TromboneChat

I'm teaching my elementary student. I am studying Base Trombone for teaching.
I'm looking for sonata songs or concertos that I can start with, 'Sachse Konzert' or 'McCarty Sonate' seems too difficult for a child.
I'm looking for the right song for the kid. What song would be good?

If I may ask a dumb question: why are you teaching an elementary school student bass trombone? Shouldn't he be learning the basic 7 positions (or maybe using the trigger for 6 and 7 if his arms are too short to reach them on the open horn).

Most beginning solos are good for any trombone player since they don't go too high and tend to reside inside the bass clef. Not a bad place for a student who wants to specialize in the lower register.

You should not start an elementary student on bass trombone or with advanced material. I would find a basic beginner book (I see you are in South Korea with your location, oftentimes in the US I would a book called Essential Elements) that just goes over basic note reading and one-two line songs at most.

Good fundamentals and a basic understanding of music will go so much farther in the long run for the majority of students than forcing harder material to start with. With the latter method you might get an impressive performance or occasional stand out student, but the burn-out rate is incredible high, and the temptation to forget that music is an art that is a shared experience for an audience is also a danger.

BGuttman wrote: ↑Wed Mar 01, 2023 9:45 am If I may ask a dumb question: why are you teaching an elementary school student bass trombone? Shouldn't he be learning the basic 7 positions (or maybe using the trigger for 6 and 7 if his arms are too short to reach them on the open horn).

Most beginning solos are good for any trombone player since they don't go too high and tend to reside inside the bass clef. Not a bad place for a student who wants to specialize in the lower register.

If this person hadn't reached position 7, I wouldn't have taught base trombone. But this child is in the fourth grade of elementary school. He is 68.8976 Inch tall and his arms are over 7 positions enough to remove the tube.

Do you mean full, honest-to-goodness bass trombone, with all the weight, or a lighter tenor with an F-attachment?

There are plenty of posts on this forum about repetitive use injuries for bass trombonists.

Muscles and bones are still developing in elementary school children.

I would recommend transcriptions of tunes the student already likes and knows (popular music should provide plenty of choices.) This will leave the student enough "processing power" in the brain to follow advice you provide about holding the horn and taking breaks to avoid injury and improper development. This will also leave "processing power" to address the challenges of trigger positions without struggling with other technique challenges at the same time.

I strongly recommend taking the repetitive use injury challenges seriously. I suspect it will be VERY difficult to convince an elementary school student to do protective exercises along with the "fun" playing exercises.

boneagain wrote: ↑Thu Mar 02, 2023 5:26 am Do you mean full, honest-to-goodness bass trombone, with all the weight, or a lighter tenor with an F-attachment?

There are plenty of posts on this forum about repetitive use injuries for bass trombonists.

Muscles and bones are still developing in elementary school children.

I would recommend transcriptions of tunes the student already likes and knows (popular music should provide plenty of choices.) This will leave the student enough "processing power" in the brain to follow advice you provide about holding the horn and taking breaks to avoid injury and improper development. This will also leave "processing power" to address the challenges of trigger positions without struggling with other technique challenges at the same time.

I strongly recommend taking the repetitive use injury challenges seriously. I suspect it will be VERY difficult to convince an elementary school student to do protective exercises along with the "fun" playing exercises.

That's how I first educated my child. Then the child and his parents want to send him to art middle school. I'm also embarrassed by the sudden change.

Ludain wrote: ↑Thu Mar 02, 2023 7:12 am That's how I first educated my child. Then the child and his parents want to send him to art middle school. I'm also embarrassed by the sudden change.

Is that "art" as in "music, drama, dance, visual" or art as in "drawing and sculpture?"

I ask because I wonder if you need more advanced materials for this pending middle school.

Hello all .
Hello Ludain .

Besides the good answers already written above , in my opinion it would not be a good idea to give to a young kid a large bore tenor with F valve either .

I think that is not matter how the kid can be strong , ecc . To me , for several years , would be better that young students plays with small/medium bore horns . This helps tone production , slide technique , clear articolations , ecc .

Also , as you know for shure , playing in the low register ( valves and pedals) is pretty demanding for the chops , so it would be better to wait until the student' embouchure is well -trained , before let him play a bass trbn . In addition , also a small bass mpc like a Bach 3G will be difficult to handle , for a kid .

Regards
Giancarlo

Sachse and McCarty are about as accessible as bass trombone repertoire comes. If the child is not ready to attempt those, they are not ready for bass trombone at all.

Ludain wrote: ↑Wed Mar 01, 2023 10:48 pm If this person hadn't reached position 7, I wouldn't have taught base trombone. But this child is in the fourth grade of elementary school. He is 68.8976 Inch tall and his arms are over 7 positions enough to remove the tube.

OK, so it's a tall child. Still a child! Still physically developing, may or may not be strong enough yet to handle a large bass trombone, and certainly does not have the required technique to do so well. Keep them on a tenor trombone and be happy that their arms are long enough to use the full slide.

Unless the student is a young prodigy who has mastered a straight tenor and is down on his knees begging for a bass, I can't think of a faster way to turn him off to playing trombone.

boneagain wrote: ↑Thu Mar 02, 2023 5:26 am Do you mean full, honest-to-goodness bass trombone, with all the weight, or a lighter tenor with an F-attachment?

I'm wondering if boneagain has hit the nail on the head with this question. Are we looking at a language/nomenclature issue? Even if a young trombonist showed exceptional (possibly even prodigy-level) skill, I'd certainly be more likely to move them to a symphonic tenor (i.e., the class of trombone that's used for the principal chair in an orchestra and is much more likely than a bass trombone to be used by feature soloists). A bass trombone is a rather specialized tool, after all.

TROLL

JohnL wrote: ↑Fri Mar 03, 2023 11:58 am

boneagain wrote: ↑Thu Mar 02, 2023 5:26 am Do you mean full, honest-to-goodness bass trombone, with all the weight, or a lighter tenor with an F-attachment?

I'm wondering if boneagain has hit the nail on the head with this question. Are we looking at a language/nomenclature issue? Even if a young trombonist showed exceptional (possibly even prodigy-level) skill, I'd certainly be more likely to move them to a symphonic tenor (i.e., the class of trombone that's used for the principal chair in an orchestra and is much more likely than a bass trombone to be used by feature soloists). A bass trombone is a rather specialized tool, after all.

It appears that the OP is indeed referring to a true bass trombone. His profile lists his S.E.Shires Bass Trombone & Griego GP6 mouthpiece. (The GP6 is Griego's Gerry Pagano version of a Schilke 60 - definitely a full-sized bass trombone piece, not a large tenor piece.) So he knows what a bass trombone is.

That still doesn't mean that one should hand an "elementary student" a bass trombone, no matter how tall (5'9") he is - for all the reasons already noted here. Wait until the student matures, at least 14-15 years old or so and has played trombone for several years.

The general feeling is start a new player on a small tenor bone and small mouthpiece. Bass trombone no earlier than high school.

Fridge

Lately I've seen multiple kids in middle school bands playing tubas. They are heavier and have a larger bore.

I started my son on a small bore tenor. I taught him to play myself and his band teacher has always been impressed with his skill. This is his third year, and he is 12 years old. His band teacher suggested moving to a step up horn. We worked with a brass expert at Schmitt Music. I was all set to get a medium bore f attachment horn for him. But when he tried the large bore horns he was able to get a better tone and fuller sound. He ended up with a Q series Shires. Every time he practices with his horn I'm amazed at how much better he sounds.

I've also talked to multiple music teachers in my area and they all agree it was a good move. I won't say to start all kids on large bore tenor or bass trombones, but if the kid is ready then why not.

sstelmack wrote: ↑Sat Mar 11, 2023 6:07 pm Lately I've seen multiple kids in middle school bands playing tubas. They are heavier and have a larger bore.

I wanted to focus on this little bit...

I started on tuba in 6th grade with no prior experience, and didn't get my hands on a real bass trombone until 9th grade. I had no trouble playing tuba despite the large bore and weight, no matter the music thrown at me. That's because the air needed to make a tuba go is generally different from trombones: large volume, low pressure vs a more medium volume and pressure. (Trumpets are low volume, high pressure for contrast.) They also have a much larger mouthpiece.

Bass trombone, on the other hand, even as a fairly advanced freshman, was incredibly taxing. And I wasn't small (6'2" at the time, I think). The extra air pressure needed to go along with such a large volume of air was difficult to work through. I think music choice was a factor there (staying in the staff was rough as a tubist) as the next year in high school the music changed drastically (more trigger work) and my chops were much happier.

A 4th grader on bass trombone?? Please don't. Even if the kid's begging to play it, they're going to regret it at that early an age. It's heavy and awkward to hold to go along with the air requirements. So, a different thought for the OP: Maybe see how the student can get around on a tuba instead? (For reference I was about the student's height in 6th and 7th grade. That's a big 4th grader!) That can help reinforce the ear for low register work when they are physically ready to handle a bass trombone.

I guess my experience was different. I started on tenor. Then doubled on bass. My junior year I played the sousaphone in marching band. I thought the bass trombone was a lot easier to play. But back then I was in sports and could run for miles so my lungs could handle it.

Sousaphone's a different beast; the lopsided weight on one shoulder and combining with marching/dancing (depending on the band) becomes much more of an athletic endeavor. Plus if you're used to trombone musically, adjusting all your muscle memory down an octave can be challenging.

Elementary school students should also not be playing sousaphone, of course.