TromboneChat

It’s often talked about how the king 3bf is one of the most versatile horns out there. It got me thinking. Are there any new makers out there making .500 or .508 bore horns with an f attachment?

Shires does (at least for the Gilkes model)

Rath also does a small bore F attachment.

There's a forum member who has an Edwards small bore with a valve. Don't know if that was done at Edwards or aftermarket though.

Others:

Thein Maxim (.488")
Carol Brass CTB-2229-YSS-YNNN-N3 (.508")
Jupiter JTB710F (.500")

Yamaha YSL-356G (.500"-.525", so it half counts.)
Inderbinen Ballet Quart (also .500"-.525")

I'm going to be doing a 3bf sized horn double valved for a client soon, but I've built a handful of them prior (single valve of course).

LIBrassCo wrote: ↑Fri Nov 04, 2022 9:00 pm I'm going to be doing a 3bf sized horn double valved for a client soon, but I've built a handful of them prior (single valve of course).

Oh man, I cannot wait to see what you cook up. Are you using stock king rotors?

Shires Gilkes and also the MD+ .508 has been done with a valve a few times.

How about this?
https://www.kuehnl-hoyer.de/en/produkt ... ier-512-f/
I‘d still class it as small bore but having sat next to someone playing one in rehearsal I could easily have believed he was playing a medium bore setup in some tunes and a 0.500“ in others. I didn‘t play it but can confirm it was supremely comfortable to hold.


If you want to go to 0.500“, you can also combine a 0.500“ slide from a King 2B+/606 or Benge 170 with the 3B/F. I have this facility but so far get more use out of the 3B slide on the Benge 170 bell than the other way round.

Matt K wrote: ↑Fri Nov 04, 2022 9:05 pm

LIBrassCo wrote: ↑Fri Nov 04, 2022 9:00 pm I'm going to be doing a 3bf sized horn double valved for a client soon, but I've built a handful of them prior (single valve of course).

Oh man, I cannot wait to see what you cook up. Are you using stock king rotors?

Either hagmanns or meinl open flows.

Ohhhhh man. Small bore king with inline Hagmanns is the horn I always wanted but didn’t know it. I bet that thing is going to play like a total dream.

Not a lot of room for haggies with a narrow slide... using a wider crook too?

Burgerbob wrote: ↑Sat Nov 05, 2022 8:37 am Not a lot of room for haggies with a narrow slide... using a wider crook too?

Prolly. Could end up being Meinls instead so i guess it depends.

So it looks like Shires, Rath and Edwards all make one. Any thoughts about how it compares to the 3bf?

I had a 1YM Shires that thought played ever so slightly better than a 3BF I had at the time. The dual-bore rotor they put on the small horns is pretty fantastic at Shires. Which isn't to say the King rotors are bat at all. They punch way above their weight IMO. In other words, on a horn setup like a King it's unsurprisingly pretty similar to the King. By similar I mean something like a T08NLWYC slide and a 1YM or thereabouts bell.

That said, I think what put the Shires over the King for me was the yellow slide and nickel uter I had on my Shires slde. Nickel was just a touch too bright for me. Reversing the materials was much better balanced. I've since discovered that the intermediate kings are actually a really good fit for me and I'd take the current 607F with a 500/525 & nickel crook over probably anything I could get from shires. Probably. If I had 5k to drop I'd probably try to find out The 607 bell I have is also unsoldered, so that's more like a 2YLW using Shires nomenclature.

JLivi wrote: ↑Sun Nov 06, 2022 8:29 am So it looks like Shires, Rath and Edwards all make one. Any thoughts about how it compares to the 3bf?

The small bore Fs made by those companies will play like the design of the straight horn with the additional flexibility offered by an F. So it’s hard to do a direct comparison unless you have a boutique horn built to 3B specs (nickel slide, yellow round crook, 2 piece bell soldered rim).

I used to own a Rath R2F w optional straight gooseneck. It played nothing like a 3BF. 8 inch Rose brass lightweight bell, nickel slide. It was more like a featherweight Bach with a voight valve. Build quality and balance was stellar! The response was quick, sound was crystal clear, but I couldn’t get on with it. Very little feedback for me (I need a lot). I think the bell couldn’t handle the energy I was putting through it. At loud volumes it was too bright with my playing style, not enough core for my liking, those horns were designed as 7.5 inch bells, so the 8 inch may have broadened the sound too much? I decided to sell the entire thing instead of tinkering. The valve performed very well though. I enjoyed it in the studio, but felt the horn played better in its original form. I’m happy to say the current owner seems to be very happy with it the last few years and it works for them!

I would imagine that the MD+ with a valve would perform like a more efficient, clearer tone, 3BF, but I haven’t tried one straight or F so I can’t say for sure.

LIBrassCo wrote: ↑Fri Nov 04, 2022 9:00 pm I'm going to be doing a 3bf sized horn double valved for a client soon, but I've built a handful of them prior (single valve of course).

Show us when it's finished! I can't wait to see!!

B.C I tried a Rath with .508 bore and an f-attachement, and it was great. If I remember correctly, I kind of wanted it to have a larger bell, but I don't recall what model it was.

Finetales wrote: ↑Fri Nov 04, 2022 7:32 pm There's a forum member who has an Edwards small bore with a valve. Don't know if that was done at Edwards or aftermarket though.

I think one of the guys in Capitol Bones plays one of those. Not 100% sure, but in their videos where he's playing it, it sure looks like an Edwards and sounds like a small bore.

bassclef wrote: ↑Thu Nov 10, 2022 5:30 pm

Finetales wrote: ↑Fri Nov 04, 2022 7:32 pm There's a forum member who has an Edwards small bore with a valve. Don't know if that was done at Edwards or aftermarket though.

I think one of the guys in Capitol Bones plays one of those. Not 100% sure, but in their videos where he's playing it, it sure looks like an Edwards and sounds like a small bore.

Jay Gibble. I think it’s an olds valve, not sure if Edwards did the work or not though . The liner notes to one of the capitol bones album makes a joke about it.

It is a G attachment made for him by Todd Clontz.

There is also the Yamaha YSL-852, which is .500" with F (and I just found out about!).

Finetales wrote: ↑Sat Nov 12, 2022 10:37 am There is also the Yamaha YSL-852, which is .500" with F (and I just found out about!).

Interesting. Looks like it was produced from 1982 to 1984. Never heard of oneeither.

Here's one for sale in the Philippines - it's the only example I found after a brief search. Has the standard semi-open wrap, but squished to fit in the much narrower span.

Comes out to just under $800, so if anyone feels like getting after it...

I took an older Edwards valve and had a tech rebuild all the tubing to fit the 500/508 bore Edwards. I had the F tubing cut to Ab, the same as a first valve.

Effectively, I have a one valve/first valve superbone that I can gracefully play fast licks and wild stuff with.

This is a case of after I got electrocuted several years ago, I lost my doodle and double tongue. No amount of practice brought those skills back. So I bought them.

With alternate positions, I can play about any fast lick. Not like alternate positions are hard for a trombonist. I can also play nice low Eb and a good enough low D. But throwing in a 2 octave rip while improvising is a lot of fun.

I guess this horn is more one of a kind then boutique. Pictures are in my profile.

I bought a Rath R2F (.510) with a 7.75" bell from a member here a few years ago, so they do make them! It's been my go-to horn for my wedding band gigs. Plays like a champ, though I may experiment further with different leadpipes as it came with 2 of them both marked "2" and I want to see what other ones feel like.

Rath made an R12F for me (0.481″ / 0.491″ with 71/2" bell) with a Voigt valve- lovely instrument

We also tried a Hagman (I've got pics if anyone is interested) but the Voigt worked better.

MrBadger wrote: ↑Wed Nov 16, 2022 1:10 am Rath made an R12F for me (0.481″ / 0.491″ with 71/2" bell) with a Voigt valve- lovely instrument

We also tried a Hagman (I've got pics if anyone is interested) but the Voigt worked better.

IMG_0482.jpeg

Looks similar to mine! Brushed lacquer bell and all, with the Voigt valve. I had never played on one before and it's quite nice. Very free blowing and does everything I need it to do for the wedding band.

Lars Gerdt in Stockholm is making me a TIS Gerdt Mod 216 small tenor with 8" bell and .500 bore and attachement. It will be built with attachment in F, Gb or G. I'm planning to use the G by default, but guess an attachment in F could be handy sometimes. The Gb might not be much used. It is like the second valve on an inline bass. I might find out later. I imagine a valve in Ab could be more useful than a valve in Gb, but the wrap does not allow for Ab-tuning.

/Tom

Alternatively, a good tech would be able to modify an existing horn and install a valve (or two). Sourcing brand new small bore rotors and tubing may be difficult and/or expensive, but there's the option to cannibalize existing instruments as well.

Huge fan of a small bore with a valve - I built Marshall Gilke's small bore valve section when I was working at Shìres(.513" valve tubing and .525" valve and valve and neckpipe) and had a chance to play it a bit before it left the factory. Fantastic horn and super responsive thru the valve and pedal register.

Kuhnl & Hoyer offers the Bart Van Lier .512" trombone with F-attachment.