Modification to tune sharper

[CraigTbone]

When I switched from trombone to tuba in my church brass ensemble a few years ago I purchased the previous tuba players Conn 3J.

Intonation is not horrible but some notes are sharp and some are flat, though more are flat than sharp. So the main tuning slide is all the way in.

If the main tuning slide could be pushed in further could I set the individual valve slides to better tune each note?

Is there any simple way to make the tuba sharper? The main tuning slide has braces and such that look like they would impede shortening.

The mouthpiece lead pipe is at the edge of the bell so shortening that is not too practical.

The previous tuba player suggested a shorter mouthpiece. Is that an option?

Are there any other methods to achieve better intonation across the entire range?

[tbonesullivan]

Has it been modified before? What size mouthpiece are you using, and did the previous owner have the same issues? Tubas are definitely quirky, but it seems like something may be off. Are all of the spit valves sealing properly? Are the valve slides tuned correctly?

[GabrielRice]

I used to own a 3J. I found the intonation changed a lot with different mouthpieces. It seemed to do best with variations on the Conn 7B (small Helleberg), though some didn't work (the Schilke 66 for example). The Floyd Cooley Helleberg was better than the stock Conn 7B, and so were the Warburton TG2 and TG3.

[Doug Elliott]

Worn valves that leak can seriously screw up intonation and overall pitch.

[CraigTbone]

The tuba has not been modified to the best of my knowledge. Except water keys as mentioned below.

I am using a Bach 25 mouthpiece. That and a Conn (no other markings) came with the tuba. I took some lessons early on and the Bach sounded better then. The Conn (I believe the previous owner said it was a Helleberg, or is it a copy?) has a slightly larger rim diameter, the rest seems similar to the Bach.

The previous owner did have these intonation problems but he was not a very good player so any time he could honk out most of the notes we were happy.

The water keys are Saturn Valves that I had installed and they seal well. The intonation "problems" were there with the original lever keys. (Again, intonation is not horrible, but now that I have been playing tuba for 2 1/2 years I want to take my playing up a notch.)

The valve slides are all in because I am learning tuba and it was too much to try adjusting them and learn basic tuba at the same time. It is time for me to learn that adjustment but some of the valves are flat and no slides can be pushed in any further.

This is a resonably well used tuba but definitely not worn out. The valves are not leaking I believe. All of the slides are tight as well.

If there is any reference material that would help me through the process of adjusting all the slides please let me know.

Thank you all for your input.

[GabrielRice]

I would suggest trying the Conn.

Not actually hearing and seeing you play I'm guessing, but I would also suggest working on bringing the general pitch up by using both more volume and faster air. Mouthpiece practice will also probably be illuminating.

[robcat2075]

I'm looking at a pic of a 3J.

Which one is the main tuning slide? Is it the one with a red X on it?

TuningBypass.jpg

[Doug Elliott]

Before doing anything else I suggest having a COMPETENT repair person, who regularly works with tubas, check it over. And/or have an actual professional tubist play it.

I don't specifically know of repair shops in SE PA, but Dillon isn't too far away, in Woodbridge NJ and that would be a good choice.

[CraigTbone]

Robert, yes that red x is the main tuning slide.

[robcat2075]

OK, this is the OP's question...

Is there any simple way to make the tuba sharper?

If I had to make this tuba sharper ASAP and a different mouthpiece didn't fix it, I'd get some plastic tubing with an inside diameter just large enough to fit over the receiving tubes of that tuning slide and create a U (shown in green in the pic) that is shorter than the existing one. I'm thinking that clear stuff they sell by the foot in hardware stores.

It's possible some tubing won't sustain a turn with that small a radius without collapsing. PEX might but that doesn't come in small quantities. But you can test the tight curve in the store when you are looking.

Note... I'm not telling the OP to ignore all the other suggestions in this thread. This is a simple experiment that is easy to try and easy to undo if it produces no useful result.

[CraigTbone]

All of your input and insights are most appreciated.

The intonation "problems" are not severe. I am blending in with my ensemble fairly well. (A lot better than the second trumpet and euphonium.) Definitely not a panic situation.

I am addressing this so I can advance my playing skills and be a better tuba player.

(Makes me miss my trombone where all the notes you play with the tuning slide!)

When I purchased this tuba 2 1/2 years ago I had it chem cleaned by a tech in Delaware, Chris Cromer. He was highly recommended to me and has performed good work for me. He also installed the Saturn Valves.

Maybe I should find a tuba teacher with higher level skills. My first teacher was ok to get started but she was more appropriate for beginners through high-school. If anyone knows a good tuba teacher in the Philadelphia area please let me know.

[GabrielRice]

I would recommend getting in touch with Jonathan Fowler at West Chester University: https://www.wcupa.edu/music/instrumenta ... owler.aspx

[CraigTbone]

Thank you Gabe.

[Lastbone]

If you are playing with a pipe organ, remember that the organ often starts sharp if the sanctuary was not well heated during the week. The pipes contract just enough to raise the pitch, but expand as the instrument has warm air blown through it. Played in church a lot -- first service was always out of tune, but the second service was fine.

Also, you can always blame the euphonium.

[CraigTbone]

[GabrielRice]

If you are playing with a pipe organ, remember that the organ often starts sharp if the sanctuary was not well heated during the week. The pipes contract just enough to raise the pitch, but expand as the instrument has warm air blown through it. Played in church a lot -- first service was always out of tune, but the second service was fine.

???

The organs I play with go flat when it's cold. I did a rehearsal the other day with an organ at just under A=437. The tuner was there when we got there to warm up; he said the pitch might come up a bit over the weekend as the heat is on for multiple services.

[BGuttman]

Most instruments tend to go flat in cold weather. The reason for this is that while most instruments tend to shrink in cold weather, the speed of sound is also temperature sensitive and easily overrides the small amount of thermal shrinkage.

The physics involved is nu=c/lambda (frequency is speed of sound over wavelength (length of instrument)). The low speed of sound drops the frequency and thus sounds flat. That's also why you seem kinda flat before you warm up the instrument.

[Kbiggs]

Funny story about organs and temperature: as undergrad, I went on a choir tour to the UK (England, Scotland, Wales). There was one piece for choir and trombone, and I played the instrumental prelude with a string quintet (played the cello part with a Soft-tone mute).

One church in Scotland was interesting. When the organist played an A, I thought it was a Bb—they were in tune with each other. The tuner verified this. I asked the organist, who told me what was going on. The string players just thought their instruments were flat from the weather. I wasn’t able to transpose 1/2 step on the fly, so I sat out that concert. As the day wore on and the church got warmer, the organ only went sharper.

At the time, my tuning slide was out only about 1/4” (King 4B with a Schilke 51, long shank). Nice sounding organ, good acoustics, just tuned at “high pitch.”

[ithinknot]

If you are playing with a pipe organ, remember that the organ often starts sharp if the sanctuary was not well heated during the week. The pipes contract just enough to raise the pitch, but expand as the instrument has warm air blown through it. Played in church a lot -- first service was always out of tune, but the second service was fine.

Nope.

???

The organs I play with go flat when it's cold. I did a rehearsal the other day with an organ at just under A=437. The tuner was there when we got there to warm up; he said the pitch might come up a bit over the weekend as the heat is on for multiple services.

Yep. The pitch also tends to rise over the first few hours as the blower unit warms up from constant running. The extent of the change depends on the location of the blower and the reservoir-based complexity of the winding layout. 5Hz isn't unheard of for chamber organs with the blower inside the (small) case, and for recordings it's quite normal to set a plug timer to run the blower for a couple hours before tuning.

[Posaunus]

If you are playing with a pipe organ, remember that the organ often starts sharp if the sanctuary was not well heated during the week.

As ithinknot (a professional in this area) pointed out, I believe this is bassackward. Wind instruments (including pipe organ and trombone) get sharper as they (and the air that blows through them) warms up.

[GabrielRice]

One church in Scotland was interesting. When the organist played an A, I thought it was a Bb—they were in tune with each other. The tuner verified this. I asked the organist, who told me what was going on. The string players just thought their instruments were flat from the weather. I wasn’t able to transpose 1/2 step on the fly, so I sat out that concert. As the day wore on and the church got warmer, the organ only went sharper.

Yeah...there's an old organ in the loft of a church in Boston that's almost a half step high. That church also has an electronic organ that is used most of the time. But occasionally we have to go up there and struggle.

[Posaunus]

Older instruments (prominently organs, since many have survived a long time) are likely to be tuned very differently. The older "standard" (such as it was) is now called "high pitch".

It wasn't until the 1920s that the American music industry reached an informal standard of A=440 Hz, and some instrument manufacturers began using it. If you play with an old organ (or even historic brass instruments), their pitch may be much higher than you are accustomed to!

[CBlair]

Worn valves that leak can seriously screw up intonation and overall pitch.

This makes sense. While "how the horn plays" is the ultimate determining factor, it makes me wonder about all the vintage horns (e.g., Elkhart Conns) still in somewhat high demand.

* Are the majority of older horns wearing to the point that the valves are indeed worn and leaky?
* Or, are some less prone to deterioration through better (a) construction (b) materials, or (c) general maintenance over the years?

I recall some suggestions to using slightly heavier lubrications for older horns or those with looser tolerances.
CBlair

[Posaunus]

My Elkhart era Conn 88H valve is in impeccable shape - but it did have a ~20+-year rest in the case while I pursued a career and raised a family. In any case, it shows absolutely no signs of wear. Good maintenance or good luck?

[Doug Elliott]

When you buy a used instrument, you really have no idea how it was maintained, and without experience and measuring equipment you can't really tell much about valve wear, or even whether it originally had good compression. I know, from having valves plated and fitted on a Besson euphonium and a York Monster Eb tuba, that intonation vastly improved after the valve job.

[LeTromboniste]

I would definitely follow the advice above to have it inspected for valve leaks.
You can also check if the tuning issues follow certain tendencies. If you play everything open, a Bb arpeggio from low to high slowly to a tuner, does the intonation get gradually sharper and sharper, or flatter and flatter? Are the octaves in tune, narrow or wide? This can result from using a mouthpiece that doesn't fit you and/or the instrument.

Most instruments tend to go flat in cold weather. The reason for this is that while most instruments tend to shrink in cold weather, the speed of sound is also temperature sensitive and easily overrides the small amount of thermal shrinkage.

The physics involved is nu=c/lambda (frequency is speed of sound over wavelength (length of instrument)). The low speed of sound drops the frequency and thus sounds flat. That's also why you seem kinda flat before you warm up the instrument.

String instruments go flat with warm air and sharp with cold air, opposite of us, because the vibrating medium (the string) stretches with heat and that lowers the string tension.
We go sharp because although the instrument might stretch a bit, the effect of the warm air vibrating faster is much greater.
Same with organs.

Older instruments (prominently organs, since many have survived a long time) are likely to be tuned very differently. The older "standard" (such as it was) is now called "high pitch".

It wasn't until the 1920s that the American music industry reached an informal standard of A=440 Hz, and some instrument manufacturers began using it. If you play with an old organ (or even historic brass instruments), their pitch may be much higher than you are accustomed to!

Indeed! I'm slightly surprised to hear of American organs tuned around 460Hz in this thread. But that's definitely common in Europe. I recently played a tour of 8 concerts in North Germany all with historical organs from the 17th century — one concert was at 452 (about a 1/4 tone higher than modern pitch), a couple at around 466 (1/2 step above 440, and home-base for me), and all the others were between 475 and 478 (yet another 1/4 tone higher). One concert we did with a chamber organ (also partly a historical instrument), because the organ upstairs was at around 490 Hz (a whole step above 440) and the strings didn't think they could tune up and sound good so high without using different strings and moving the bridge.

[Kbiggs]

Indeed! I'm slightly surprised to hear of American organs tuned around 460Hz in this thread. But that's definitely common in Europe. I recently played a tour of 8 concerts in North Germany all with historical organs from the 17th century — one concert was at 452 (about a 1/4 tone higher than modern pitch), a couple at around 466 (1/2 step above 440, and home-base for me), and all the others were between 475 and 478 (yet another 1/4 tone higher). One concert we did with a chamber organ (also partly a historical instrument), because the organ upstairs was at around 490 Hz (a whole step above 440) and the strings didn't think they could tune up and sound good so high without using different strings and moving the bridge.

Did you use a crook to adjust for the 1/2 and whole step, or did you transpose?

[Kbiggs]

And to the OP, like Doug said, the easiest and cheapest way to narrow down the problem(s) is take it to a tech. There are a couple of machines they can use (I think one is called a Guppy?) to test for air tightness and leaks. They will also be able to check whether any of the tuning slides leak.

I believe someone above mentioned using a thicker valve oil to help in the meantime. Most music stores will say whether they have a thicker and thinner consistency oil.

[LeTromboniste]

Indeed! I'm slightly surprised to hear of American organs tuned around 460Hz in this thread. But that's definitely common in Europe. I recently played a tour of 8 concerts in North Germany all with historical organs from the 17th century — one concert was at 452 (about a 1/4 tone higher than modern pitch), a couple at around 466 (1/2 step above 440, and home-base for me), and all the others were between 475 and 478 (yet another 1/4 tone higher). One concert we did with a chamber organ (also partly a historical instrument), because the organ upstairs was at around 490 Hz (a whole step above 440) and the strings didn't think they could tune up and sound good so high without using different strings and moving the bridge.

Did you use a crook to adjust for the 1/2 and whole step, or did you transpose?

466 is the main pitch I play at, so the half step difference from 440 is not a problem. I don't transpose, i just think of the instrument as being conceptually in a different pitch (tenor in A), same as they did back then. For tenor, at 452 I used the same longer back bow I normally use for 430 Mozart gigs (that is, a Bb trombone at 430 is the same as an A trombone at 452). I can go up to about 472 with my tenor but for the concerts that were higher than that we used borrowed instruments from one of the churches which has a whole set built to match their organ. For bass, my instrument has different crooks and a very long tuning slide that allow it to play in D at any pitch up to 490Hz, so that wasn't a problem.

[CraigTbone]

I had forgotten that a Helleberg 7B mouthpiece came with the tuba. I found it in a box of many mouthpieces (hidden away sice a tree crushed half our house 15 months ago).

It seems to raise the overall pitch a little bit. Will give it a few more days to see if this is true or just my hope.