Helping a student play in tune

[Mamaposaune]

I'm wondering if anyone has suggestions on helping my adult student improve his intonation. He took up the trombone after retirement, and has now been playing for about 5 years. I have been coaching him for almost a year, his 1st teacher felt that he had done all he could.
He practices and plays in an amateur jazz band. There has been progress in range, tone and reading rhythms, but the thing he struggles most with is playing in tune. My approach so far has been to have him warm up with a slow, lyrical etude then play through some arpeggios while checking his pitches with a tuner. Sometimes I'll play the root of the chord as a drone, so he can listen and tune the intervals.
He's working out of the Earnest Clarke and Cancone method books, both of which drill intervals and chords with enjoyable melodies. We also play duets,, sometimes he will work on one between lessons. His pitches are all over the place, but when I stop him and call out the tuning issues, he seems able to make a short-term improvement - for ex. focusing in on a 4-bar phrase, and looking at how the notes fit into a scale or chord.
There is no keyboard at his house, or I would make use of that. Maybe he just needs more time, or maybe it is a bit late to develop good relative pitch? Ideas welcome!

[Burgerbob]

How does he do when singing the same melody?

[Mamaposaune]

He is self-conscious about singing, so I don't push it.
I had a thought that I hesitated to put in my post, let's see if I can make this clear:
If he really just doesn't hear pitches well, I wonder if he can "memorize" what each note sounds like - a quality of tone seperate from hearing where the pitch is? I think the "Develop Perfect Pitch" program that someone used to advertise on the back page of the AFof M publication suggested this. (I was skeptical and never ordered it)

[Doug Elliott]

Any work on ear training is worthwhile.
Play with a drone... slowly, with concentration, maybe most of the time. There are drone apps for a phone.
Use a tuner app like TE Tuner, it can help a lot to visualize at the same time as hearing and playing in tune.

Some people hear pitches slightly (or more) differently in both ears, and that is confusing to develop good pitch sense. Playing with earplugs (one or both, try each side separately) can help develop better pitch hearing. And/or listening to the drone in one ear or the other while playing.

If he doesn't have good clear sound on the horn, that can contribute to not hearing good clear pitch. Chop issues, mouthpiece choice? Many possibilities.

[ithinknot]

He is self-conscious about singing, so I don't push it.

Obviously, read the room and keep everyone happy - but, within those constraints, maybe push it a little?

More-or-less everyone acts a bit self-conscious about singing, especially adults, but if you're clear about what's going to (briefly!) happen and its purpose, it might be fine. Also, crucially, you sing to him - makes it much more comfortable. So even just single notes - you sing a pitch or very short phrase, he sings it, then you both buzz it on the mouthpiece, then find it on the instrument. If he really won't sing, then skip to the buzzing. (Obviously, this isn't 'about' buzzing, it's just about matching pitch without partials or right arms getting involved.)

Or there's always whistling... You'll find a way in.

[harrisonreed]

Intonation is very difficult to teach, because it's tied to "teaching" someone to have a good ear. Step one is being able to play in tune with a tuner, and using glisses (not the face) to move the pitch. Another way of saying that is that he needs to learn that the chops should only ever play "in the slot" and how the chops are interacting with the horn is dependent on where the slide is (and what partial they are in) -- the opposite is not true: the chops don't buzz the correct pitch first, with the slide only in the ballpark of what is right. It's a hard lesson. This is one of my biggest reasons to not buzz -- what the face does is interact in a specific way with different lengths of pipes to play smack dab in the middle of the slot. Everything your face has to do is dictated by that interaction. Anything else, including the remembered interactions with just the mouthpiece, fight the slot and introduce crud into the sound.

Step two is learning to play with a drone. For example, try playing an Eb scale over an Eb drone. When you get to Ab, hold that pitch over the drone until it's perfect with the drone. Then rearticulate that Ab so even the start and stops of that Ab are right in line with the Eb drone. Fall in love with the Ab. Then, try again on an E natural drone. Play the E scale and stop this time on G#. The G# should be noticably different, both in pitch and in where it is on the slide. "Wait G# and Ab aren't the same note?" Whoa, mind blown. Do each scale/drone a few more times. If he can't hear it, you might have bigger fish to fry.

You could also try the method adopted by {name and address withheld}, a very famous giver of masterclasses, and just keep asking the student "that's not where 5th position is, not even close. How can you not hear that?" until they run crying off the stage

[BGuttman]

One thing to check is whether he actually hears the tones he is producing. Older players with hearing aids or excessive ear wax buildup can have a problem hearing what is coming out of the bell.

I played in an amateur orchestra with a horn player whose playing could only be described as "divine" -- man blows in, God knows what comes out

[afugate]

The Intonation Repair Tool really helped me hear when I'm playing out of tune. Unfortunately, it's no longer sold.

The basic premise was to model a scale for the player and then have the player produce scalar pitches before having the in-tune pitch join whatever pitch the player was producing.

https://trombonechat.com/viewtopic.php?t=6570

--Andy in OKC

[boneagain]

I would pay particular attention to the Doug's comments about hearing pitches differently.
We can't teach good intonation, but we CAN calibrate observable physical characteristics.

I find using drones in earbuds or earphones to be nearly useless. Most of the "self" sound ends up coming through bone conduction, which has a different speed of sound than what comes through air.

Using a drone on a speaker turned up loud enough to cause audible beating has helped me in the past. I confess to having been surprised (even after decades of playing) how often something I KNEW I had in tune caused beating against a drone!

If the student has doubts about beating, one or two "bell on bell" exercises should make the point. The physics that make the bell shape so good at adapting lip buzz energy to room vibrations also works very well in reverse. Think of the horns of the original grammophone recorders.

With two bells facing each other two players can generate sufficient beating to be VERY clearly felt right back at the lips. This is usually more eye opening than just saying "listen for the beating."

Once the student gets ONE good solid toehold on what to FEEL as well as listen for, other training on longer and shorter note values should get more traction. In other words, once a calibration standard has been established, the rest should be less difficult.

[harrisonreed]

That brings up the whole point, maybe a can of worms, of rooms with bad accoustics messing with the wave in the trombone. Intonation is best learned in good acoustics

[calcbone]

The Intonation Repair Tool really helped me hear when I'm playing out of tune. Unfortunately, it's no longer sold.

The basic premise was to model a scale for the player and then have the player produce scalar pitches before having the in-tune pitch join whatever pitch the player was producing.

https://trombonechat.com/viewtopic.php?t=6570

--Andy in OKC

I hadn’t seen that before, but after looking at the video and a quick Google search… there is a similar free app on the Google Play store called “Intonation Repair Toolkit.” It does not include chords, but it does something similar with major and minor scales.

[GabrielRice]

Doug's point about hearing is especially relevant for older adults. I have played a lot over the last 15 years with a great, great tuba player who just retired. He sounded fantastic and played beautifully in tune all the way through our last concert together a couple of weeks ago, but he told me that he was having increasing trouble hearing his own intonation clearly while he was playing because of the pitch difference between his ears.

I went through a period of this myself about 10 years ago because of a "rare" medical condition that I'm not sure is quite as rare as my doctors said it was. It was maddening and made me seriously consider leaving the music profession.


Medical speculation aside, I do not use a tuner very much as an intonation tool for myself or with my students. I have two basic problems with tuners:

1. They do not measure tone color. Please don't suggest a strobe tuner. I've never understood how to use one and I don't intend to start now.

2. They are corrective, not prescriptive. Negative, not positive. "Here's how you're wrong." I don't find it useful to practice anything with that mindset.

The intonation tools I find useful are my ears and my voice. For the ears, I find a simple sleep mask or other blindfold to be incredibly useful to minimize distraction and perceive sound with more focus and clarity. As to the voice, I think your student needs to be gently made to understand that there is no substitute for singing.

One final suggestion: do you have a group of students he could join with to play quartets? A lot of what I learned about intonation and voice leading came from playing Bach chorales at the beginning of every trombone quartet rehearsal in college. My quartet used to sing together too...

[afugate]

The Intonation Repair Tool really helped me hear when I'm playing out of tune. Unfortunately, it's no longer sold.

The basic premise was to model a scale for the player and then have the player produce scalar pitches before having the in-tune pitch join whatever pitch the player was producing.

https://trombonechat.com/viewtopic.php?t=6570

--Andy in OKC

I hadn’t seen that before, but after looking at the video and a quick Google search… there is a similar free app on the Google Play store called “Intonation Repair Toolkit.” It does not include chords, but it does something similar with major and minor scales.

It does look like it includes a basic portion of what the Intonation Repair Tool offered. The app description doesn't indicate whether these are tuned scales or just equal temperament. Also, one thing I found very helpful was the CD tracks began the scalar patterns by playing the scale in 16ths so you could hear what you were going to attempt. Then it moved into the back-and-forth pattern.

If you're interested, I emailed Tom Kociela, the creator of the Intonation Repair Tool, about his product last fall. He said he discontinued the product but was making it available for free download to those who request it. His only request is that he be credited - and he deserves it. Message me and I'll share both the download link and his contact email. I suggest a courtesy email to him at the least, for his kindness and generosity in making this available.

I'm going to create a separate thread about this in one of the boards so we don't hijack this thread any further.

Edit: Here's the separate forum thread

--Andy in OKC

[robcat2075]

I very much like the original "Intonation Repair Tool" CD. I like the basic tactic of presenting the student with an audible context, challenging him to play the note that fits it, and then revealing that note, properly pitched for him to compare himself with. I have no knowledge of the current internet version mentioned above. If it is leaving out chords, it is omitting the most important part.

However, based on your description of your student, I believe the IRT is beyond him right now, a bit too theoretical in its manner. He could perhaps do the exercises but perhaps still not be able to apply it to ensemble playing.

Likewise for practicing with drones.

He needs a more practical task.

First, he needs practice in playing unison passages. He needs to be able to play moving unisons in tune before worrying about harmonies. He needs to practice that every day. How will he do that by himself?

This is the Dotzauer cello method. It is composed almost entirely of student-teacher duets like this...

Dotz05.jpg

I have transcribed the first volume into Musecore form for computer playback. Your student can play along with the top line to practice his unison tuning, in melodic passages much like are encountered in an ensemble.

The early exercises are slow, brief and repeatable, which is what I think your student needs to get started. Assign him one or two simple lines each week and get him practicing unison playing every day.

Of course, it's a cello method, not a trombone method... it is up to you to choose the ones that are suitable for his range and technique.

After he gets unison playing going reliably, then he could turn off the "Student" line and turn on the "Teacher" line and practice playing to those harmony notes.

I used to have this collection posted on the old TTF but that is gone now. I'll make another post on this forum.

[VJOFan]

Play with the student.

A lot.

Playing "in tune" is about playing with the folks around you. If the student learns to match the teacher's sound and intonation, they learn the skill that is used in any ensemble. They learn the sound and feel of playing in tune.

The teacher also gets an instant feel for how easy it is to match the student. As said above, poor sound production can mean there is no real pitch to match. If the teacher can't find the student's pitch then the first step is actually to just get a centered, sustained sound that can be grabbed onto by another player or allows the student to find others.

To develop a slightly different, but related point, a student has to recognize what in tune sounds like. With that, I don't like tuners until the concept of in tune is beginning to be found. Using a tuner to find octaves or chromatic motions may make sense (you can train your ear to recognize what those pure intervals should sound like relatively) but after that, so much depends on key relationship that for my money, drone training makes much more sense as a step after learning how an in tune unison with another player sounds/feels.

[Kbiggs]

Some people hear pitches slightly (or more) differently in both ears, and that is confusing to develop good pitch sense. Playing with earplugs (one or both, try each side separately) can help develop better pitch hearing. And/or listening to the drone in one ear or the other while playing.

Doug's point about hearing is especially relevant for older adults. I have played a lot over the last 15 years with a great, great tuba player who just retired. He sounded fantastic and played beautifully in tune all the way through our last concert together a couple of weeks ago, but he told me that he was having increasing trouble hearing his own intonation clearly while he was playing because of the pitch difference between his ears.

I went through a period of this myself about 10 years ago because of a "rare" medical condition that I'm not sure is quite as rare as my doctors said it was. It was maddening and made me seriously consider leaving the music profession.

This is very interesting. I didn’t know this happened to other people.

I started to develop tinnitus* a few years ago after a series of viruses and sinus infections. My tinnitus that usually gets worse when I have a cold, allergy season, or when I’m stressed. I too have slightly different pitches in my ears. For me, it’s more a difference in tone color or quality—my right seems to pick up higher frequencies a little better, and my left is the opposite—but there is a pitch difference.

I will experiment around with consciously listening with one ear or the other. Any thoughts on using an earplug or a one-sided earphone to help dampen one ear?



*Did you ever notice how odd it is, the way doctors pronounce some words? For example, they say TIN-i-tus, whereas we mortals say tin-I-tus.

[Kbiggs]

I have the Long Tone Duets by Ralph Sauer, published by Mountain Peak Music. It’s available as a pdf + mp3, or a hard copy + CD. https://www.mountainpeakmusic.com/searc ... alph+Sauer

Each exercise is in a specific key. To help me play in different keys, I uploaded some of the exercises into Automatic Slow Downer: https://www.ronimusic.com/ . It’s available for Mac as an app in the Apple App store, as well as Windows and Android. Once I’ve uploaded an exercise, I use the pitch function to play in any key.

For added benefit, I used Notion to transcribe each exercise from the book, and then transposed each exercise into the 15 different keys (B = Cb, C# = Db, and F# = Gb; it makes a difference in my mind…). I can read the note on the page/iPad while playing. It becomes a visual and aural exercise, not just aural.

[timothy42b]

This may not apply to this student but it's something I've noticed singing in church choirs.
It has been common for older adults to join a choir when life changes give more time. They pretty much always sing out of tune. Covid has resulted in a lot of amateur singing online and some of it is truly cringeworthy.

Part of this may be hearing, but I think most of it is that they don't have the skill to hold a pitch steady, any more than they would have the skill to draw a straight line without a ruler. They are generally not able to match pitches with precision but it's not so much not hearing they're wrong, as it is not having the control to move the note where it needs to be.

Can he look at a tuner and keep the pitch reasonably steady?

[freeman]

as a tool to improve intonation a tuner is almost worse than useless. having one can be useful for reference or to settle an argument, but it won't improve your pitch. intonation must be trained, and adjustments have to made with your ears not your eyes, whether solo or in an ensemble.

i don't know the TC policy regarding advertisements, but i have nothing to disclose or divulge about sharing this link - https://tuneupsystems.com - the only interaction i've ever had with stephen colley was when i ordered his basic training system nearly 20yrs ago. it's a CD with electronically generated drones and major and minor scale harmonizations rendered with pure intonation, and a workbook of suggested exercises following 22(!) pages of instructional text.

he recommends starting with the last track on the CD, the "Introduction to Pure Intervals:" two simple sound waves that start in unison, then one slowly glisses up an octave. it shows how every interval, even the most dissonant ones, have a specific place where beating tones cease. then moving to drones, from the workbook:

It is crucial that each exercise in each key first be hummed... Humming centers vocal vibrations in the "mask" (sinuses behind the nose). The interaction of these vibrations with the Basic Training CD make identifying pitch and pitch discrepancy very, very easy and create the "groove" for pure intervals when moving to the instrument.

when you hum a note perfectly in tune against the drone your entire sinus cavity resonates in a way that feels similar to the way a DAW's stereo widener sounds. the effect is very pronounced, and at least one non-musician i know bought the book/CD based on how struck they were by the novelty.

as i wrote above, i am not a paid spokesperson for colley. it's a solid product and i can't overstate it's importance to my success in this industry.

[CalgaryTbone]

Similar to the Cello exercises in a previous post, there is a nice book by Verne Reynolds for two horns. It explores intervals with the moving part above or below, and sometimes with parallel motion. In treble clef, but easily played in whatever clef you want to use as long as you adjust the occasional accidental. Reynolds also has a version of the book for Brass Quintet. I haven't had the occasion to use that one, but have been told that it's very good too.

Jim Scott

[Doug Elliott]

I disagree with the opinion that tuners are useless.

SEEING it in tune while you play is also HEARING it in tune at the same time. And that reinforces the pitch perception of both ears to hear the same pitch. And helps to reinforce CORRECT pitch of notes that you may habitually play wrong, for example anything in 5th position or farther out that tends to be nebulous. And helps to identify and reinforce things like what a half step really sounds like (and feels like to your slide arm) between positions on different parts of the slide.

Sure, you need to hear and match, and a drone or ensemble is a necessary part of that, but there is definitely a place for a tuner to learn and hear equal temperament. Tuning intervals to a drone or in a group is NOT equal temperament, but most of the playing anybody does needs to be closer to equal temperament.

[robcat2075]

Here is my old post on the Cello Forum offering my Dotzauer collection:

Get your (new and improved) Dotzauer play-alongs here!

The download links still work.

The video that explains how to use MuseScore and how to use the MuseScore files was made for MuseScore V1, but most of it will still apply to the current MuseScore V3.

[robcat2075]

I find using drones in earbuds or earphones to be nearly useless. Most of the "self" sound ends up coming through bone conduction, which has a different speed of sound than what comes through air...

This very much. Whether it's drones, or IRT or computer play-alongs, the sound needs to be in the air, like it will be when a person plays in an ensemble.

The tiny speakers on a laptop are hopeless also. For $30 or $40 bucks one can get computer speakers with real bass and something like real sound in the air.

*Did you ever notice how odd it is, the way doctors pronounce some words? For example, they say TIN-i-tus, whereas we mortals say tin-I-tus.

Next time a doctor tells you TIN-i-tus, ask, "TIN-i-tus? And are they saying a-pen-DISS-i-tus now, too? And per-i-TON-i-tus?"

[brumpone]

*Did you ever notice how odd it is, the way doctors pronounce some words? For example, they say TIN-i-tus, whereas we mortals say tin-I-tus.

Next time a doctor tells you TIN-i-tus, ask, "TIN-i-tus? And are they saying a-pen-DISS-i-tus now, too? And per-i-TON-i-tus?"

Are these spelled differently in the US than the UK? Sort of like Aluminium/Aluminum? In the UK we spell those as appendicitis and peritonitis, both ending -itis which demands the emphasis on the second last syllable. I've always heard tinnitus with the stress on the first syllable, but it never came up in in the 15 days I've ever spent in the US!


Playing in tune: I've been using a Silent Brass for all my playing for 2 years, ever since I moved into my current flat (apartment ). I've no idea how I'd do playing with others now... even more since I damaged the socket for the mute jack after the amp fell off my music stand one time too many. Until I get round to soldering the broken joint I have to do my best with the whisper quiet sounds that escape the mute.

[robcat2075]

Next time a doctor tells you TIN-i-tus, ask, "TIN-i-tus? And are they saying a-pen-DISS-i-tus now, too? And per-i-TON-i-tus?"

Are these spelled differently in the US than the UK? Sort of like Aluminium/Aluminum? In the UK we spell those as appendicitis and peritonitis, both ending -itis which demands the emphasis on the second last syllable. I've always heard tinnitus with the stress on the first syllable, but it never came up in in the 15 days I've ever spent in the US!

AFAIK, that manufactured medical Latin is spelled the same everywhere. I wonder what they do with it in non-Latin alphabet languages like Russian or Arabic?

I notice that the "tinnitus" is an "itus" rather than an "itis". Maybe that is the premise for the pronunciation.

[BrianJohnston]

Re-reading this because I would like to contribute:

Anything intonation related that involves your eyes is wrong. To improve pitch on the trombone, you need the following:

• Know where each note's position is on the trombone
• Have a concept of relative pitch and understanding how a basic major/minor scale sounds and the relationships between notes/intervals
• Have a basic understanding of music theory (To understand the tendencies of the chord degrees)
• Slow practicing with a drone
• Playing in a section to get used to "rapid" adjustment tendencies

Use your ears, not your eyes.

[CalgaryTbone]

Play with the student a lot. Play scales in octaves and in fifths (either have one player start on the root and the other on the fifth, or two different major scales - ie: F major with C Major above it). Play easy duets. Get the student used to hearing nice octaves and open fifths & fourths before getting into chords, etc.

JS

[robcat2075]

I'm wondering if anyone has suggestions...

No shortage of suggestions here. What did you decide to do and what happened when you did?

[timothy42b]

Next time a doctor tells you TIN-i-tus, ask, "TIN-i-tus? And are they saying a-pen-DISS-i-tus now, too? And per-i-TON-i-tus?"

Remember, doctors think middle C is 256 Hz.