Should I take a lesson with Doug Elliott?

[Levito]

Hey everyone! I’m a student trombone player who has been playing for about 6 years now. I got braces about 4 years ago and braces as a whole have probably been one of the worst experiences of my life. My embouchure was a total mess, my tone was terrible, my technique was garbage, I have zero range. It was horrible. I honestly wouldn’t have even realized this if I hadn’t switched teachers about 3-4 months ago. I’m that time I’ve been able to establish a much better tone as well as an infinitely better low register. However I struggle a lot in the upper register. To top it all off, last week I got my braces off. I was excited for this because I would be able to play for as long as I wanted pain free and with a good foundation for my technique. This was not at all the case.

The day after I got my braces off I couldn’t play a middle F and although it ducked I progressed throughout the week. Now I’m at the point where my low register sounds great and is in very good shape, but my middle register which is C in the bass clef staff to F above the staff is a little thin and difficult to play as I go higher up. My high register is literally non existent. The moment I try to play higher than an F my mouthpiece pressure goes crazy and no amount of blowing will help get those notes out.

Long story short- I have a lot of problems with my playing and my embouchure and technique and I don’t know what to do and I haven’t been able to meet with my teacher the last few weeks because of scheduling issues. I’ve heard Doug Elliott is the best of the best and has helped a lot of you guys out. Should I try and get a lesson with him, because at this point I don’t really know what else to do.

Sorry for the long rant, and thanks!

[ithinknot]

yes

[aasavickas]

Yes. He used to do online lessons and probably still does. Reach out to him and set it up.


My personal opinion on embouchure issues:

Embouchure mechanics are complicated and typically misunderstood by those who speak and write about them.

Doug Elliot is one of the few guys who really knows what he is talking about and he can give you exercises to nudge your chops into how they ought to work for your particular face.

If you want to do some homework, read up on Doc Reinhardt and maybe Maggio. However, you are probably better off just setting up a lesson with Doug.

[boneagain]

Yet another "yes" vote.

Might be OK to read up on Doc Reinhardt, but I recommend NOT diving into the "Encyclopedia of The Pivot System" until AFTER at least one lesson with Doug. Many folks have completely misunderstood Reinhardt based on that book. AFTER lessons with Doug I got FAR more value out of Reinhardt's writings!

Lessons with Doug provide FAR more bang for the buck than any mouthpiece or other hardware change you can buy!

[Levito]

How do I go about getting a lesson with him? Is there a way I can contact him?

[BGuttman]

Doug is right here on Trombone Chat. If you find a post by him, simply click on the Contact symbol (dialog balloon). He may be reading this and will chime in anyway. He does Zoom lessons and if you are in the metro DC area he is based in Maryland.

[Levito]

Thank you!

[JohnL]

It sounds like your current teacher (you said you switched a few months back) was able to help you make significant progress (at least in the low register) in a relatively short time, so I wouldn't discount them being able to help you through this once you're able to get some lessons.

That said - a lesson with Doug right now will get you started on the right path (and keep you off the many "wrong paths") to developing your new embouchure. Getting the fundamentals right from the start will make your trombone-playing life much easier in the future.

[Levito]

Yes those were my thoughts exactly. My teacher right now is an amazing teacher I just haven’t been able to approach the issue and won’t be able to for a little while longer. So being able to get put on the right track will help me significantly and will get me motivated again when I don’t have to worry about if I’m doing things wrong or not

[BGuttman]

I should point out that if Doug is not available, Dave Wilken (also on the board) is also an embouchure expert -- he was one of Doug's students. He also does Skype or Zoom lessons.

[Kbiggs]

Yes, I recommend a lesson with Doug or Dave Wilken. Both are here on TC. I also recommend that you wait for just a little while to allow your chops to adjust to your new embouchure, perhaps 2-3 months. It will also allow the inside of your mouth to “soften” up after removal of the braces. If Doug or Dave think that’s not an issue, I’d go with what they say.

My opinion, based on standard braces in middle school and Invisalign about 10 years ago: the inside of the mouth gets “calloused” or develops “scar tissue” due to the braces. I put these in quotes because I doubt that’s what really happens, but that’s what it felt like to me.

[OneTon]

An oral surgeon and trombone player took all 4 of my wisdom teeth out the same day. 3 days later I was playing again. But it took some time to get the air going where it needed to again. You might consider limiting practice to 30 minutes or 1 hour per day until your mouth heals up. It will also lower your stress level. Focus on the techniques your teacher taught you before the braces came out.

Lessons are great. You might get more out of the lesson(s) if you give yourself at least 2-4 weeks to stabilize and heal. The aforementioned time of 2-3 months could be required. Lower your expectations. They just pulled a small hardware store out of your mouth.

[Wilktone]

I recall it took me about a month to get used to playing without braces when I got mine off. To a certain degree it will take some time before your embouchure develops to the different foundation underneath your lips and mouthpiece rim. I would need to watch you play to know for sure, but I think after a week enough time has gone by that Doug or I could watch you play and get you moving in the right direction. If Doug hasn't already posted here or you haven't already found his profile on Trombone Chat shoot me a message and I'll send you his contact info.

Dave

[Vegasbound]

Yes, have a lesson with Doug!

[Levito]

I reached out to Doug and he got back to me! I would say maybe waiting longer could work but I really do feel as if I’m doing something wrong. I felt like that with braces on too as my high range was always extremely inconsistent and unreliable. That being said I have noticed that when I ascend and focus on really hardening my chops a ton my high range comes out way better. Definetly something to talk to Doug about if I have a lesson with him. Thanks everyone for the help, I very much appreciate it!

[Doug Elliott]

I never had braces but I've taught players who did.
It's not surprising that you would have trouble with them on. Now without them it's a matter of figuring out your embouchure type and correct mechanics for your face, as it is now.
It is NOT a matter of "really hardening my chops a ton."

And I don't think there's any reason to wait. The sooner you get on playing correctly for your face, you'll progress fast.

[aasavickas]

Excellent advice on this thread so far.

I would do whatever Doug says. He knows what he is talking about.

Dave Wilken is also great. If you are an autodidact you may want to check out his website. He does a really good job communicating the basics. That said, nothing will be as good as some lessons with either Doug or Dave.

https://wilktone.com/?page_id=5619


IMHO

[Levito]

Lol, got a lesson with Doug. Am very excited to figure out how to actually play.

[Cmillar]

Lol, got a lesson with Doug. Am very excited to figure out how to actually play.

Best thing you'll do!

I have the same thoughts, and I've been playing a hell of lot longer than you have! I'm finally learning what's really going on as we play and what one needs on their face to maximize your playing potential.

[Levito]

Yep that’s my goal with this. Is to no longer feel lost and no longer feel like I don’t have a clue of what’s going on. Hopefully it’s going well for you.

[Cmillar]

Yep that’s my goal with this. Is to no longer feel lost and no longer feel like I don’t have a clue of what’s going on. Hopefully it’s going well for you.

Follow Doug's advice and you'll save what would be thousands of dollars on mouthpieces over the years....just use what he recommends and sell the rest!

Stick to it, and give yourself time to adapt and re-build. Have fun and good luck!

[Cas]

Hey everyone! I’m a student trombone player who has been playing for about 6 years now. I got braces about 4 years ago and braces as a whole have probably been one of the worst experiences of my life. My embouchure was a total mess, my tone was terrible, my technique was garbage, I have zero range. It was horrible. I honestly wouldn’t have even realized this if I hadn’t switched teachers about 3-4 months ago. I’m that time I’ve been able to establish a much better tone as well as an infinitely better low register. However I struggle a lot in the upper register. To top it all off, last week I got my braces off. I was excited for this because I would be able to play for as long as I wanted pain free and with a good foundation for my technique. This was not at all the case.

The day after I got my braces off I couldn’t play a middle F and although it ducked I progressed throughout the week. Now I’m at the point where my low register sounds great and is in very good shape, but my middle register which is C in the bass clef staff to F above the staff is a little thin and difficult to play as I go higher up. My high register is literally non existent. The moment I try to play higher than an F my mouthpiece pressure goes crazy and no amount of blowing will help get those notes out.

Long story short- I have a lot of problems with my playing and my embouchure and technique and I don’t know what to do and I haven’t been able to meet with my teacher the last few weeks because of scheduling issues. I’ve heard Doug Elliott is the best of the best and has helped a lot of you guys out. Should I try and get a lesson with him, because at this point I don’t really know what else to do.

Sorry for the long rant, and thanks!

100%. I've learned (as a student) to take every opportunity to learn from musicians like him as I can and it has done nothing but good for my knowledge and playing. The wonderful thing is with these amazing musicians is that even if it doesn't solve your particular issue, you still learn SOMETHING out of it that you wouldnt from anyone else. Theres my two cents, bottom line is go for it!

[dembones]

In my personal experience, if you have a reason to ask the question, "should I take a lesson with Doug?" the answer is ALWAYS yes.

[Geordie]

Snip
Follow Doug's advice and you'll save what would be thousands of dollars on mouthpieces over the years....just use what he recommends and sell the rest!
Snip

Exactly how I paid for the Doug mouthpiece that has been fantastic for me - sold all those other brands I’d accumulated.

[Matt K]

Snip
Follow Doug's advice and you'll save what would be thousands of dollars on mouthpieces over the years....just use what he recommends and sell the rest!
Snip

Exactly how I paid for the Doug mouthpiece that has been fantastic for me - sold all those other brands I’d accumulated.

In my experience, this is a very temporary remedy

[Glennlewis]

The answer is yes. I took a lesson two years ago when I returned to serious playing and formal musical study. Helped me with my range and and understanding how my face works in relation to playing. Note I’ve been working with a private instructor continually also.

But, I need to call you again Doug and have you take a another look and listen. Maybe this time I’m ready to consider a mouthpiece.

Honestly, at a minimum it’s a great hour or so of mentorship.

[JeffBone44]

Absolutely 100% yes. I've had three lessons with Doug, and they were the most valuable that I've ever had. It's been a few years, and I'm thinking that it's time for lesson #4.

[Tomingoode]

I'll throw in here too...I've had one lesson with Doug and will surely be going back for more. Initially he made changes to my way of blowing the horn that well, made it almost impossible to play the horn...but I stuck with what he was trying to get me to do and I am making some real progress, and it has mostly solved the problem I went to him to resolve and have progressed well beyond where I was when I went to him for help. Even my wife says so and she doesn't usually notice things unless she gets slapped in the face with it. So yeah, lessons with Doug, Its on the to do list and the must do list.

[mnbone]

I'll add to the suggestions, the simple answer: YES.

I've had two lessons with Doug, he's very approachable and patient, so don't worry about feeling "not good enough" to take a lesson. He set me on a solid path, and I've definitely improved. If you are on the fence, don't hesitate.

[edromine90]

Yes sir you should get a lesson with Elliot.