TromboneChat

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Those are styles of playing, not embouchure types.

There have been a lot of discussions on embouchure mechanics and embouchure types here already. You have people with very different embouchure types in each of those groups.

You should read the massively long thread we had here and learn yourself up first, so that we aren't starting a new discussion with misinformation off the bat. I mean that in the best possible way. We can even resurrect the old thread.

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https://trombonechat.com/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=19286 would be a good example

You're describing musical choices - mechanically, Gilkes and Watrous could sound much more like each other if they wanted to. (Being alive would also help.)

Or this one:
https://trombonechat.com/viewtopic.php?t=22337#p158845

Along with Daves Video on the different embouchure types:

Model34, I want to disagree with you. Donald Reinhardt spent a lifetime studying embouchure and created a system to define it. Based on whether you blow "upstream" (i.e. toward your nose) or "downstream" (i.e. toward your chin), and how you place the mouthpiece on your lips; most people place the center of the mouthpiece either above the lip line or below. You will hear the terms "placement" to describe where the mouthpiece lies on the lips. There are a series of Roman numerals that Reinhardt used in his system. One of his students is Doug Elliott, who I'm sure can explain this a lot better than I can. One of Doug's students is Dave Wilken (also on the Chat). They both use the Reinhardt classification to help players get the best out of their instrument.

The Reinhardt system is a lot more complex than your [to me oversimplistic] observation.

If you really want to see a variety of embouchures, find a book by Bill Spilka called "Chops". It has pictures of a bunch of New York City pros in playing position. You can then see if your system describes what they are doing.

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You are categorizing players by sound, style, and volume choices. No relation to embouchure types. Joe, Marshall, and Bill are all the same embouchure type.

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Model34 wrote: ↑Sat Nov 05, 2022 8:24 am I’m trying to approach this from the characteristics of the sound produced more than anything about up or down stream, or a dentist type classification of mouths. And use that sound to investigate the embouchure types in my classification system: being Muscle vs float on and in the upper & lower range. OR, Muscles: Gilkes, Alessi, Mark Zaus vs floaters: Urbane, Watrous, J. Morrison.

Then you should call "your classification system" Sound Types, not Embouchure Types. They are completely unrelated.

Urbie had two entirely different sound styles depending on what he was playing - his soft controlled ballad "floaty" sound, and a blasting, raspy "muscular" sound. Same player, different choices.

Perceived sound quality is almost entirely in the attack, not the sustain. That's true of different instruments and different players. If you remove the attack from the recorded sound of any of your examples, you probably wouldn't know which was which except maybe from the vibrato.

Evidenced by the Al Kay recording on Tar that recently had a lot of us thinking it was the original Urbie recording!

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I’m on my phone so it won’t be as easy for me to find link but there was a recently released movie called Tar that had a track from Urbie Greens album “Umpteen trombones”. Many who saw the album thought it was the original track, remastered. But it turns out Al Kay and a group whose name escapes me at the moment transcribed it and re-recorded it. Al Kay sounds exactly like Urbie did on the recording.

Point being that, as Doug mentioned, the sound for sustained notes has a lot to do with matching vibrato (if it was used). I don’t know what Al’s embrochure type is, I haven’t seen a video of him playing afaik but he can likewise do many styles and in this case, so we’ll that he was emulating one of the great masters of the instrument flawlessly.

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Model34 wrote: ↑Sat Nov 05, 2022 10:37 am Final post by me on this topic.

Since all postings, and PMs were nonresponsive, in a legal sense, it is clear no discussion of my topic as I defined it is possible on this forum. I, as the original poster, attempted to communicate with you about an undefined aspect of the embouchure of some brass players. I failed!

This topic has been open barely 12 hours.

Ok, as long as it's legal. I personally, and with no legal opinion, found the responses more thought provoking than the original post. Trombonists' thoughts matter.

As has been said the OP asked the wrong question, I think I might know what he was getting at but he was asking it with the wrong terminoogy. I would have taken Dougs lead and then asked him what question I should have asked to find out what I really wanted to know! On the other hand I would have just asked Doug in a PM - no one knows more about it than him, I wouldnt need a debate!!... Doug (not Elliot!!)

Model34,

Bruce, Doug Elliott, and Harrison are long-standing members here on TC; Doug and Bruce are moderators. They have A LOT of teaching and playing experience, and are knowledgeable. Period.

While I cannot speak for Doug, I know he studied with Donald Reinhart, one of the first people to study the embouchure without pre-conceived notions about how it works. One of Doug’s students, Dave Wilken (also a long-time member here on TC), is another knowledgeable/well-versed resource on embouchures. Harrison is an excellent player and musician and has published his own book on learning to play alto trombone.

When these sorts of people, with their accumulated experience, suggest that your question, while well-intentioned, doesn’t make sense, it is a criticism and suggestion to learn more, do more “digging,” and re-think the question. It could simply be a matter of vocabulary or nomenclature.

Rather than throwing in the towel and implying that others (a) don’t know what they are talking about, or (b) aren’t responding the question you posed (“legally” or not—I have no idea what “legal” is meant in this context), perhaps taking a step back and looking at your assumptions about embouchure and your questions, and developing a curiosity about the subject, would lead you to discover more than you currently imagine.

As you noted in your last post, you failed. I intend no disrespect here, but—big deal. We’ve all failed in this enterprise called music, and we’ve all made false starts and operated under incorrect assumptions. Those aren’t reasons to quit. They are reasons step back and re-think things.

Please: try again.

I think the term “legal” was meant to say the answers did not respond to the OP’s question.

OP is describing a playing style and calling it "embouchure". We have a proper study of embouchure and it has no correspondence to playing style. If he wants to ask about starts and stops of notes, that's a legit question. It's something that becomes part of the artistry of the player. Lots of folks have lots of approaches to this and it's often what makes us who we are.

Very sorry Model34, I think I accidentally deleted your last post when I was trying to quote it.

Model34 wrote: Some players use a combination of rolling their lips in, to ride their air column to play.

You brought this statement into the question.
It's not right, but not necessarily wrong either...

I think what you're really asking/telling/whatever, is about efficiency. When all the physical factors in playing line up and agree, it sounds easy, what you describe as "floating." When some things don't agree, it sounds "musclular" because the player is fighting something to get the pitch to happen.

In reality it doesn't really matter whether it's high, middle, or low range - the same things can happen, you just notice it more in the high range sound.

This is getting into all of the stuff I teach - how to play with the greatest efficiency. It's a complex subject.

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No censoring, I just made a mistake and I admitted it. I hit the wrong button.

And breath......

Model34 wrote: ↑Sat Nov 05, 2022 7:06 am Suggest a link Harrison. Without condescending remarks. Period. Full stop. If you can’t do that say nothing.

Or, you know, search the forum. You came in at a 90⁰ angle out of left field using embouchure terminology to describe things when you really were talking about playing styles. It's not the first time people have requested that someone search the forum before they ask questions that the whole world hinges on, without a good foundation to discuss from. As you can see in the thread here, just take a step back, think "whoa, maybe I can learn something here and come out more knowledgeable from this", and stop thinking that everyone is attacking you.

I certainly don't know even 1% what Doug knows about embouchure, so that's literally all I've got.

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Model34 wrote: ↑Sat Nov 05, 2022 5:04 pm Delete my account NOW

Chill.

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No need to delete when the forum has a perfectly good "foe" option that lets users ignore the posts of childish knuckleheads.

--Andy in OKC

I probably shouldn’t say this, but here goes…..

Model34, it seems like maybe you’re experiencing some emotional distress. I hope you will consider talking to someone about what you’re going through.

Burgerbob wrote: ↑Sat Nov 05, 2022 5:07 pm

Model34 wrote: ↑Sat Nov 05, 2022 5:04 pm Delete my account NOW

Chill.

Again? This is not the first time I've seen OP leave this comment.

He’s gone. Nice job guys.

(Just in case I’m misunderstood, I mean this sarcastically.)

Sorry I didn't get to know you. I have come here to learn and learn I have! Part of that has been learning to ask the right questions, very specific questions fetch very specific answers. I do not believe anyone here is overtly or covertly rude, just direct.