Simple Tounge gets tired early

[HunTromBoy]

First of all, sorry for my english.
So my problem is, my tounge gets tired early when i play an etude like kopprasch no.35. The begining is very good and when i reach the middle part of the etude, it's getting worst and worst, i cant move my tounge and it's stuck in the frontOr i play monotonous 16th notes.
My biggest weak point is the play 16th notes on the trombone my sound is very good, i'm flexible, i'm won the country competition xd but i can't play 16th notes on one note on the trombone for a long time and i know the most important thing is the air and i just have to move the tip of my tounge, i have to think like a just play a long note and i'm just cut the notes with my tounge but it's a very difficult thing for me, when i try to play with relaxed tounge, i can't controll my tounge, but when i play not relaxed tounge is always gets tired and stops and stuck in the front.
I never met a person with the same problem like me and me teacher don't know too what is the problem.

[robcat2075]

It's hard to hear what you are only describing.

Get out a cellphone and record a clip of this phenomenon and post it here.

[Burgerbob]

How does it feel to do away from the trombone? Just air and tongue?

[Doug Elliott]

Learn to double and triple tongue until it sounds like single, and then use it.
I pretty much have the same problem if I single tongue too much - so I don't single tongue.

[GabrielRice]

Learn to double and triple tongue until it sounds like single, and then use it.
I pretty much have the same problem if I single tongue too much - so I don't single tongue.

[HunTromBoy]

Learn to double and triple tongue until it sounds like single, and then use it.
I pretty much have the same problem if I single tongue too much - so I don't single tongue.

Can you give me any tip for this?

[harrisonreed]

Tongue is probably too low in your mouth. Trombonists like to think they need the largest open space inside their mouth for a big dark sound. This makes articulations very difficult, because you're tongue has to move a long way.

Move everything up and forward and try that. This will give you more efficiency with air, articulations, and will make the sound more compact.

Also, yes, double tonguing is much more efficient too.

Last thought, mouthpieces with a wide flat rim are harder to articulate on. Rounder, thinner rims are easier to articulate on.

[Doug Elliott]

I teach by Skype.

[Mr412]

The advantage to double-tonging nearly everything is that it eliminates the double-tonguing "on/off switch" to the extent that when you really do have to use it, it's already there. That and I think it helps me sometimes with legato playing. To a degree. Varying articulation supplements the changing of lyrics in ballads - which - as instrumentalists - we can't do. So, maybe not EVERYTHING double-tongued, but it's still a goodly idea.

So what do we use as practice aids in learning double-tonguing. Pretty much anything. It doesn't have to be "double-tonguing exercises" a la Arbans and such. In fact, that might be counter-productive b/c it's usually taught/learned wrongly.

[HunTromBoy]

It is possible to learn everything with double tounge and learn to sounds like simple tounge? In classical music? I have this problem when i play in 90 bpm too. For example i play the kopprasch no.35 etude in the beginning and everything is fine since the middle part and then everything is getting worst. Yes i try to put my tounge a little bit higher and just try to use the tip off my tounge, with a lot off air, but it's still the same. This is so random when my tounge "say" "okay hello i'm out... so maybe i'm overthinking this thing, but if i'm not thinking about this it's still bad.

[Burgerbob]

It is possible to learn everything with double tounge and learn to sounds like simple tounge? In classical music? I have this problem when i play in 90 bpm too. For example i play the kopprasch no.35 etude in the beginning and everything is fine since the middle part and then everything is getting worst. Yes i try to put my tounge a little bit higher and just try to use the tip off my tounge, with a lot off air, but it's still the same. This is so random when my tounge "say" "okay hello i'm out... so maybe i'm overthinking this thing, but if i'm not thinking about this it's still bad.

So, I'll diverge from Doug and Gabe. My problem (and probably not their problem, I imagine) with single tonguing was not a tongue problem, but an embouchure problem. I was blowing the aperture apart with every attack, which is tons of extra muscle effort for every note.

Try those same etudes with no tongue at all, or legato, keeping the aperture centered and small, then try to match the marcato single tongue to that.

[Doug Elliott]

Yes, absolutely. Tonguing problems are usually actually response problems.

But even with that, double and triple is extremely useful at lower speeds, and usually helps the single tongue too.

[greenjambone]

Yes, absolutely. Tonguing problems are usually actually response problems.

But even with that, double and triple is extremely useful at lower speeds, and usually helps the single tongue too.

I do this on gigs sometimes, just to keep "loose." I tend to single tongue a ton and when I notice I'm becoming a little slower, switching to a multiple tonguing helps.

[Mr412]

LOL! Forget all this well-intentioned Internet stuff and get the best professional instruction, in-person, one-on-one that resonates with you. That resonates with you. That resonates with you. And that doesn't necessarily mean the best mechanical, technical instruction. There's more to music than simply playing notes.

[Doug Elliott]

Not everyone has access to "the best professional instruction, in-person, one-on-one."

And there's more to good teaching than simply teaching notes. It does involve "the best mechanical, technical instruction" too, and many teachers are seriously lacking in that knowledge.

[JacobsianApostle]

The simple exercise of practicing just air and tongue away from the horn can be good. I’m a great doodler but nothing about single tonguing has come easily. For a while I practiced just blowing and tonguing (dooh-dooh-dooh/tooh-tooh-tooh) very slowly while focusing on the feeling of the tongue being pushed down by the stream of air like a sprinkler head - keeping the feeling of the tongue as “weak” as possible. Of course the tongue is a muscle that has to engage to make the articulations, but trying to just trick my brain into treating it like a limp piece of flesh was helpful for me. I did this well below my comfortable speed for a couple weeks every day before playing, just air and tongue, and it significantly improved the quality of my single tongue articulations and added ~10 clicks to my max 16th note speed.

The discipline, as usually but especially with tonguing, lies in doing the exercise as slowly as needed to be relaxed in the tongue. It can be really humbling when you keep turning the metronome down 5 clicks at a time and each time you find the tongue still tenses up, but the long way is the short way here. Some tension is needed to make a sound, but tension in the tongue can create a lot of problems real quick.

Also I agree with Doug and others who advocate for a well controlled double tongue. I’ve accepted that I won’t be able to single tongue crazy fast the way some do, but working on slowing down my doodle tongue was very liberating. Even in slow lyrical contexts I end up doodling parts of phrases when it feels natural. There’s no shame in double tonguing things that you think you ‘should be able to single tongue’ if you can make it sound the same. For me it made life much easier.

[timothy42b]

So, I'll diverge from Doug and Gabe. My problem (and probably not their problem, I imagine) with single tonguing was not a tongue problem, but an embouchure problem. I was blowing the aperture apart with every attack, which is tons of extra muscle effort for every note.

Try those same etudes with no tongue at all, or legato, keeping the aperture centered and small, then try to match the marcato single tongue to that.

I may be thinking in reverse here. But I've been struggling with an extremely frustrating response problem in the middle range for some months now. I have a thread about it somewhere I should update. It seems to me that response is related to getting the chops (and all that that includes - mouth resonance, air, but especially the motion) set correctly for the note. The test if I can tongue it hard cleanly. If I'm a little bit wrong i can sneak in but to tongue it I have to be exactly right.

[Tomingoode]

Not everyone has access to "the best professional instruction, in-person, one-on-one."

And there's more to good teaching than simply teaching notes. It does involve "the best mechanical, technical instruction" too, and many teachers are seriously lacking in that knowledge.

And if my experience is any measure whatsoever, Doug knows his Schitt. Technically and otherwise. Take a lesson or two or more if the budget allows with Doug, its worth the investment and then some.