TromboneChat

My Bach 42's slide has a problem, the mouthpiece receiver has been chopped, 'bored down,' my gearhead friend said. To paint the picture, I can see the top of the leadpipe, and my mouthpiece sits lower than it normally would.

The intention was probably to open up the horn. But the horn has been opened up too much and high notes are a bit harder to hit, G4 in particular sounds like a dying dog, but Bb4 is fine, curiously. The mid and low register is nice, but valved low notes feel like I need a bit more resistance, although I have not really worked on my low range.

In addition, the horn plays sharper, although I might be getting used to that and playing flatter to compensate, for better of for worse.

Is this a common mod? Should I get this fixed (I really want to)? Should i just get it repaired with a new stock leadpipe installed? Should I make this a push fit or a threaded modular configuration? Do I just get a brand new OEM slide or custom slide? I found that the Horn Guys sell a Bach slide with three threaded leadpipes, this seems like a great deal? What do I dooooooooo?!

That sounds more like a botched removal attempt than a purposeful modification.

That leadpipe is ruined. Have it removed and replaced.

What Gabe said.

If for some reason you can’t get the work done right away, you might try shimming the mouthpiece shank with plumbers’ tape to adjust the mp insertion depth back to normal.

Going with interchangeable pipes would be a good idea. At least wait a while before having the new pipe soldered so you can see how it plays.

Can you post some pictures, please.

Yes, photos are needed. I have to wonder if the cork barrel assembly needs to be replaced.

I will post photos soon!

We definitely need some photos to diagnose this. If the previous owner ground everything down, the mouthpiece should “sit higher” in the receiver. You claim that the mouthpiece “sits lower” in the leadpipe /receiver. Thus, it could be that there is no leadpipe in there at all.

When you say that you see the leadpipe, you could just be seeing the inner slide tube, which could be tapered out to fit properly in the brace flange that the cork barrel wraps around.

The fix on your slide could be very simple. It might be that all you need is a leadpipe plugged in there and you are set. Let’s get some pictures so we can make a determination.

I have a feeling it's a typical Bach reamed out leadpipe.

Photos!!! But I may find out soon why people attach Google Drive links...

This is my mouthpiece, the arrow indicates where the shank sits in my slide. The shank wear is from a LONG time in a 'normal' Bach slide.

That’ll happen.

I have a great 70’s 50B with an almost identical condition. I don’t know the full history to know if it took a while or it was just made improperly. But it is one of my favorite playing 50B slides, so I don’t worry about it.

If it bugs you, add some Teflon tape as a temporary fix, and get the pipe swapped for a permanent correction.

Cheers,
Andy

A tech I used to use in Pittsburgh who had his own shop used to do a few common mods to Bach slides back before other manufacturers were as common. The most common thing he'd do was turn down the shank of a mouthpiece so it would increase the insertion depth, but if the person had multiple mouthpieces to modify or wanted a more permanent fix, they did something similar. Not sure if this fix was intentional or not but as Andy mentioned, if it doesn't bother you then it could have been intentional. I've gone the other direction on Bach slides and just yanked it and installed a collar, which often means also getting a new leadpipe. I like to make things more complicated than they need to be. It's sort of my superpower.

Welp, like I said. Reamed out leadpipe. Personally I haven't found a Bach that played well when this happens, 42 or 50, but I'm sure they're out there.

Thanks for all the responses in diagnosing the issue guys! You guys have been a big help. I'm still puzzled why someone would ream out a leadpipe though, and why would someone want their mouthpiece further in?

Additionally, if I choose to get a new leadpipe or make the leadpipe interchangeable, a critique I will face from a colleague is 'even after fixing the leadpipe the slide might be mediocre, just get a new slide that's guaranteed to be good and you will have good slide for the rest of your career.' How much is it to make this slide interchangeable? Should I spoil myself with a new slide for ~$2k?

MistedSwan wrote: ↑Mon Dec 26, 2022 7:54 am Thanks for all the responses in diagnosing the issue guys! You guys have been a big help. I'm still puzzled why someone would ream out a leadpipe though, and why would someone want their mouthpiece further in?

It's not on purpose. Something about the construction means they are very soft up there, so if you just use it enough the leadpipe receiver area just gets reamed out (especially by students, but I've seen it in good condition horns too).

Personally, I'd just have the leadpipe replaced. Interchangeable is nice but it adds a bunch of length to Bachs.

Burgerbob wrote: ↑Mon Dec 26, 2022 7:27 am Welp, like I said. Reamed out leadpipe. Personally I haven't found a Bach that played well when this happens, 42 or 50, but I'm sure they're out there.

Yep, it looks like you diagnosed that one correctly Burgerbob. This is why a picture is worth a thousand words. I had this vision of the entire receiver area having been ground down with a disc sander. I have seen people do that almost to the point where the end is near the cross brace. Makes me say…..”why?”

MistedSwan wrote: ↑Mon Dec 26, 2022 7:54 am Thanks for all the responses in diagnosing the issue guys! You guys have been a big help. I'm still puzzled why someone would ream out a leadpipe though, and why would someone want their mouthpiece further in?

Additionally, if I choose to get a new leadpipe or make the leadpipe interchangeable, a critique I will face from a colleague is 'even after fixing the leadpipe the slide might be mediocre, just get a new slide that's guaranteed to be good and you will have good slide for the rest of your career.' How much is it to make this slide interchangeable? Should I spoil myself with a new slide for ~$2k?

What that tech told me is Bachs did something odd with the placement of the leadpipe that made the horn feel stuffy. People blamed it on the rotors, which also have some unusual design choices. But by making the insertion depth deeper, that apparently ameliorated some of those issues.

Concerning your potential critique, I would argue that a new slide is by no means guaranteed to be good nor would you necessarily want to play it for the rest of your career. It can be for sure, but it's not a guarantee. You're going to get a higher probability from one of the "boutique" guys - Edwards, for example, are essentially totally compatible with the same tenon and everything but they are also slightly different design (a little bit shorter) which may actually make the horn play better for you but it might not either.

So you are presented with two potentially compromise options, neither are guaranteed to be the optimal setup.

Getting a pipe yanked should be done by a tech who has done it before. Bach 42 pipes are a little tight and there's always a risk that the inner slide will be damaged in the process but a good tech who has done this before should be able to get it out w/o destroyng the inner. But if the inner is destroyed or irreparable, the inner slide is not cheap from Bach... like $200ish I want to say. Plus the labor to have the slide work done. So you could be looking at anywhere from $100 to maybe $500. Depends on if you want a collar installed etc. too.

FOrtunately, your $2k budget is actually a bit high. So if you do just want to get something off the shelf, you can even get a new Edwards for under $1300 if my quick Googling is correct. If you go to a show like ATW or ITF or are in close proximity to some of the manufacturers, you can possibly try out several and pick one that may be an improvement for you. I've never quite liked the bass crook that is stock on 42s, nor do I get along with yellow crooks. On a Bach, I would probably end up on a wide, nickel crook - personally. If you do go that route and pick Shires, the 1.5 I've been told is the closest pipe that they have to matching the Bach taper.

Burgerbob wrote: ↑Mon Dec 26, 2022 7:27 am Welp, like I said. Reamed out leadpipe. Personally I haven't found a Bach that played well when this happens, 42 or 50, but I'm sure they're out there.

Yep, I think you are correct on this one BurgerBob. Either done intentionally or the result of many years of use.

From the original description, I envisioned that someone might have ground down the whole receiver with a disc sander to make it shorter. Whenever I see that type of stuff, always makes me ask…….”why?”

I see 2 insertion marks on your mouthpiece. Is the other one from a different instrument? What instrument is that?

Another obvious question: have you tried any other mouthpieces in this Bach? How far does a Bach mouthpiece sit in that receiver? Spec for a Bach mouthpiece in a Bach trombone (at least large bore) is supposed to be one inch.

What I'm suggesting is that the issue might not be the trombone but the mouthpiece. I have seen some pretty significant variation in how far different Greg Black mouthpieces will insert in the same leadpipe. If there's a problem with the mouthpiece, that's something that Greg can fix; he can re-shank it to get it where it should be without changing the rim or cup.

GabrielRice wrote: ↑Mon Dec 26, 2022 8:29 am I see 2 insertion marks on your mouthpiece. Is the other one from a different instrument? What instrument is that?

Another obvious question: have you tried any other mouthpieces in this Bach? How far does a Bach mouthpiece sit in that receiver? Spec for a Bach mouthpiece in a Bach trombone (at least large bore) is supposed to be one inch.

The more major insertion marks are from years of being in a normal Bach slide. The minor insertion mark is where the mouthpiece sits in my trombone.

The problem has been identified to be a reamed out leadpipe, the mouthpiece is A-ok.

Matt K wrote: ↑Mon Dec 26, 2022 8:07 am
FOrtunately, your $2k budget is actually a bit high. So if you do just want to get something off the shelf, you can even get a new Edwards for under $1300 if my quick Googling is correct. If you go to a show like ATW or ITF or are in close proximity to some of the manufacturers, you can possibly try out several and pick one that may be an improvement for you.

Ah...I live in Australia. AUD$2000 is USD$1500, and shipping cost is the bane of every Australian. An Edwards or Shires slide is something I have not considered. Below is a list of what I have thought of. All prices in AUD, shipping included.

Hickey's OEM Slide: $2075.08
Hickey's OEM 3x Pushfit Leadpipe: $418.01
Hickey's OEM stock Leadpipe Replacement: $83.99
Ed Diefes: $2200
Horn Guys 'OEM' Slide w/ 3 Leadpipes: $2050
Butler: $2827.39 lol

Ed Diefes is a maker of Bach slides in Sydney, he makes them out of old Bach parts. Horn Guys seem weird, Bach doesn't make OEM slides with threaded leadpipes, and the part's listing is not the Artisan models, to my knowledge. OEM Bach slide and replacement parts has been included of course, but with three 'Bach' options, and newer spicier menu items mentioned, I'm thinking perhaps I try something new. In addition, Diefes is the only one of the three to offer a nickel crook if I want one.

The shipping cost was not even included in the Butler option...no way am I getting a Butler.

I'll have a think of the Shires and Edwards options though. What do you mean by a 1.5 Shires being closest to a Bach taper, what taper?

Ouch. Okay so that makes a little more sense. Cost to repair will inevitably be different too. Might be worth taking to the guy who rebuilds the Bach stuff since he’s probably very familiar with what parts are needed and may even have a sufficient quantity on hand.

The taper I was referring to was the design of the leadpipe. Custom makers have an assortment of tapers. Shires and Edwards in particular use numbers with 1 being the most compact and 3 being the most broad. Shires also has in between sizes and their 1.5 taper I’ve been told is closest to a Bach 42 leadpipe taper. You might also see a leadpipe referred to as a Venturi by some techs.

M&W also does great stuff and Matt is a fellow TBC member. Worth reaching out. If the reason for the price is exchange rate it might not help but they can also get you situated and they have some dealers too if that makes the international aspect easier.

I really don't think this has been modified, or "reamed". The simple fact is there is a history of inconsistency in Bach parts. I have had examples of factory pipes that had the mouthpiece (of correct shank dimension) sit both too far in, and too far out.

The question is, how does it play?

The end of the mouthpiece may not be in the wrong position in comparison to the rest of the pipe. "That" is what counts the most. It really is irrelevant how much of the shank is covered by the receiver. As long as the interaction point between the end of the mouthpiece and the rest of the pipe is good, it will play just fine.

Of course if the shank end/pipe interaction is "not" correct, then yes, you may have some interesting results. The only way to know is to have it measured by someone who knows the correct dimensions.

Me? I would have Ed Diefes make me a slide without soldering in a leadpipe and then try out some push-fit pipes until I had one I liked. I would then solder it so I am not tempted to experiment more.

BTW. Re pitch. Yes, a mouthpiece inserting deeper into the instrument will raise the pitch. But, let's say the mouthpiece inserts an 1/8" further into the receiver. That equates to roughly 1/16" more pull on the tuning slide. You will get more variation of pitch with temperature changes.

I have to be brutal and suggest that the pitch issues are not due to the horn, but more to do with your not being fully in tune with how that horn plays. You're a student, correct? Where are you on your journey? 1st year undergrad, or final year of Doctorate? Is this horn a recent purchase? Have you had your teacher play the horn?

A bit more diagnostics might be in order before blaming the leadpipe.
Your pics show that the factory decorative groove around the top of the mouthpiece receiver is still intact, so the top of the leadpipe/mouthpiece receiver has not been ground/filed down. It is not unusual to see different insertion depths between different combinations of horn/mouthpiece. Varying the mouthpiece insertion depth does have an effect on the tone produced, but should not create the symptoms you cite. Experimenting with different insertion depths by taping the mouthpiece shank can illustrate that.
If you haven't already done so, have a tech service and adjust the rotary valve. A valve problem is more likely than mouthpiece insertion to cause the symptoms you describe.

CharlieB wrote: ↑Mon Dec 26, 2022 11:48 am Varying the mouthpiece insertion depth does have an effect on the tone produced, but should not create the symptoms you cite.

I disagree with this assertion. I have had exactly the issues the OP describes from a leadpipe that took the mouthpiece too far, and fixed them by replacing it with the same model leadpipe with a more standard receiver.

Experimenting with different insertion depths by taping the mouthpiece shank can illustrate that.

This I agree with completely. MistedSwan, if you can get the instrument playing in a way you like better by putting a little bit of tape around the shank (plumber's teflon tape works well for this, but you can experiment with simple Scotch tape), then you know you're on the right track.

If I were you I would consult with Ed Diefes. It may really be as simple as having him pull the leadpipe and replace it with one that he has on hand or can get.

You're getting good advice here. It's within "normal" variation in production. It would be nice if manufacturers were more consistent, but they're not.

Cleaning out and looking inside the leadpipe with a flash light from the other end will really help you figure out what is going on in there. If it still has a nice smooth taper to the venturi, it probably hasn't been reamed out. It may just have been drawn that way.

I can recommend Ed Diefes - he has my Elkhart 62H at the moment to replace the leadpipe. In my case, the leadpipe was reamed out possibly by years of previous owners using Bach shank mouthpieces in the Conn taper pipe. Even a Conn shank mouthpiece went in far enough that it sat on the decorative trim without sealing properly...

Whatever the reason in your case, Ed should be able to pull the leadpipe and replace it. Hopefully the leadpipe isn't corroded into the slide tube like mine was and you won't also need a new inner tube, but Ed can do that too if necessary. It's more of a risk with older horns like mine. He has a slide in store on which you can try multiple leadpipes and even slide crooks.

hornbuilder wrote: ↑Mon Dec 26, 2022 11:17 am BTW. Re pitch. Yes, a mouthpiece inserting deeper into the instrument will raise the pitch. But, let's say the mouthpiece inserts an 1/8" further into the receiver. That equates to roughly 1/16" more pull on the tuning slide. You will get more variation of pitch with temperature changes.

I have to be brutal and suggest that the pitch issues are not due to the horn, but more to do with your not being fully in tune with how that horn plays. You're a student, correct? Where are you on your journey? 1st year undergrad, or final year of Doctorate? Is this horn a recent purchase? Have you had your teacher play the horn?

I am a 2nd year undergrad, this is my first Bach, I've only really learnt what high notes were a few months ago, this horn is a recent purchase for me, but it is kinda old (specs I know of are below), my professor has played the horn, he says the slide's leadpipe needs work (the range was not quite as efficient as he would have liked) but the valve and bell are great. He attached his Edwards slide to my trombone and he liked it, excluding the main body as the problem.

I think the pitch and G4/range problem of the instrument might be me, but a change might help my range.

~2000s Bach 42 bell, although this is just going off my gearhead friend's assessment.
1974 Corp Valve, batch number 289
~2000s Bach 42 Slide, number 148703

Plumber's tape/thread seal tape has been deployed. The mouthpiece now sits about an inch in the trombone. It plays a little better? I'll have to play this setup more.

Wrap the whole shank. With the end not wrapped, there's a gap that you can't see and doesn't leak, but acoustically that does affect the way it plays.

Doug Elliott wrote: ↑Mon Dec 26, 2022 9:49 pm Wrap the whole shank. With the end not wrapped, there's a gap that you can't see and doesn't leak, but acoustically that does affect the way it plays.

This good?

Should be

The tape is malleable so it should conform to the leadpipe taper if you twist it a bit.

MistedSwan wrote: ↑Mon Dec 26, 2022 8:27 pm My professor has played the horn, he says the slide's leadpipe needs work (the range was not quite as efficient as he would have liked) but the valve and bell are great. He attached his Edwards slide to my trombone and he liked it, excluding the main body as the problem.

Good move.
Now the problem is positively isolated.

My Holton 180 bass leadpipe/receiver is quite worn from many years of use, so mouthpieces sit much further in than on my other large-shank horns. With paper or tape, there is a noticable difference in how the horn plays and I think this was discussed on the old forum by Mike Suter and others, similar to what Doug commented above.

Have you compared this horn to another 42B? Given the number of non-Bach horns floating around Melbourne, it wouldn't surprise me if there wasn't another one at your uni. I managed to pull the leadpipe on my 42 without much trouble and just have it mounted loose, with a narrow ring, so it doesn't extend too far, as Aiden mentioned can happen. Good to know your prof has eliminated the bell section with their slide test, but who knows what setup they're using on the Edwards slide - it may be totally different from a Bach 42 blow anyway, so not entirely useful.

If you can find anther one to try, that'd be my first suggestion (I see you're also after another tech - might be able to find a horn to try at the same time). If you're around the Western suburbs, I'd be happy for you to have a blow on mine as a comparison.

Also curious - you mention that the mouthpiece fitted further out in your old trombone but that this is your first 42 - what were you playing previously? To be fair, the wear marks on the shank of your mouthpiece make it look like the pipe/receiver may well have been slightly out of round, thus keeping the mouthpiece from inserting fully.

Simon