TromboneChat

Does anyone know if you can get Heavy weight F Attachment valve caps that fit either a 42BO or a 50B3?

I made my own "heavy cap" by inserting a fender washer on top of the bearing plate and screwing down the cap. The fender washer was steel and added at least an ounce to the cap. The hole in the fender washer was able to fit around the bearing and the outer diameter was about the size of the bearing plate.

What is the effect of a heavier valve cap?
Is it audible - to the player? To the audience?
Is this effect consistent from one valve type/ brand to another?
Do most manufacturers offer options of different weight valve caps?

I have also always wondered whether a valve cap makes any noticeable difference; does it?

I know it's quite common for trumpeters to sometimes add heavy caps to some, or sometimes all, valves, but though I can assume that the air flow in a trumpet is more nimble, and thus more easily manipulated, I have never noticed any difference as an outside listener to those trumpeters.

The difference in the playing feel, is such a subjective matter, that I can't add anything, since I've never tried a heavy cap on a trombone or a trumpet.

I found no difference from the simulated heavy cap I made with the fender washer. I know there are people who are convinced that they are doing magical things. Maybe for them they are. Not for me.

Everything makes a difference. Mass and weight variations anywhere on the horn change the way it both plays and sounds. That difference my be subtle, or not.

When I was testing out components for my new Stephens Horn, switching from a standard weight valve cap to a heavier annealed valve cap did make a slight difference. The horn felt a little more centered and locked in on partials, in a nice way. Now this wasn't a magic solution, but that extra .2% did make a positive difference.

I don't know if Bach sells them, but I've had Matt Frost make me several delrin valve covers. If you send him one, he can make it with exactly the same threads. I have delrin covers on all my horns. I don't notice much of a difference playing, but they look awesome and they're waaaaaay easier to clean than lacquered brass.

Going in the other direction, I fabricated a set of Lexan inner caps for the 2 piece caps for my Instrument Innovations valves on a Butler C-12 and noticed a huge difference in response and timbre. The response was not nearly as "crisp" as with the regular caps and the timbre darkened. It has become my default setup. The Butler is SO responsive that I think I might be trying to emulate favorite instruments from my past --- ?

I know heavy caps for Bach rotary valves used to be available somewhere. I see Dillon Music makes them for Bach trumpets; I would be surprised if they wouldn't do the same by request for trombones. It might cost you more than you want to spend though. I'll bet the people at Instrument Innovations would do it too - right up their alley.

As to the question of whether they do anything: they do. Can the audience hear it? Maybe. Can the player feel it? Probably. Is heavier better? Not necessarily; it depends on the player and the instrument.

I have 2 Shires bass trombone rotary valve sections, a single and a double inline, and I use both almost every day with the same model (though not identical, because nothing is identical) slides and bells around them. I have 4 valve caps: 2 brass at about 22 grams, 1 brass at about 15 grams, and one Alessi cap in Bronze, which weighs somewhere in between. Currently what I like is a 22g brass cap on the single, and on the double the 15g cap on the F rotor and a 22g cap on the Gb. Sometimes I like the bronze cap on the single, and I might go back to that.

I also reverse the orientation of the Gb valve slide on the double so there's a larger tubing gap on the intake side, but that's another topic...though as Will suggests, it's often about getting 2% improvement here and 1% improvement there.

Like Gabe and Matthew said, everything makes a difference. On my old Bach 50, I used a brass washer underneath the Gb valve cap for a while. That horn (gold bell, lightweight slide, open leadpipe) felt very open, so it helped with articulation, and it kept the sound from “getting away from me,” or getting too bright too quickly.

I still have that bell and slide, but I now use a yellow Corporation bell, a regular weight slide, a regular leadpipe, as well as Instrument Innovations valves. I tried the washer again just for fun but it felt too “stiff.” Slurs and flexibility exercises were difficult due to a “locked in” feeling—the target of each note was very narrow.

Both valves are ported, these heavy caps help center the pitch it seems. Scott didn't take any measurements on paper. These rotors stock would be .591. Seems way to small.

Brass Lab used to sell heavy caps.

Yeah it makes a difference! Mostly in response

As previously stated, EVERYTHING makes a difference in the sound and response of a trombone. I was first introduced to heavy valve caps when I visited Chuck McAlexander's Brass Lab shop back in the 1990s. I bought quite a few of them from Chuck and eventually started making my own.

I naturally play with a bright sound, so the heavy rotor caps help give my sound more density, darkness and core. I like to have multiple rotor caps for my horns so that I can fine-tune the response and sound. Currently, I am doing experiments on a Benge 190F that I rebuilt last year.

Below are the two caps I currently have for that Benge, one of them has minimal weight and the other is rather heavy. The heavy cap (.310 inch thick and almost the same diameter as the entire cap) is actually a weight that Chuck McAlexander originally made for a Bach rotor cap. For me the heavy cap is slightly too much weight and makes the instrument play rather heavy-handed. I have nick-named that cap the "Benge Thor." The other cap is a bit too light and permits the Benge to brighten up too much when I play forte and louder. Sometime soon, I will probably make a cap that is halfway between these two and I am hoping it will become my "go to" rotor cap for this particular horn.

For the original poster, I recommend that you connect with your local technician and make a couple of heavy caps so you can start testing the impact. You will need to purchase extra valve caps and request very specific dimensions for the weights. I recommend that you do not go any thicker than .330 inch. For me, that was a critical point at which the weight started to hinder the response and made it so that the instrument did not respond to softer playing very well.

https://trombonechat.com/download/file. ... w&id=15939

Matt K wrote: ↑Wed Aug 24, 2022 9:27 am I don't know if Bach sells them, but I've had Matt Frost make me several delrin valve covers. If you send him one, he can make it with exactly the same threads.

I'm working with Matt Frost to have some of these made. Did you specify a particular weight to aim for, or just made-to-spec as the original size and let weight fall where it may?

GabrielRice wrote: ↑Wed Aug 24, 2022 10:04 am I'll bet the people at Instrument Innovations would do it too - right up their alley.

When I checked with them back in October, they weren't doing these.

GabrielRice wrote: ↑Wed Aug 24, 2022 10:04 am I have 4 valve caps: 2 brass at about 22 grams, 1 brass at about 15 grams, and one Alessi cap in Bronze, which weighs somewhere in between. Currently what I like is a 22g brass cap on the single, and on the double the 15g cap on the F rotor and a 22g cap on the Gb.

Really appreciate the weights! I weighed my Instrument Innovations valve cover right at 22 grams (on my probably-not-very-accurate kitchen scale). I imagine the Delrin covers of a similar size will be much lighter.

I'm also thinking of having some heavier ones made for comparison against the originals and the Delrin ones.

Crazy4Tbone86 wrote: ↑Wed Aug 24, 2022 8:54 pm I recommend that you do not go any thicker than .330 inch. For me, that was a critical point at which the weight started to hinder the response and made it so that the instrument did not respond to softer playing very well.

The dimensions here are helpful, but it seems like finding that magic thickness would be somewhat dependent upon the specific valve, since different models/designs can have fairly different diameters. How much does "Benge Thor" weigh?

Mine are a lot thicker than the originals. I like my valve covers to the one plane, rather than having the little circle in the middle stick out. So I had Matt make mine as thick as the thickest point. But like you said, since they’re delrin, they’re WAY lighter than brass ones. I’ve thought about having one made with a brass washer or something that could go under the cover, but I haven’t had much time to compare the original covers which are heavier. My recollection is that I didn’t notice much of a change with valve covers when I swapped.

Anyone out there with a double valve horn and time on their hands can really twist their brains into a knot by only using one heavy cap at a time on alternating valves. I certainly sense the difference on my Butler C-12 which responds considerably to the changes. I totally agree with comments that think the most obvious outcome of the exercise is to the player's experience regarding response and with little impact on the sound produced.

Everything make differences. Surely small weight difference of 1g can't be perceived by player or listener, but a difference of 20/25g beetwen caps, change instrument response and ergonomic side. Generally, I believe, less weight helps with brightness and articulation and more free blowing playing; from the other side, heavy cups helps to have broader and wider sound, but create more resistence and tends to have late response in the attacks. I also think is personal thing, and the choice should balance the type of player you are.

Sorry Muschem. It appears that my wife threw away our kitchen scale (she is very anti-clutter). Therefore I cannot presently weigh any of my “heavy” rotor caps.

I wanted just a little more mass on my rotary valve euph. I found some brass washers that fit under the valve caps. I originally just wanted to try it before looking and paying for something. Sounded so good and worked so well, I just left it that way. Been 6 -8 years.

I received my new valve caps from Matt Frost (Frost Custom Brass) yesterday. Matt was great to work with, and he did an excellent job on these. I believe he has the measurements on file for the Instrument Innovations valves now, in case anyone else is interested in having some made for theirs. I went with a design similar to what Matt K described above (i.e. outer surface flush with the thickest point).

For reference, my original cap weighed in at 22g (on the aforementioned kitchen scale of questionable accuracy). I've since compared some different Instrument Innovations valve caps, and I found some that weigh as little as 18g. The new delrin cap weighs 14g on the same scale (lighter, as expected, despite being significantly thicker), and the brass heavy cap comes in at a whopping 76g. I definitely hear and feel a difference between all of them, and they are all interesting in their own ways.