TromboneChat

There are still thousands of classic Conn 6H trombones out in the wild, even though they haven’t been manufactured for nearly 50 years. [I have one myself, from 1966. Doesn’t look mint (lacquer loss), but plays great.] Many of them have badly worn slides, substantially decreasing their value and the joy of playing them. This is often attributed to alleged “Conn wear” on the inner slides. My guess is that most of this wear is not due to plating problems or other manufacturing issues, but due to slide misalignment, so that the outer slides rub against the stockings as the slide is extended. I have had several old Conns, obtained from previous owners who kept their trombones well-maintained and probably occasionally tuned up by a knowledgeable tech. None of these slides show “Conn wear” and all (after a refresher by a great Southern California tech) have functioned superbly for several years. [I’m anal-compulsive about slide care and maintenance.]

But what about the thousands of 6Hs which could be making beautiful music if they only had good slides? Conn no longer makes these slides. I’m not a brass manufacturer, and perhaps not a visionary, but I can’t help but think that there is a business opportunity here for a boutique fabricator to make 0.500”-bore replacement slides to fit these old Conns (6H and also 48H). There should be an “after-market” for at least several hundred (if not thousands) of these identical units, if the quality was high and the price reasonable.

What say you, entrepreneurs?

I would be happy to make new slides for existing horns. For anyone interested.

We make complete slide sections for the 6h. Our outer is carbon fiber. The inner slide comes with a Williams style curved brace and threaded leadpipe. https://butlertrombones.com/?page_id=269&v=7516fd43adaa

DaveB wrote: ↑Fri Dec 02, 2022 1:24 pm We make complete slide sections for the 6h. Our outer is carbon fiber. The inner slide comes with a Williams style curved brace and threaded leadpipe.
https://butlertrombones.com/?page_id=269&v=7516fd43adaa

Welcome to TromboneChat, Dave. Your carbon fiber trombones have a fine reputation, and represent a great innovation to our little corner of the music world.

... or... how many people would like a 509 6h? Or a wide slide? The set of wide glide crooks DJK had made several years ago are often referenced. It was just one part, but it must've been a financial success. I put one on a 10h. Imagine a wide 509 48h? Wow.

It would be nice to have an easily accessible option for replacement 6h slides!
I am pretty sure that for myself the relatively heavy weight is one key factor and would have to be reflected. A gold/red brass option would also be interesting.

I honestly can't imagine the market being big enough to make it worth to do that in bulk. The small bore market is flooded as is. I don't know anyone using a 6H professionally around me in LA, one of the small bore capitals of the world. And I own one!

Burgerbob wrote: ↑Sat Dec 03, 2022 2:14 am I don't know anyone using a 6H professionally around me in LA, one of the small bore capitals of the world. And I own one!

Could that be because they all have worn out slides?

Cheers

Stewbones43

I mean, most any tech would probably be happy to source parts and build replacement slides as requested by the owners of these instruments. If you know a small number of people that were willing to come together to purchase a batch of a particular slide, I'm sure that you would have no problem finding someone qualified to build those slides for you.

I think the 100h is basically the same slide as the 6h, but with a removable leadpipe. Anyway, if a particular owner of a 6h wants new inner tubes, those are easily sourced by their tech.

The bigger and not replaceable part are the Elkhart era outer tubes: those are an alloy that is no longer available. But those are usually not what wears out.

Burgerbob wrote: ↑Sat Dec 03, 2022 2:14 am I honestly can't imagine the market being big enough to make it worth to do that in bulk. The small bore market is flooded as is. I don't know anyone using a 6H professionally around me in LA, one of the small bore capitals of the world. And I own one!

As with most such things, the main market would be well-heeled amateurs and weekend warriors rather than professionals. There just aren't that many pros out there, even here in SoCal.

That said, I doubt if it would be commercially viable. You'd get a lot of interest up front, but when the time came to put up real money? Most of that perceived "demand" would vanish faster than a keg of beer at an Oktoberfest gig.

I believe Brassark may have commissioned something similar awhile ago. They had a Conn… 24(?) very old Conn TIS bell that was refurbished and a new Shires TIS 485 slide made for it. Played fabulously. But I’m not sure who originally bankrolled the operation. And I haven’t seen another one since so I’m guessing the profit wasn’t worth the hassle.

It would be easier to swap out the slide receiver and put a current production slide on. I did that for a 4H awhile ago with a 354 slide that played great. King slides would probably also be a good choice

Butler slides mate up with small Conns, as do small Getzen and Edwards slides. I have used Conn 23H slides (gold brass tubes, no oversleeves, and nickel crook) for 6Hs and 48Hs. I actually preferred the sound of a 23H slide more than a couple of different 6H slides. It is also lighter since there are no oversleeves.

JohnL wrote: ↑Sat Dec 03, 2022 8:59 am

Burgerbob wrote: ↑Sat Dec 03, 2022 2:14 am I honestly can't imagine the market being big enough to make it worth to do that in bulk. The small bore market is flooded as is. I don't know anyone using a 6H professionally around me in LA, one of the small bore capitals of the world. And I own one!

As with most such things, the main market would be well-heeled amateurs and weekend warriors rather than professionals. There just aren't that many pros out there, even here in SoCal.

That said, I doubt if it would be commercially viable. You'd get a lot of interest up front, but when the time came to put up real money? Most of that perceived "demand" would vanish faster than a keg of beer at an Oktoberfest gig.

This is certainly correct. As a couple people have posted in this thread, there are already makers perfectly willing to build such slides on request, and yet they aren't drowning in orders for them. A fair price for their work to fabricate a new 6H slide is probably going to be about as much as the current market price to buy a usable straight tenor, maybe even including slide repair work. For the amateurs who would be much of the prospective market, one or another of those used slides floating around is likely to be good enough.

stewbones43 wrote: ↑Sat Dec 03, 2022 3:08 am

Could that be because they all have worn out slides?

Cheers

Stewbones43

I don't think that's the issue haha

Sounds like Conn slides are common enough. How about the “duo-octagonal” Olds slides? I’ve never seen anyone offer replacements for those.

dxhall wrote: ↑Sat Dec 03, 2022 2:24 pm Sounds like Conn slides are common enough. How about the “duo-octagonal” Olds slides? I’ve never seen anyone offer replacements for those.

For any of the Olds 0.485 and 0.500 dual bore slides, use King 0.490 and 0.500 for the inners and 0.500 for the outers. The King 0.490 leadpipe may be utilized as installed by the OEM. The difference in how it then plays is not significant. I have heard the hot rodders use all 0.500 replacement inners. It is hearsay to me since I have not tried it. I assume that the larger bore would open it up.

Burgerbob wrote: ↑Sat Dec 03, 2022 12:13 pm

stewbones43 wrote: ↑Sat Dec 03, 2022 3:08 am

Could that be because they all have worn out slides?

Cheers

Stewbones43

I don't think that's the issue haha

It's the sound, right? There's something ... humorless about the 6H. Not unlikeable, but passive. Made sense for Kenton. Somewhere in the archives there's a Sam Burtis monologue about the 'C19th American' character of small Conns, and I know what he means.

6H's produce a nice but "dry" sound. I think it is a bit dated. But it is a sound I really like, nonetheless!

ithinknot wrote: ↑Sat Dec 03, 2022 4:50 pm

It's the sound, right? There's something ... humorless about the 6H. Not unlikeable, but passive. Made sense for Kenton. Somewhere in the archives there's a Sam Burtis monologue about the 'C19th American' character of small Conns, and I know what he means.

I think it's a good sound. But it's just not what people play around here. Lots of 2Bs that have a bit more spice all around and other newer boutiques. Some Bachs that have much more warmth as well. I certainly don't feel the need to switch to the 6H, even though the '50s I have is very good (and has a perfect slide!).

FWIW and I know it’s not identical to a 6H slide but is compatible with one, a complete 100H slide assembly from Conn Selmer is listed as $1528.28:

https://parts.conn-selmer.com/products ... /100h/100h

Who know’s what kind of delivery times and availability to expect but on paper they are in the catalogue.

Hard to see how a small run could be significantly cheaper, based on prices of slides from boutique makers in general (which I’m not questioning, work by fine craftspeople has its value).

For $1500 it is more than feasible to find a near mint 6H, or get one with some issues and pay for it to be fixed up.

One thing that comes to mind is if someone like Wessex or similar would take it on, i.e. made in China but with some QC. I would have been interested in that for a couple of Conn horns I owned in the past but moved over to King small bore for my weekend warrior purposes these days anyway.

While the 100h slide may be a good reference point regarding price, in my opinion it is absolutely not comparable in its features, different to a statement above saying "I think the 100h is basically the same slide as the 6h, but with a removable lead pipe".

My 100h outer slide feels like max half the weight of my 6h slides, many small design features are different and it might even have a different length (never checked it, but the 100h slide seems long to me).
And it plays totally different.

I think you misread their post. It doesn't say comparable, they say compatible:

"FWIW and I know it's not identical to a 6H but is compatible with one..."

Compatibility does not imply similarity, especially when we're talking about vintage instruments. Especially when the question was whether or not there was a viable business around revitalizing older Conns that have issues with the slides. If you want something closer to the original, the obvious answer is to find one that already exists in good condition or have a custom one made to your desired specs. Alternatively, see if you can make potential compromises to bring the cost down. I would be surprised if there was a way to get both historical accuracy and a lower cost than custom.

That said, if the end result desired is to have a stock of good-playing trombones sourced from existing bells that have no slide or poor-condition slides, then a replica may be neither the best nor the only solution for every player, let alone that specific weight 500/500 slide with that specific lead pipe. A little bit of flexibility goes a long way. Like the 4H paired with the 354 slide, I mentioned earlier. Replica? Not even close. But could it have been a competent daily driver for someone? Absolutely. This is why I suggested reframing this to ask what the best slide receiver might be since there are tons of very good slides in that size available, and the parts are still mass-manufactured, so prices can be kept lower too.

I’m pretty sure MStarke was quoting someone else from earlier in the thread re. the 100H slide being basically the same as the 6H slide but he may have a good point about the length. It would be worth to check with measurements and a tuner. I borrowed a 100H slide briefly and it did fit the Elkhart 6H I had at the time and I thought sounded ok but, I don’t recall checking the exact length or tuning.

Perhaps MStarke would be kind enough to test this since he has both available?

I did compare a Minick small bore slide I recently sold with the same Elkhart 6H, with that being the basis of, but perhaps not identical to a 100H. Visually, laying the slides next to each other they were extremely close in overall dimensions, of course with significant differences in design, with the 6H being noticeably heavier. All combinations of slide and bell played ok to my tastes but the best combos were the original complete horns. There was a very minor adjustment in tuning, playing off the bumpers I didn’t really notice after the first couple of minutes. Less difference than between Elkhart and modern 88H slides for example.

I’m not advocating to buy a new 100H slide for a 6H, I can think of many more ways to spend that kind of cash for better returns. It really was just intended as a point of reference. I would much prefer to pay my favourite craftsperson to renovate an old 6H slide, going as far as complete new inners (and possibly outers). To me that feels more like a project-based business than a product one.

Ah, yeah that makes sense. On that note, if it is "Conn wear", meaning that the stockings are worn, someone like M/K could economically make replacement inners for these types of projects at a much more "reasonable" price point than an entire new custom slide if they don't already. Earlier in the thread someone was mentioning Olds replacements but I dnot' see anyone mentioning if they've found a suitable substitute for new inners.

I do wonder the extent to which the criticisms of the 6H could be ameliorated with a different leadpipe. Most other Conn models seem to have a popular taper like the 8/88H, 78/79H, and 32H pipes that have been copied by several companies... but not the 6H. Or at least not to my knowledge. They could be the same taper for all I know though.

"Well, son, what are you going to do when you get out of school?"

"Oh, Daddy, I have a business idea. I'm going to make things for trombone players!"

I really admire people who can pull this off.

Yes, I was referring to chromebone, not MrHCinDE. I fully got that MrHCinDE only meant it as a reference point regarding price from the same manufacturer and a somewhat comparable quality.

On the 6h itself and some statements reg its fit to today's playing:
I love how it plays, its kind of controlled, for my ears colourful sound that probably sounds bigger than other horns with the same bore size. For me it's also quite versatile regarding the settings it would fit. I admit it may not be the very very best choice for lead trombone, but would also work. BTW high range is fantastic on mine.
And to me - playing Conn (style) large bore and bass - it fits into the overall picture.

Of course I am not a top professional jazz/lead/commercial player.

Matt K wrote: ↑Sun Dec 04, 2022 5:46 am Ah, yeah that makes sense. On that note, if it is "Conn wear", meaning that the stockings are worn, someone like M/K could economically make replacement inners for these types of projects at a much more "reasonable" price point than an entire new custom slide if they don't already. Earlier in the thread someone was mentioning Olds replacements but I dnot' see anyone mentioning if they've found a suitable substitute for new inners.

Replacing inners (or even outers) can be much more economical than a new slide. Chuck Ward out of Chardon, Ohio is an expert with tools to properly swage fit up differences in tubes and leadpipes. He measured the King and Olds leadpipes and determined that the difference was not significant enough to warrant pulling the King 0.490 leadpipe. He has the tools to measure the differences and experience and expertise to make good recommendations. This is not to say that other technicians on and off this site do not have similar capabilities.

We are getting down to spizwinks though. Spizwinks are insects that buzz around and bother gnats. Since it is still in production, Bach 12 tubes would be good candidates for 6H tubing replacement. Trashing a 6H leadpipe on removal is always a risk. If the expectation is that the results will be exactly the same, try to find another horn.

My ear tells me that the Yamaha 697Z is close to a King 2B. But not the same. The Yamaha 653 is somewhat close to a 6H (albeit squirrelly) and whatever Shires sold me is even closer. But I would not venture to say they’re the same. I think Shires or some of the people on this site could supply a leadpipe that is close to a 6H. Chuck Ward could tell you if it was close enough with the caveat that installation can make a difference. So if a 2B+ inner or Bach 12 inner came with a leadpipe installed and Mr. Ward said it was close enough, I would try it as is and have him the original 6H leadpipe if it was not the damaged. Doug Elliott probably could tell us, too. And others.

The nice thing about trying LT12’s, Schmelzer 1’s, and 2B+’s is we can choose the one that fits. Rebuilding slides
Is cheaper than purchasing a new horn but there is a crapshot aspect about it. With an experienced technician it is not a huge risk. The difference should be less than the difference between two brand new horns from the same manufacturer.

Posaunus wrote: ↑Fri Dec 02, 2022 11:39 pm

DaveB wrote: ↑Fri Dec 02, 2022 1:24 pm We make complete slide sections for the 6h. Our outer is carbon fiber. The inner slide comes with a Williams style curved brace and threaded leadpipe.
https://butlertrombones.com/?page_id=269&v=7516fd43adaa

Welcome to TromboneChat, Dave. Your carbon fiber trombones have a fine reputation, and represent a great innovation to our little corner of the music world.

Thanks for the nice comment! And thank you for providing and moderating this forum!

Took some photos of the slides in comparison.

100h slide is a bit longer and a tiny bit narrower.

Other most obvious differences:
100h slide is MUCH lighter and seems to be more yellow material, which could also be a lacquer difference. I cannot measure it, but it feels like the weight difference is not only the missing oversleeves, but also thinner slide tubes.

Overall the 100h is extremely light. I decided I will sell it because I clearly prefer the 6h - and just got a third one that will need a little repair...

baileyman wrote: ↑Sun Dec 04, 2022 6:05 am "Well, son, what are you going to do when you get out of school?"

"Oh, Daddy, I have a business idea. I'm going to make things for trombone players!"

"Son, someone already makes insulated pizza delivery bags."


Regarding 6H vs. 100H; the 6H was originally designed as a general-purpose trombone in an era when it wasn't uncommon for a .500" horn to be used in an orchestra. It wasn't intended to be a "jazz" horn, it just turned out to be well-suited to the style when it came along. The 100H was designed with jazz/commercial playing in mind.