TromboneChat

So before my shop got hit with COVID, Rsv, then Flu-A within a 5 week period, I meant to post this up. A little back story is I hate crossbars on trombones. I mean really can't stand them. For years I've been convinced there's got to be a way to ditch them all together, in exchange for a more elegant solution. Well, this is only the working prototype, but here's the more elegant solution.

I opted to use the F wrap as a stressed member, creating plenty of rigidity. On the production models the two mounting points will be done a bit nicer, particularly the bottom mount will have a much larger flange. That being said, I love it! There's some interesting differences mounting the bell this way, both in the feedback from the instrument, and the way it resonates.

More to follow, but for now here's some photos of the beast. Planning to offer valvesets with this attachment method for tenor and bass Shires modular very soon.

Thats very elegant ! Love lightweight bell sections

Very nice

Looks very nice!
But I am concerned with the stability of the bell section during use, especially with the Hagmann valve.
I feel that valve is notoriously fragile! Even more so without the main brace and rear cross brace on the tuning slide ferrules.
Looks like it could easily twist when using a mute, and put pressure on the incoming valve knuckle from the slide receiver!
And nothing to prevent twist along the main tuning slide axis!

I agree to minimally brace onto the bell, but there has to be some kind of structure to ensure stability.

Bonearzt wrote: ↑Tue Jan 03, 2023 6:13 am I feel that valve is notoriously fragile!

Yeah, given that you can lock up a Hagmann with pretty minimal finger pressure to the casing, this seems risky. I know Thein has done similar things, and I'm sure they can survive sensible handling by consenting adults, but it might not be mass market ready. In any case, very nice looking work!

Bonearzt wrote: ↑Tue Jan 03, 2023 6:13 am Looks very nice!
But I am concerned with the stability of the bell section during use, especially with the Hagmann valve.
I feel that valve is notoriously fragile! Even more so without the main brace and rear cross brace on the tuning slide ferrules.
Looks like it could easily twist when using a mute, and put pressure on the incoming valve knuckle from the slide receiver!
And nothing to prevent twist along the main tuning slide axis!

I agree to minimally brace onto the bell, but there has to be some kind of structure to ensure stability.

There's bracing to both the top and bottom of the valve, it's actually quite rigid (marked in red). The top one is .375" solid brass cut to fit the gooseneck ferrule and f tube.

Interesting way to provide a pivot point for the F valve actuator. You also don't have to worry about the top of your thumb rubbing on a brace or attachment point. How about some videos? Thanks.

I guess this could work. Thein makes a similar bracing to connect the bell to the valve section, but they use a lot of braces to stabilaze the valvesection itself. I tried to eliminate 2 braces, but they are all needed to get the Thein valve section working.
It would be interesting to try out your concept Jeff I guess it‘s good

walldaja wrote: ↑Tue Jan 03, 2023 8:59 am Interesting way to provide a pivot point for the F valve actuator. You also don't have to worry about the top of your thumb rubbing on a brace or attachment point. How about some videos? Thanks.

Wish I could take credit, but hagmann offers a linkage kit for this. I did, however, custom design the lever saddle and have it sinter printed on bronze. The part I like most is it wraps completely around the receiver, so super secure with a drop of solder. I also changed where the stop plate is drilled to shorten the throw. No reason a hagmann can't be short throw.

Once my lungs recover from the latest illness I'll gladly shoot some video, it's really fun to play!

meine wrote: ↑Tue Jan 03, 2023 11:00 am I guess this could work. Thein makes a similar bracing to connect the bell to the valve section, but they use a lot of braces to stabilaze the valvesection itself. I tried to eliminate 2 braces, but they are all needed to get the Thein valve section working.
It would be interesting to try out your concept Jeff I guess it‘s good

It's honestly rigid enough, sometimes it's not about how many braces, more so the correctly placement. With 2 valves this mounting method would be even more rock solid.

This is an elegant solution! I'd love to try it out sometime.

Have you compared weight between bared and non-bared horns?

walldaja wrote: ↑Tue Jan 03, 2023 8:59 am Interesting way to provide a pivot point for the F valve actuator. You also don't have to worry about the top of your thumb rubbing on a brace or attachment point. How about some videos? Thanks.

That’s also significant for those of us suffering from arthritis. In my specific case, I find that I use my index finger more often than my thumb when operating an F valve. Getting the traditional bell brace completely out of the way would make a huge improvement in this area.

Looks really wonderful, and I'm sure you'll have the stability issues worked out. Good luck. Gotta love a lighter weight horn.

Kudos for the concept and design…….very innovative! I really want to embrace this design, but I am also in the “slightly skeptical camp” about the structure and rigidity. Especially since I have so many trombones come through the shop in which the entire bell section is twisted……even with the traditional cross bracing!

Obviously, this is a design that would only be used by advanced or professional players. For students, it could create so many problems……there is more open access for tubing to get dents because there are no cross braces to stop blows from foreign objects from multiple angles. Anyway, I would like to hear if the structure holds up and the Hagmann valve is free of issues after the instrument has been used for several months by a pro.

As a builder of custom horns, I sincerely appreciate what you have done here. I am well aware that a project like this involves a lot of trial and error……which translates to a lot of time. I also know that you are probably putting out your own money for a project that has no guarantee of success.

Now for the questions that I am really want to ask…… Did you look at the option of a rotary or axial valve with the bracing design? Also, have you investigated other valve levers……possibly mounted directly to the F-attachment tubing? It seems to me that if this type of bracing works, there is a whole new world of trombone design could be started.

Crazy4Tbone86 wrote: ↑Sun Jan 08, 2023 8:36 am Kudos for the concept and design…….very innovative! I really want to embrace this design, but I am also in the “slightly skeptical camp” about the structure and rigidity. Especially since I have so many trombones come through the shop in which the entire bell section is twisted……even with the traditional cross bracing!

Obviously, this is a design that would only be used by advanced or professional players. For students, it could create so many problems……there is more open access for tubing to get dents because there are no cross braces to stop blows from foreign objects from multiple angles. Anyway, I would like to hear if the structure holds up and the Hagmann valve is free of issues after the instrument has been used for several months by a pro.

As a builder of custom horns, I sincerely appreciate what you have done here. I am well aware that a project like this involves a lot of trial and error……which translates to a lot of time. I also know that you are probably putting out your own money for a project that has no guarantee of success.

Now for the questions that I am really want to ask…… Did you look at the option of a rotary or axial valve with the bracing design? Also, have you investigated other valve levers……possibly mounted directly to the F-attachment tubing? It seems to me that if this type of bracing works, there is a whole new world of trombone design could be started.

So yes, the important thing to emphasize here is this is solely the proof of concept, not by any means a final production model. In other words, this is an answer to the question of whether there's something worth pursuing here past what has been done. Based on how it plays, the answer is most definitely yes. Unfortunately I'm going to need a couple of weeks before I'm in any kind of shape to play it more extensively, but it is immediately apparent there's something interesting going on by not having the cross bars.

Will more rigidity added to the F wrap change the benefits from this mounting design? I'm inclined to say no. I already have a short list of options to make that more doable, where the horn will handle more abuse. With a second valve the options also grow.

As for the question I've been asked a few times, can this be done with other valve designs, the answer is absolutely. I already have a customer who wants me to do it with a caidex valve for his Shires tenor. Part of the requirements is it has to handle a bucket mute, so a lot of the questions on strength will be answered in short order. I will absolutely post the project as it unfolds.

And for who foots the bill for all the time and parts, ya, all on me. No one is paying me to do their R&D work, but it's honestly my favorite part of the field. Maybe one day one of the big dogs will make me an offer to just be a mad scientist all day

LIBrassCo wrote: ↑Sun Jan 08, 2023 12:57 pm I already have a customer who wants me to do it with a caidex valve for his Shires tenor. Part of the requirements is it has to handle a bucket mute, so a lot of the questions on strength will be answered in short order.

Suggest that he use a Softone (neoprene fabric) mute instead of a bell-bending Jo-Ral or a bell-marring Humes & Berg (or even an Eazy Bucket) bucket mute. Easy on and off with no damage, good sound.

Posaunus wrote: ↑Fri Jan 13, 2023 10:54 am

LIBrassCo wrote: ↑Sun Jan 08, 2023 12:57 pm I already have a customer who wants me to do it with a caidex valve for his Shires tenor. Part of the requirements is it has to handle a bucket mute, so a lot of the questions on strength will be answered in short order.

Suggest that he use a Softone (neoprene fabric) mute instead of a bell-bending Jo-Ral or a bell-marring Humes & Berg (or even an Eazy Bucket) bucket mute. Easy on and off with no damage, good sound.

I'd agree, but I honestly have no idea what he uses. Either way, it will be interesting to build.

I still can't really tell the difference between a bucket mute and stonelined cup. Other than one being far easier to use.

Cup mute: hum while forming your mouth as if to make an (English) “R” sound.

Bucket mute: hum while forming a “B” sound (yes, the air won’t be able to escape so you can only do it for maybe one beat

While we're on the subject of elegant ways to mount a bell, here's the bell mounting system on my Stephen Terry large bore tenor circa 1980, purportedly custom built by Terry (who was a builder at Benge) for LA Symphony bass trombonist Jeff Reynolds.

The pressure applied to the bell stem by the four rubber push-in bumpers that support the stem can be adjusted by a thumb screw that increases or reduces the diameter of the support ring. The diameter can even be increased to the point that the bell stem floats just free of the rubber bumpers for maximum resonance.

At some point I will get the horn out of storage and take better images that show the thumb screw. These are photos from the seller that I just happen to have in my download folder.

Very innovative stuff, especially considering that it was dreamed up over 40 years ago.

Now thats cool

Looks like a very stout design to me. The only thing I can think to make it stiffer would be to put a half twist in the section so that the tubes form an X brace, then it would be a fully triangulated space frame. The triangular strut to the receiver looks like a good idea, too, a weak spot.

Sesquitone might have comment, perhaps on section relative bore, too.

The works a bit rought, but I get the intended concept. I'm not sure having a rubber mounted bell with a tiny contact area is going to pan out, but fun experiment regardless. Stormvi does something conceptually similar with their horns, using a sleeve for the lower mount the bell passes through.

Since this is a very distant side project I haven't had a chance to do much with it, but I did add a little bracing. Still have to redesign the bottom bell mount, which I'm thinking will be part of a 3d printed brace making that and the two small braces right next to it one whole piece. At any rate, at this point it's extremely rigid, and plays great.

So the bell I've been waiting for came in today. Freshly made Bach 45 bell with an 8.5" diameter will round this valve section out as my version of a tenor. Ideally will be a nice big and dark sound, much more so that the typical symphonic tenor.

LIBrassCo wrote: ↑Thu May 18, 2023 11:55 pm So the bell I've been waiting for came in today. Freshly made Bach 45 bell with an 8.5" diameter will round this valve section out as my version of a tenor. Ideally will be a nice big and dark sound, much more so that the typical symphonic tenor.

Available from Bach ?

Tbarh wrote: ↑Fri May 19, 2023 12:01 am

LIBrassCo wrote: ↑Thu May 18, 2023 11:55 pm So the bell I've been waiting for came in today. Freshly made Bach 45 bell with an 8.5" diameter will round this valve section out as my version of a tenor. Ideally will be a nice big and dark sound, much more so that the typical symphonic tenor.

Available from Bach ?

Nope, someone outside of Bach is spinning them. I can't confirm it's the same mandrel, but I compared it to one that came from Bach, and it checks out.

LIBrassCo wrote: ↑Fri May 19, 2023 12:10 am

Nope, someone outside of Bach is spinning them. I can't confirm it's the same mandrel, but I compared it to one that came from Bach, and it checks out.

Very cool!! Was this a one off production or are they available for sale?

I think a lot of people would hop on a 45 bell, myself included!

I'm pretty sure they're available to the general public, but I will double check before posting more info. I had to ask specifically for it to spun to 8.5" rather than 9", but that was the only special accomodation. Was able to get a few notes through it, and am elated that thus far my concept for this bell is very valid. With a bass tuning slide crook, and some careful attention to nail all the tapers, everything slots right, and no wonky partials (or notes even). The sound is beautifully dark/rich as a tenor, but has a lot of the qualities I enjoy in the sound of a bass. Ideally it would be right at home sandwiched between a large symphonic tenor and a bass, or playing trombone 5/6 in an octet.

Just a small update, I was just intently pondering if there was a more elegant way to handle the mounting that would yield a stronger/simpler configuration, and ended up with this. Extremely happy with the end result, and have been playing it daily for a bit. Only thing I have left to do is change out the bottom lock nut to match the top.

Looks great ! Love the concept !

What's going on with the rear modular mount hardware and the large brass ferrule?

Tbarh wrote: ↑Fri May 19, 2023 12:01 am

LIBrassCo wrote: ↑Thu May 18, 2023 11:55 pm So the bell I've been waiting for came in today. Freshly made Bach 45 bell with an 8.5" diameter will round this valve section out as my version of a tenor. Ideally will be a nice big and dark sound, much more so that the typical symphonic tenor.

Available from Bach ?

https://www.omalleyhorns.com/products/trombone-bells

Blabberbucket wrote: ↑Sun Oct 29, 2023 8:53 pm What's going on with the rear modular mount hardware and the large brass ferrule?

Just a little integrated weight, nothing crazy