TromboneChat

Hi All,

I'm playing the trombone for over a year now and had lessons with a teacher.
The problem I encounter is that when I play with a band, I can't hear myself and that results in zero musical output. It's like my embouchure disappears and just simply can't play anymore.

It's not like I'm afraid of playing on stage or before public.
I know my general hearing is not that good, but not hearing my self playing with a band worries me a bit.

Anyone had this before?
Sadly my teacher stopped teaching so I can't ask him about this.

Greetings,
Floeske.

Hi

I'm sorry to say this is a common problem. It has happend to me at many concerts. At rehearsals it is possible to sit in a square which is good because you have noone playing in your ears from behind. In concert situations trumpets is in the back and saxophones in the front and trombones in between. Trumpets are standing behind us. Saxophones hear a lot of trumpets and trombones and therefore see to they get one microphone each so they can be heard, and their solos can be heard. Trombones play in the back of saxes, and without complaining much..

In a good day first and third trombone can hear the whole section and the 2:and trombone can only hear 1st. The 4th can hear 3:rd and 1:st, it is how it use to be.
To hear yourself? Well, I've been told I'm heard by the ones next to me even I don't hear my self very well. I don't know what to do, Bad sound environment is just something I've learned to accept. I often can't hear myself and also can't hear much of the others.

/Tom

Not having heard you, I'm going to venture a guess that your tone production is not what it should be.

I'm going to guess that you are making a small, congested sound that is audible when you are by yourself but easily covered over in a group.

That's what I was like as a first year player (and later) and if our beginner band had had more than 15 people and if they had not all been as weak as I was I wouldn't have heard myself either.

This is a common problem and could be the result of many variables, including but not limited to: the venue, indoor versus outdoor, the direction of sound from other musicians, your particular equipment, your volume versus the volume of others around you…..etc…..

A trick that I use quite often is…..aiming my bell directly at the large surface of the music stand. The sound bouncing back at you should give you a better idea of the sound you are producing. The only problem with this is, while improving feedback, less sound is getting out to the audience (or to the conductor in a rehearsal situation).

Sounds like your band is literally "not on the same wavelength". If you are a new player, or even a very experienced player, your sound will be affected by the sound of other players around you, especially if they are out of tune. An out of tune note with a lot of energy will actually cancel out a majority of the waves in your own sound. Likewise if you are out of tune, the "in-tune" sound around you will cancel out your own sound. You can do the same thing with speakers, a speaker that has the polarity reversed, playing the same track into a regular speaker, will actually cancel itself out in a recording. People use this to cancel our backing tracks during recording sessions, with mixed results.

This is why, in a hall with good acoustics, with good players, it actually becomes easier to play. Wavelengths that are in sync with each other actually increase the size of each wave, making it easier to play. Even for a player alone, in a good hall, the reflections of their own sound will bolster themselves.

I've experienced this in a BQ, where you have a solid group, but one day there is a sub. All of a sudden everyone is getting tired and over playing.

Don't take my word for it. Ian Bousfield wrote a few pages about this in his book.

I'm guessing this is your problem. There are other ways to help hear yourself, like using an unsoldered bell or a lightweight mouthpiece. But these won't really help if it's the group as a whole causing the problem.

harrisonreed wrote: ↑Fri Jul 08, 2022 7:33 pm I've experienced this in a BQ, where you have a solid group, but one day there is a sub. All of a sudden everyone is getting tired and over playing.
...

.... But these won't really help if it's the group as a whole causing the problem.

Yes, absolutely right. Out of tune playing by the group and overblowing instruments completely ruins the sound environment. It gets worse when sound engineers place mics at saxes and turn up volume on those and on the bass and electric piano. As I said trombones play in the back of saxes which suck much of the sound. Then trumpets blow their brains out in our ears. I've done quite a lot of those gigs as a sub. Audiences is happy, cheering and dancing all night long. Nobody cares whether a part is heard or not.
At those gigs there are a couple of choices.
1) blow your brains out to be able to hear yourself but that will probably not be a difference in the room since you have no mic. The saxes will hear you and if you play well you might get the next call.
2) play softer which means you do not hear yourself but on the other hand it doesn't matter to the audience. You might still get the next call if you play well since saxes and the leader hear you. Don't forget to bring out your solos, because there it matters. This is what I try to do, to handle this like a pro and not contribute to an even worse environment. Play your part with your best sound as would be expected of you as a hired professional
3) use earplugs.With earplugs you will hear more of yourself thru the bones in the skull. Most players start to play a lot softer when they use earplugs and also often out of tune which means saxes can hear you are having intonation issues.
4) insist on having mics on the trombonesection too and then you will hear the trombonesection in the monitors. If you are a sub you will probably not get the next call if you do because you are making a scene of something nobody else cares about.
5) insist of no mics and ask the rythm section to lower their gain. You do this and you will certainly not get the next call.
6) don't do these gigs.

If all play in tune and no one have a mic then there would be easy to hear yourself. That would be a dream! Not all gigs are like this, but at dance-gigs audience like high volume apparently because of reaction. I think they want to feel the bass pumping in their chest to be able to dance.. The band need to use earplugs.

As others have said if you can not produce a sound that projects that could also be a reason why your voice is not heard. To me that is not a problem, but it could be to another person. Since the OP has played just for one year then there can be a myriad of reasons that has to do with technique. The title of this thread applies to many aspects of not being able to hear what one is doing in a band (big band) situation.

/Tom

imsevimse wrote: ↑Sat Jul 09, 2022 4:36 am ...
3) use earplugs.With earplugs you will hear more of yourself thru the bones in the skull.
...
/Tom

Yes, and a variation. Spend some time with a practice mute or practicing with earplugs. Then you can learn what your head noises sound like, and then you may be better able to hear those while in a band. Head noises are actually pretty loud. I think we generally learn to tune them out. But learn to tune them in.

Depending on the orchestration and the room, for some situations I get a better balance not hearing myself. There is also a 2nd trumpet player who sometimes lays his bell off in my ear. After one such rehearsal, when he amplified the effect by placing his flat music stand horizontally just below my right ear, there was roaring in my ears for two weeks. Why he places his bell was less than 4 inches (10cm) from my ear I don’t know. When he does this the only way to hear anything at all is to put earplugs in. The 1st chair player can really cover the high notes and is much more considerate.

Everyone has different ear shapes. (Duh). Sometimes a cheap safety earplug will do better at noise canceling or have better versatility than expensive custom molded and filtered earplugs. If the earplug is not being used for hearing protection, the cheap earplug can be pulled out of the ear until the desired feedback is achieved. I use caution and fully engage the earplug as designed when operating a chainsaw, tractor, or airplane. In those cases I sometimes add Mickey Mouse ears for double protection (2 x (28 dB)).

The yellow reusable earplugs that come with a 1.25 inch (3cm) diameter, blue carrying case and have “ear” printed on them are cheap, readily available, washable, and sufficient for me.

There are good suggestions here, and I would just add occasionally recording yourself in both your rehearsals and your personal practicing, so you can hear exactly what is happening (and not just what you perceive is happening in the moment). Also, if you get the opportunity, try to play duets, trios, etc. with other players - even just for short periods of time (or record one duet part and play the second part with the playback of the recording). It will help you learn to better hear yourself and others, without the added distraction and noise of the full ensemble.