notes on other 622s and 822s, none have captured my attention like that earlier one… but they have been very good.
Cheers,
Andy
The 822 would however give me a chance to finally get a single valve bass...
David S. - daveyboy37 from TTF
Bach 39, LT36B, 42BOF & 42T, King 2103 / 3b, Kanstul 1570CR & 1588CR, Yamaha YBL-612 RII, YBL-822G & YBL-830, Sterling 1056GHS Euphonium,
Livingston Symphony Orchestra NJ - Trombone
Bach 39, LT36B, 42BOF & 42T, King 2103 / 3b, Kanstul 1570CR & 1588CR, Yamaha YBL-612 RII, YBL-822G & YBL-830, Sterling 1056GHS Euphonium,
Livingston Symphony Orchestra NJ - Trombone
-
- Posts: 193
- Joined: Sun Jun 24, 2018 9:35 am
- Contact:
Re: Yamaha Bass Trombones in Review
The wrap on the 613H was inspired by (but not an exact copy of) the open wrap on Steve Norrell's Bach 50. I was studying with him when he was working with Yamaha on it.
In 1995 I bought an early Shires bass. The next day I stopped in Rayburn Music in Boston (an old college classmate was working there at the time) and tried a 613H they had in stock. The Yamaha was so close to the new Shires I just bought, but not quite, thank goodness! I have always liked the 613H the most of any Yamaha bass.
In 1995 I bought an early Shires bass. The next day I stopped in Rayburn Music in Boston (an old college classmate was working there at the time) and tried a 613H they had in stock. The Yamaha was so close to the new Shires I just bought, but not quite, thank goodness! I have always liked the 613H the most of any Yamaha bass.
Frank S. Gazda
Professor of Music, Delaware State University
Freelance Low Brass, Mid-Atlantic
www.firststatebrass.com
Professor of Music, Delaware State University
Freelance Low Brass, Mid-Atlantic
www.firststatebrass.com
-
- Posts: 1624
- Joined: Tue Jul 02, 2019 9:06 am
- Location: New Jersey
- Contact:
Re: Yamaha Bass Trombones in Review
AH! I have seen pictures of that, and yes, it is a bit distinctive with the bracing, especially on the Gb crook. If only Yamaha would do a better job of keeping tracking of this, so much digging wouldn't be necessary. Unless Yamaha wants to keep artist involvement on the down low? Not sure why they would.
David S. - daveyboy37 from TTF
Bach 39, LT36B, 42BOF & 42T, King 2103 / 3b, Kanstul 1570CR & 1588CR, Yamaha YBL-612 RII, YBL-822G & YBL-830, Sterling 1056GHS Euphonium,
Livingston Symphony Orchestra NJ - Trombone
Bach 39, LT36B, 42BOF & 42T, King 2103 / 3b, Kanstul 1570CR & 1588CR, Yamaha YBL-612 RII, YBL-822G & YBL-830, Sterling 1056GHS Euphonium,
Livingston Symphony Orchestra NJ - Trombone
- BoomtownRath
- Posts: 100
- Joined: Tue Oct 15, 2019 12:17 pm
- Location: Brakel, Netherlands
Re: Yamaha Bass Trombones in Review
Great review Aidan!! Always great when someone offers insight and opens a discussion.
I've played on a friend's 622 a couple of years back at a brass band championships on a Yeo mpc and was pleasantly surprised. Very malleable and easy to manipulate in a brass band, I prefer and get on better with a Bach but the yamaha done the job!
I've played on a friend's 622 a couple of years back at a brass band championships on a Yeo mpc and was pleasantly surprised. Very malleable and easy to manipulate in a brass band, I prefer and get on better with a Bach but the yamaha done the job!
- greenbean
- Posts: 1862
- Joined: Fri Mar 23, 2018 6:14 pm
- Location: San Francisco
Re: Yamaha Bass Trombones in Review
Thanks, Aidan!
My random comments:
--Re: Bach 50 copies. Yeah, who in their right mind would copy the valves or the wraps?...
--Re: Yamaha parts finder. Many of the parts listed are not what the model originally had; they are often the "pretty similar and currently manufactured" replacement part.
My random comments:
--Re: Bach 50 copies. Yeah, who in their right mind would copy the valves or the wraps?...
--Re: Yamaha parts finder. Many of the parts listed are not what the model originally had; they are often the "pretty similar and currently manufactured" replacement part.
Tom in San Francisco
Currently playing...
Bach Corp 16M
Many French horns
Currently playing...
Bach Corp 16M
Many French horns
- spencercarran
- Posts: 644
- Joined: Sat Oct 17, 2020 1:02 pm
- Location: Chicago
Re: Yamaha Bass Trombones in Review
How long was Norrell using the Yamaha 613H? I think he may have switched to some other brand later.tbonesullivan wrote: ↑Tue Mar 07, 2023 10:58 amAH! I have seen pictures of that, and yes, it is a bit distinctive with the bracing, especially on the Gb crook. If only Yamaha would do a better job of keeping tracking of this, so much digging wouldn't be necessary. Unless Yamaha wants to keep artist involvement on the down low? Not sure why they would.
- Burgerbob
- Posts: 5157
- Joined: Mon Apr 23, 2018 8:10 pm
- Location: LA
- Contact:
Re: Yamaha Bass Trombones in Review
Willson is what he played for a long time afterwards.spencercarran wrote: ↑Wed Mar 08, 2023 7:19 am
How long was Norrell using the Yamaha 613H? I think he may have switched to some other brand later.
Aidan Ritchie, LA area player and teacher
-
- Posts: 1130
- Joined: Fri Mar 23, 2018 7:20 am
- Location: Boston, MA, USA
- Contact:
Re: Yamaha Bass Trombones in Review
He mostly played a Bach.spencercarran wrote: ↑Wed Mar 08, 2023 7:19 am How long was Norrell using the Yamaha 613H? I think he may have switched to some other brand later.
Gabe Rice
Faculty
Boston University School of Music
Kinhaven Music School Senior Session
Bass Trombonist
Rhode Island Philharmonic Orchestra
Vermont Symphony Orchestra
Faculty
Boston University School of Music
Kinhaven Music School Senior Session
Bass Trombonist
Rhode Island Philharmonic Orchestra
Vermont Symphony Orchestra
- harrisonreed
- Posts: 5250
- Joined: Fri Aug 17, 2018 12:18 pm
- Location: Fort Riley, Kansas
- Contact:
Re: Yamaha Bass Trombones in Review
Wow, somehow I've never posted in this thread.
The Yamaha bases all require tape to be used to build up the mouthpiece shank, or a special tip diameter like Aidan mentions. The 830 is one of the worst trombones I've ever played. The side is smooth and valves are smooth, at least. But you get nothing out for your effort. You get less out for your effort if you don't use tape. No effort is worth what you get out of it with both valves depressed.
The Yamaha bases all require tape to be used to build up the mouthpiece shank, or a special tip diameter like Aidan mentions. The 830 is one of the worst trombones I've ever played. The side is smooth and valves are smooth, at least. But you get nothing out for your effort. You get less out for your effort if you don't use tape. No effort is worth what you get out of it with both valves depressed.
-
- Posts: 37
- Joined: Wed Mar 01, 2023 11:44 am
- Location: Texas
Re: Yamaha Bass Trombones in Review
If I may ask, how much did you pay for your 613 (no letter)? I paid 2500$ for my 613G which is in great condition, but I feel like that mightve been a little too much.Burgerbob wrote: ↑Sun Mar 05, 2023 10:42 am
Along comes the 613 and 613G (yellow and rose bells). These are very similar to the 612 but with independent valves in F/G or F/Gb, as far as I know they all came with both slides. They have a lightweight brass slide and a light 10 inch bell. I currently own and use a 613 regularly for commercial settings, both at Disneyland and big band playing. These are great basses, easy to play, light, by far the most modern valves of the time (mid-'80s), efficient, you name it. A broad sound with a nice color to it, these are NOT boring. They are not perfect- the ranges are not quite even. High range is not bad on these but many modern horns will have a bit more focus and ease up there. The low range is easy enough, but not in a way that makes playing Bordognis down an octave or two a fun exercise, more in a Phil Teele way instead. I've tried to use my 613 in more "classical" settings a couple times, both in trombone choir and wind ensemble- for me it fell flat, as the sound just doesn't have the depth that some other more orchestrally oriented basses do.
PS, thank you for the setup help through your lesson form and for the G&W Bob Sanders I traded you for - like I said, it's a little big for my normal playing but I'll be giving it a try for a few marching/pep band things upcoming and I think it'll do great.
-
- Posts: 1624
- Joined: Tue Jul 02, 2019 9:06 am
- Location: New Jersey
- Contact:
Re: Yamaha Bass Trombones in Review
Only the 613H / 830, and other models using that specific leadpipe do. I have not heard that the 622/822 have that issue, and the 611/612/620 basses definitely do not. My mouthpieces insert about 3-4mm less into my 612 as they did into my 613H and my 830 Xeno. The 612 also has pretty much the standard insertion depth I have seen on other basses I have tried out over the years.harrisonreed wrote: ↑Wed Mar 08, 2023 7:34 am The Yamaha bases all require tape to be used to build up the mouthpiece shank, or a special tip diameter like Aidan mentions.
I haven't had any issues with any mouthpieces not working correctly in either the 613H or the 830. I seem to recall King basses such as the duo gravis also had a larger receiver, which was part of the design, intended to work with a Bach 1 1/2G mouthpiece. Has anyone ever asked King bass trombone designer George McCracken about the reason for the leadpipe being that way? I'm fairly certain it was a conscious design decision, just as it was with the Yamaha trombones.
David S. - daveyboy37 from TTF
Bach 39, LT36B, 42BOF & 42T, King 2103 / 3b, Kanstul 1570CR & 1588CR, Yamaha YBL-612 RII, YBL-822G & YBL-830, Sterling 1056GHS Euphonium,
Livingston Symphony Orchestra NJ - Trombone
Bach 39, LT36B, 42BOF & 42T, King 2103 / 3b, Kanstul 1570CR & 1588CR, Yamaha YBL-612 RII, YBL-822G & YBL-830, Sterling 1056GHS Euphonium,
Livingston Symphony Orchestra NJ - Trombone
- greenbean
- Posts: 1862
- Joined: Fri Mar 23, 2018 6:14 pm
- Location: San Francisco
Re: Yamaha Bass Trombones in Review
None of the ones I have played on had an unusual receiver - 611, 612, 620, and 622. I guess it is not *all* Yamahas.harrisonreed wrote: ↑Wed Mar 08, 2023 7:34 am ...The Yamaha bases all require tape to be used to build up the mouthpiece shank...
Tom in San Francisco
Currently playing...
Bach Corp 16M
Many French horns
Currently playing...
Bach Corp 16M
Many French horns
-
- Posts: 193
- Joined: Sun Jun 24, 2018 9:35 am
- Contact:
Re: Yamaha Bass Trombones in Review
GabrielRice wrote: ↑Wed Mar 08, 2023 7:21 amHe mostly played a Bach.spencercarran wrote: ↑Wed Mar 08, 2023 7:19 am How long was Norrell using the Yamaha 613H? I think he may have switched to some other brand later.
Yeah, even after partnering with Yamaha Steve still played his Bach 50 with in-line open wraps by Langolier (? not sure if I'm getting that right) on most things. He was still playing it in 2016 when I saw him play the Kleinhammer Sonata at ITF in NYC.
Frank S. Gazda
Professor of Music, Delaware State University
Freelance Low Brass, Mid-Atlantic
www.firststatebrass.com
Professor of Music, Delaware State University
Freelance Low Brass, Mid-Atlantic
www.firststatebrass.com
- greenbean
- Posts: 1862
- Joined: Fri Mar 23, 2018 6:14 pm
- Location: San Francisco
Re: Yamaha Bass Trombones in Review
Marc Langelier, a brass tech in San Francisco in the early 80s
Tom in San Francisco
Currently playing...
Bach Corp 16M
Many French horns
Currently playing...
Bach Corp 16M
Many French horns
- JohnL
- Posts: 1905
- Joined: Fri Mar 23, 2018 9:01 am
- Contact:
Re: Yamaha Bass Trombones in Review
The King large-shank receiver predates George McCracken's involvement; it's a holdover from the Symphony model (1410/1480). Not only is it larger that the "standard", it also seems to be a different taper (thus the tendency of Morse taper mouthpieces to wobble).tbonesullivan wrote: ↑Wed Mar 08, 2023 10:08 amI seem to recall King basses such as the duo gravis also had a larger receiver, which was part of the design, intended to work with a Bach 1 1/2G mouthpiece. Has anyone ever asked King bass trombone designer George McCracken about the reason for the leadpipe being that way?
-
- Posts: 1624
- Joined: Tue Jul 02, 2019 9:06 am
- Location: New Jersey
- Contact:
Re: Yamaha Bass Trombones in Review
Reading elsewhere, I saw that it was potentially an attempt to have a more continuous taper, and there is actually supposed to be a "step" in the leadpipe that meets up with the bottom of the mouthpiece? Never really had the time to investigate one.JohnL wrote: ↑Sun May 14, 2023 10:23 amThe King large-shank receiver predates George McCracken's involvement; it's a holdover from the Symphony model (1410/1480). Not only is it larger that the "standard", it also seems to be a different taper (thus the tendency of Morse taper mouthpieces to wobble).
David S. - daveyboy37 from TTF
Bach 39, LT36B, 42BOF & 42T, King 2103 / 3b, Kanstul 1570CR & 1588CR, Yamaha YBL-612 RII, YBL-822G & YBL-830, Sterling 1056GHS Euphonium,
Livingston Symphony Orchestra NJ - Trombone
Bach 39, LT36B, 42BOF & 42T, King 2103 / 3b, Kanstul 1570CR & 1588CR, Yamaha YBL-612 RII, YBL-822G & YBL-830, Sterling 1056GHS Euphonium,
Livingston Symphony Orchestra NJ - Trombone
-
- Posts: 15
- Joined: Fri Sep 21, 2018 6:03 pm
Re: Yamaha Bass Trombones in Review
Great thread! I am nothing more than an interloper and dabbler from the tuba world, but I love my 613H. I originally owned a Getzen 1062fdr, and I find the 613H to be much more my speed, even after several years of playing the Getzen. I was originally inspired to purchase the Yamaha after seeing one played by Doug Purviance (who remains one of the most impressive bass bone players I've seen in person).
- Burgerbob
- Posts: 5157
- Joined: Mon Apr 23, 2018 8:10 pm
- Location: LA
- Contact:
Re: Yamaha Bass Trombones in Review
Thought I'd add a couple more, and perhaps the owner of one can chime in as well:
8130G: This is a Japan-only, pre-Xeno, Custom model based on the 613/613G. It's got some differences- the one I played has a heavier bell, snakes on the tuning slide(!!), gold plating, some changes in the slide, and a different leadpipe. Otherwise it's very similar to the normal model. Basically, it is everything the 613 already was (easy to play, good ergonomics, good valves, etc) and fixes all the issues (high range being ok, but not great, more weight to the sound, etc). Amazing horn. In large contrast to
835: This is the new Xeno, replacing the 830. Some linkage changes, rose tuning slide, and some other things I haven't caught yet. Also available with a screwbell. In all honesty, the one I played at NAMM felt just like a pretty ok 830. Similar blow, sound, everything. I have played 830s that were better. The 8130 above is hands, shoulders, meters above the 835 in every way.
8130G: This is a Japan-only, pre-Xeno, Custom model based on the 613/613G. It's got some differences- the one I played has a heavier bell, snakes on the tuning slide(!!), gold plating, some changes in the slide, and a different leadpipe. Otherwise it's very similar to the normal model. Basically, it is everything the 613 already was (easy to play, good ergonomics, good valves, etc) and fixes all the issues (high range being ok, but not great, more weight to the sound, etc). Amazing horn. In large contrast to
835: This is the new Xeno, replacing the 830. Some linkage changes, rose tuning slide, and some other things I haven't caught yet. Also available with a screwbell. In all honesty, the one I played at NAMM felt just like a pretty ok 830. Similar blow, sound, everything. I have played 830s that were better. The 8130 above is hands, shoulders, meters above the 835 in every way.
Aidan Ritchie, LA area player and teacher
-
- Posts: 1624
- Joined: Tue Jul 02, 2019 9:06 am
- Location: New Jersey
- Contact:
Re: Yamaha Bass Trombones in Review
I've seen a few of the 8130G (or maybe OG?) and that had a traditional F wrap and open G/Gb Wrap. There also was the 813UG, which looks like an evolved 613G.
I don't quite understand how Yamaha works in Japan, but it does appear that they can be custom ordered to some extent, both with the basses and the tenors.
I don't quite understand how Yamaha works in Japan, but it does appear that they can be custom ordered to some extent, both with the basses and the tenors.
David S. - daveyboy37 from TTF
Bach 39, LT36B, 42BOF & 42T, King 2103 / 3b, Kanstul 1570CR & 1588CR, Yamaha YBL-612 RII, YBL-822G & YBL-830, Sterling 1056GHS Euphonium,
Livingston Symphony Orchestra NJ - Trombone
Bach 39, LT36B, 42BOF & 42T, King 2103 / 3b, Kanstul 1570CR & 1588CR, Yamaha YBL-612 RII, YBL-822G & YBL-830, Sterling 1056GHS Euphonium,
Livingston Symphony Orchestra NJ - Trombone
- IdoMeshulam
- Posts: 69
- Joined: Tue Aug 20, 2019 5:33 pm
- Location: Los Angeles
Re: Yamaha Bass Trombones in Review
I’m the owner of the gold plated 8130G that Aidan mentioned. I’ve been looking for one for quite a while and finally found this one on eBay a little over a month ago. It has some crazy mods on it that appear to be factory made (thicker outer slide brace and tuning slide snakes), same with the gold plating, it’s very high quality so I’m pretty sure it was done in house. Absolutely amazing horn! I also own a 613G and despite the 2 horns looking very similar they both have completely different playing characteristics despite feeling very similar to the player.
My 8130G is a lot heavier than my 613G and therefore plays a lot more “orchestral”, the sound is darker and has a super warm quality to it, kinda like a good Bach 50 but just more of everything. The feedback behind the bell is not as good as on the 613G but I’m used to heavier bells from my smaller horns so it’s not that big of a deal for me. Overall It seems to be a very good mix between the best qualities of the 613G (nice open feel, responsiveness and big spreading sound) and the 613H (even ranges and more weight to the sound) rolled into one horn and I absolutely love everything about it!
The leadpipe on it is actually interesting, unlike other Yamaha basses it doesn’t “swallow” the mouthpiece, the insertion depth is about the same as a modern Edwards or a Shires. One other thing that seems to make a huge difference is the actual quality of brass. I took it to Brad Close for some minor dent removal and according to him, he had to apply a lot more force than usual, said that the metal is not as soft as “normal” Yamahas and seems to be of much higher quality.
I did get to play the new 835, nothing interesting. I owned an 830 for about 8 years, played about 8 of them and I honestly can’t say if one is better than the other. Felt pretty boring, wasn’t as open as the older models that I’m used to and despite being very “not insulting” in every way I can think of, didn’t make me wanna play it for more than a few minutes. The older 613H is better in pretty much every way if you’re looking for a Bach style Yamaha.
As for the 813UG, this is the missing link between the 613H and the 830. It was actually marketed in Japan under the Xeno line and shares a lot of its components with both models. I’d definitely be interested in trying one out, it’s the only independent Yamaha bass I haven't played on.
My 8130G is a lot heavier than my 613G and therefore plays a lot more “orchestral”, the sound is darker and has a super warm quality to it, kinda like a good Bach 50 but just more of everything. The feedback behind the bell is not as good as on the 613G but I’m used to heavier bells from my smaller horns so it’s not that big of a deal for me. Overall It seems to be a very good mix between the best qualities of the 613G (nice open feel, responsiveness and big spreading sound) and the 613H (even ranges and more weight to the sound) rolled into one horn and I absolutely love everything about it!
The leadpipe on it is actually interesting, unlike other Yamaha basses it doesn’t “swallow” the mouthpiece, the insertion depth is about the same as a modern Edwards or a Shires. One other thing that seems to make a huge difference is the actual quality of brass. I took it to Brad Close for some minor dent removal and according to him, he had to apply a lot more force than usual, said that the metal is not as soft as “normal” Yamahas and seems to be of much higher quality.
I did get to play the new 835, nothing interesting. I owned an 830 for about 8 years, played about 8 of them and I honestly can’t say if one is better than the other. Felt pretty boring, wasn’t as open as the older models that I’m used to and despite being very “not insulting” in every way I can think of, didn’t make me wanna play it for more than a few minutes. The older 613H is better in pretty much every way if you’re looking for a Bach style Yamaha.
As for the 813UG, this is the missing link between the 613H and the 830. It was actually marketed in Japan under the Xeno line and shares a lot of its components with both models. I’d definitely be interested in trying one out, it’s the only independent Yamaha bass I haven't played on.
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
- harrisonreed
- Posts: 5250
- Joined: Fri Aug 17, 2018 12:18 pm
- Location: Fort Riley, Kansas
- Contact:
Re: Yamaha Bass Trombones in Review
Dang there is one for sale in decent condition for $2400 in Tokyo right now. (Sans snakes and gold)
- Burgerbob
- Posts: 5157
- Joined: Mon Apr 23, 2018 8:10 pm
- Location: LA
- Contact:
Re: Yamaha Bass Trombones in Review
uhhh... wanna buy it for me and ship it over?harrisonreed wrote: ↑Mon May 22, 2023 4:07 pm Dang there is one for sale in decent condition for $2400 in Tokyo right now. (Sans snakes and gold)
Aidan Ritchie, LA area player and teacher
- harrisonreed
- Posts: 5250
- Joined: Fri Aug 17, 2018 12:18 pm
- Location: Fort Riley, Kansas
- Contact:
Re: Yamaha Bass Trombones in Review
That would be one heck of a present lol! If I wasn't moving in two weeks I'd buy it for myself!
- Burgerbob
- Posts: 5157
- Joined: Mon Apr 23, 2018 8:10 pm
- Location: LA
- Contact:
Re: Yamaha Bass Trombones in Review
I mean, I'd pay you for it! Not as a gift haha.
Aidan Ritchie, LA area player and teacher