TromboneChat

Hello,

I‘m searching for a while for some information about Conn basstrombone with gold brass bell. I know some or maybe all 70H Fuchs and the 70H Noah is selling at the moment were made with gold brass bells, but were some other models made with a gold brass bell?

60h, 62h (Vintage and modern) 83h, 110h, 111h,112h all have gold/rose bells. Some 72H’s are out there with them as well. Most 71 and 73h’s are yellow brass. but there are a few rose brass ones out there.

The alloy used by Conn was 90/10 copper/zinc for the 6X, 1XX, 83, 88.

The names "rose", gold", etc are not specific enough in this context, there are alloys of 80/20 and 85/15, which are both called either "rose" or "gold" depending on who you speak to.

The 7X series had yellow brass, 70/30 alloy. There are no "gold brass" 7X series bells that I'm aware of.

There were "some" of the Fuchs model 70H which had a "less red" alloy than 90/10.

The horn that Noah has for sale looks to have a 90/10 bell, with "less red" (could be 80/20 or 85/15) valve section tubing.

hornbuilder wrote: ↑Wed Jul 27, 2022 10:39 pm The alloy used by Conn was 90/10 copper/zinc for the 6X, 1XX, 83, 88.

The names "rose", gold", etc are not specific enough in this context, there are alloys of 80/20 and 85/15, which are both called either "rose" or "gold" depending on who you speak to.

The 7X series had yellow brass, 70/30 alloy. There are no "gold brass" 7X series bells that I'm aware of.

There were "some" of the Fuchs model 70H which had a "less red" alloy than 90/10.

Matt, my 1934 70H has a very light gold colour when polished. A little more than 80/20 ? That's what Max Thein thought when he saw it.

Yes, the Fuchs 70H's had some potential degree of variance in the bell material used. I don't know if anyone has done any analysis of the material to know for sure what it was. Mike Szabo also has a "gold" bell Fuchs, so they are out there.

But "I" have not seen any of the later Conn models in anything but 90/10 red or 70/30 yellow.

hornbuilder wrote: ↑Wed Jul 27, 2022 10:39 pm The alloy used by Conn was 90/10 copper/zinc for the 6X, 1XX, 83, 88.

The names "rose", gold", etc are not specific enough in this context, there are alloys of 80/20 and 85/15, which are both called either "rose" or "gold" depending on who you speak to.

The 7X series had yellow brass, 70/30 alloy. There are no "gold brass" 7X series bells that I'm aware of.

Thanks for the clarification, Matthew.

I think of these (imprecisely, I guess) as
• Rose Brass (90/10) - my Conn 88H and Olds O-25 (termed "Re-O-Loy Red Brass" by Olds, I think)
• Gold Brass (80/20) - not sure if I have any
• Yellow Brass (70/30) - my Conn 71H, Conn 6H, and King 2B - and most Bach and Yamaha trombones

Posaunus wrote: ↑Thu Jul 28, 2022 12:02 pm

hornbuilder wrote: ↑Wed Jul 27, 2022 10:39 pm The alloy used by Conn was 90/10 copper/zinc for the 6X, 1XX, 83, 88.

The names "rose", gold", etc are not specific enough in this context, there are alloys of 80/20 and 85/15, which are both called either "rose" or "gold" depending on who you speak to.

The 7X series had yellow brass, 70/30 alloy. There are no "gold brass" 7X series bells that I'm aware of.

Thanks for the clarification, Matthew.

I think of these (imprecisely, I guess) as
• Rose Brass (90/10) - my Conn 88H and Olds O-25 (termed "Re-O-Loy Red Brass" by Olds, I think)
• Gold Brass (80/20) - not sure if I have any
• Yellow Brass (70/30) - my Conn 71H, Conn 6H, and King 2B - and most Bach and Yamaha trombones

I think you’ll find the 90/10 versions far more commonly noted as “red” and not “rose” or “gold”.

The joys of translating marketing to specifications.

I have people skills, $#&@$-it!

Cheers,
Andy

Bach' gold brass is 80/20. Tedd Waggoner referred to it as "red brass", but it most certainly is NOT 90/10

Many people know of both Conn and Holton as having "Rose brass" bells, due to marketing, but they were both 90/10, for the vast majority of their red colored bells.

Then there is 85/15..

hornbuilder wrote: ↑Thu Jul 28, 2022 1:43 pmThen there is 85/15..

Ahh yes... which Rath and Shires call "Gold Brass", while Edwards / Getzen calls it "Rose Brass", and the foundries call C23000 "Red Brass".

Or, one of my suppliers calls it "Rich Low Brass"

I’ll leave it to you smarter folks about alloys and market names. The ratios are far more definitive but of course what marketeer would want to use a ratio when “red brass” or “red brass” sounds so much nicer? To a geologist such as I used to be, it’s like when I hear the term “moonstone” is used, but the actual mineral is labradorite (or to get really geeky, it’s a cacium-rich plagioclase)

OK, I’ll stop now, please to continue the conversation. My head hurts.

We had a really good thread about this on the old TTF where I supplied an MSDS with alloy numbers and Mill names for alloys marketted by various different names by the musical instrument manufactueres. Here is a synopsis:

C110 pure copper. Reynold contempora bass tb bells, conn coprion (electroformed)

C210. Cu95% ZN 5% Commercially called gilding metal, this is used on some German trombone bells, possibly Voigt altos

C510 CU94.8%, SN 5%, P.02% A phosphor tin bronze used in 1920s and 1930s "red" conns. More copper colored that the surrounding sheet metal made of C220, see below. Only used in drawn tubing, such as slide tubes and F attachment wraps.

C220. CU90%, ZN10% commonly referred to as red brass, but industrially as commercial bronze even though its a true brass. All older Conns used this alloy on 88H, 62H, some Fuchs 70Hs, some non fuchs 70Hs (like my old horn), Olds Recordings, Olds GR basses, and some pre elkhart Bachs have this alloy (Mostly 50s and 45s)

C230 CU85%, ZN15% labeled as rose brass by Edwards, this alloy is called "red brass" by mills and is available in both seamless drawn and sheet metal. The name confusion comes as Germans often call this Goldmessing, versus the next alloy which Bach calls gold brass C240. Used in Edwards bells, Shires "gold brass" bells and tuning slides, Kanstul "red brass bells", and modern King rose bells.

C240. CU80%, ZN20% Gold brass sometimes commercially called "low" brass. This alloy is incredibly rare these days and is used by Bach on their bells. Be aware the Artisan tuning slide is almost certainly C230, I own one, its not the same color as my Bach gold brass bells. Weril also uses C240 alloy in its bells. Bach used to draw slide tubes in this metal, but it hasnt been confirmed by any analysis of the alloy.

C260. CU70%, ZN30% common yellow brass

C360. Common leaded yellow brass used in mouthpieces and valve casings.

I speculated that Conn trumpet brass may be made of C250 CU75% ZN25%, but this has never been confirmed.

Matt, many 1930s and 40s "Yellow" 70Hs had gold brass bells and J bends with the remainder made of C260 yellow brass. Its the only circumstance of Conns with gold brass I have seen. Mike Szabos 70H fuchs was a special order as most were red brass at that point, but the 1930s small 70Hs up until about 1950 tended to have gold brass bells and J bends. Gabe Rice has one, and I have seen a few myself. Its really subtle with old darkened lacquer.

Anyways,

Hope that helps people. When ordering metal alloy numbers are your friend.

Benn

My '35 70H (small bell) is definitely yellow. I've not seen many later 70's in anything other than yellow. But (seemingly) just to prove a point, I do have one here (1950's according to the serial) at present which is "gold". It is small bell, but has the seamed flare, too, which is a first for me on a small bell 70H. Another special order, perhaps?

hornbuilder wrote: ↑Fri Jul 29, 2022 1:13 pm My '35 70H (small bell) is definitely yellow. I've not seen many later 70's in anything other than yellow. But (seemingly) just to prove a point, I do have one here (1950's according to the serial) at present which is "gold". It is small bell, but has the seamed flare, too, which is a first for me on a small bell 70H. Another special order, perhaps?

My 1940 small bell 70H has a seamed flare, and both the bell and back branch are slightly darker than the valve tubing (which looks to me like standard 70/30 yellow brass).

Thanks for the mentions….yes my Fuchs is indeed a special order and has the (*) under the serial number. It’s got a gold brass J bend and bell and yellow brass slide and valve tubes. Because of the contrasting yellow valve tubes the gold brass is very obviously gold and not red or rose. It’s a freaking awesome horn

Cheers
Mike

I have a 1927 Conn 70h that is has silver plating. Should I expect that it will have red brass?

My 21 Fuchs 70h as well as my ,34 70h , 70 62h, 24 82h, 24 18h, 59 8h, 63 88h, and 66 35h are all C220. There in lies the secret.

miketrombone wrote: ↑Mon Aug 08, 2022 7:05 pm Thanks for the mentions….yes my Fuchs is indeed a special order and has the (*) under the serial number. It’s got a gold brass J bend and bell and yellow brass slide and valve tubes. Because of the contrasting yellow valve tubes the gold brass is very obviously gold and not red or rose. It’s a freaking awesome horn

Cheers
Mike

Mike, Conn had something they called «french brass»..The 6 «Fuchs» basses they made on special order for the Philadelphia orchestra were made to match the sound og the French Besson trumpets..Very possible that You own one of those six..

Just a quick aside: What is the "E.Q. Brass" or "E.Q. Br." mentioned on Bach shop cards for the outer slide tubes?

tbonesullivan wrote: ↑Fri May 17, 2024 7:13 am Just a quick aside: What is the "E.Q. Brass" or "E.Q. Br." mentioned on Bach shop cards for the outer slide tubes?

I've always thought it meant "extra quality brass" but not sure I've ever seen that confirmed.

slipmo wrote: ↑Fri May 17, 2024 10:32 pm

tbonesullivan wrote: ↑Fri May 17, 2024 7:13 am Just a quick aside: What is the "E.Q. Brass" or "E.Q. Br." mentioned on Bach shop cards for the outer slide tubes?

I've always thought it meant "extra quality brass" but not sure I've ever seen that confirmed.

Yeah, and what would that even mean? I guess that's up there with "things we'll never really know" about vintage bach trombones.

Part of me is now thinking about how in the later 19th century, it was popular to reuse things like old nails, horse shoes, nail stubs etc to make spiral forged gun barrels out of as they were stronger, and looked cool.

Tbarh wrote: ↑Fri May 17, 2024 6:13 am

miketrombone wrote: ↑Mon Aug 08, 2022 7:05 pm Thanks for the mentions….yes my Fuchs is indeed a special order and has the (*) under the serial number. It’s got a gold brass J bend and bell and yellow brass slide and valve tubes. Because of the contrasting yellow valve tubes the gold brass is very obviously gold and not red or rose. It’s a freaking awesome horn

Cheers
Mike

Mike, Conn had something they called «french brass»..The 6 «Fuchs» basses they made on special order for the Philadelphia orchestra were made to match the sound og the French Besson trumpets..Very possible that You own one of those six..

Oh, now that is something VERY interesting, I haven’t heard this before! Any more info you have I would love to hear it!

M

miketrombone wrote: ↑Tue May 21, 2024 7:31 am

Tbarh wrote: ↑Fri May 17, 2024 6:13 am
Mike, Conn had something they called «french brass»..The 6 «Fuchs» basses they made on special order for the Philadelphia orchestra were made to match the sound og the French Besson trumpets..Very possible that You own one of those six..

Oh, now that is something VERY interesting, I haven’t heard this before! Any more info you have I would love to hear it!

M

Unfortunately ,i do not not much more than This.. Trumpeters are usually more «gearheads» and i suppose that the french Besson trumpets preceding Vincent Bach ‘s early trumpets are iconic ..I bet there is some trumpeter around that can give You a (probably much too long)lecture on «french brass».. BTW ! Do You have a serial number for Your Fuchs?.. I have heared that the 6 «Philadelphia-Fuchses» were built in the thirties..

Tbarh wrote: ↑Tue May 21, 2024 8:12 am

miketrombone wrote: ↑Tue May 21, 2024 7:31 am

Oh, now that is something VERY interesting, I haven’t heard this before! Any more info you have I would love to hear it!

M

Unfortunately ,i do not not much more than This.. Trumpeters are usually more «gearheads» and i suppose that the french Besson trumpets preceding Vincent Bach ‘s early trumpets are iconic ..I bet there is some trumpeter around that can give You a (probably much too long)lecture on «french brass».. BTW ! Do You have a serial number for Your Fuchs?.. I have heared that the 6 «Philadelphia-Fuchses» were built in the thirties..

No problem, thanks…..my serial # is 241114 which dates to 1927. One further wrinkle to add, some years ago I was in touch with one of my counterparts in NZ who also owns a Fuchs which he believes was one of the horns ordered by Philly, but was made in 1921. His horn is also gold brass or yellow, it’s hard to tell by the pics he sent me. He received a letter when he bought it telling the story. Love these old horns

miketrombone wrote: ↑Wed May 22, 2024 4:48 am

Tbarh wrote: ↑Tue May 21, 2024 8:12 am
Unfortunately ,i do not not much more than This.. Trumpeters are usually more «gearheads» and i suppose that the french Besson trumpets preceding Vincent Bach ‘s early trumpets are iconic ..I bet there is some trumpeter around that can give You a (probably much too long)lecture on «french brass».. BTW ! Do You have a serial number for Your Fuchs?.. I have heared that the 6 «Philadelphia-Fuchses» were built in the thirties..

No problem, thanks…..my serial # is 241114 which dates to 1927. One further wrinkle to add, some years ago I was in touch with one of my counterparts in NZ who also owns a Fuchs which he believes was one of the horns ordered by Philly, but was made in 1921. His horn is also gold brass or yellow, it’s hard to tell by the pics he sent me. He received a letter when he bought it telling the story. Love these old horns

I am not 100% positive on the production year of the Philadelphia -Fuchs specimens but 1927 could be right..
I have a 1920 Conn «Symphony -Large» and a 1924 model 78H ,Both all red brass.. A friend of mine has a Red brass «Fuchs» from 1921 . This one has the valve wrap with the long tuning slide(«Conn wrap»).. Very similar to the one owned by Jeff Reynolds. I have not seen a yellow brass Conn from This period.The Yellow brass Horns came in the thirties, and are usually more lightweight. I used to own a Conn 70 H from 1934 that i suppose had the same coloured brass as Yours in the bell only. Although the warm , «chesty»,almost human voice like sound i Get from red brass Horns from This period ,i also loved the sound from This Horn.. The Conn guys really had it back then..

Just to add confusion, this Fuchs from ‘24 looks pretty darned yellow…

In the end I found it: the Conn basstrombone with gold brass bell. It‘s a 70H Fuchs from 1927. Pretty cool horn.