Mahler 5,Bass trombone or 3rd tenor?

[stewbones43]

I have just received notification of the repertoire for the next year for our local amateur (community) orchestra and one programme raises a question so I am asking for help, please.
We are doing a concert which consists of Strauss's "Four Last Songs" and Mahler's "Symphony No. 5".
Having checked through the trombone and tuba parts of the Mahler, I have discovered that the trombone parts are labelled I, II and III, as opposed to tenor trombones 1 and 2 and bass trombone. The trombone III part has a range from low C# up to high A [ 8va basso to 8va alto] Also the tenor clef is used frequently throughout the symphony.

Is it common practice to play this on a bass or a Bb/F tenor-bass (as the Europeans might call it)?

Please excuse my ignorance but I have very little experience of playing Mahler.

Thanks,

Stewbones43

[WilliamLang]

should probably be a modern bass trombone in this day and age. there's historical precedent for a tenor-bass (or single valve bass) but the whole section should be on board for that decision.

[DougHulme]

Stewbones 43... Is it common practice to play this on a bass or a Bb/F tenor-bass (as the Europeans might call it)?

Do the Europenas call them tenor-bass? I thought it was the Japanese that had that (slightly annoying!) habit? I know its a pain if you do a search on ebay for bass trombone, you get loads of (overpriced by our market) Bb/F tenor trombones clogging up the search all from Japan. I have many friends on the (European) continent (as opposed to us Islanders!) and they never use the term 'Tenor/bass' or is it just me not noticing?

I'm clearly showing my middle aged status to complain about anything thats not perfect or like it used to be. Stewbones 43 will know what I mean when I say I am turning into 'Victor Meldrew' even though that statement will probably leave our American cousins guessing.

But back to topic I'd take my King Duo Gravis along for that gig you mention, if it were me.

Doug

[LeTromboniste]

Yes the German have a long tradition of calling wide bore Bb instrument "Tenorbass" or just "Bass" even before the advent of the F valve. It's more about the size and proportion of the instrument than about it having a valve. A straight Bb instrument can be a "Tenorbass" while another, smaller Bb with a valve is just a tenor.

Regarding Mahler, at that time he would have expected 3 of the typical medium-large to large bore tenors of the time, all with F attachment (he consistently writes in the trigger range even in the first part), possibly with the lowest part played on a somewhat larger instrument. For modern purposes, 2 large tenors and bass is normal and the "equivalent". Mahler always wrote only "Posaune" with the numbers, even when writing for 4 trombones. To my knowledge the only time he wrote "Bassposaune" is in the 6th symphony, where that part is added just in the last movement. There's reason to believe he intended there a "big" bass in F or Eb, which by then was common mostly in the military.

[CalgaryTbone]

Bass trombone would be the usual choice - the bigger, darker sound helps to balance the section sound with the tuba. Mahler's lower trombone parts do sometimes join the first 2 players up to high A's and B flats, but not often. Same in reverse for the first 2 parts - there are sometimes a few unison valve notes. In those moments in Mahler symphonies, I always think of the bass providing the depth of sound on those valve notes, while the tenors just some additional support, and likewise the tenors provide brilliance and clarity to the upper range notes while the bass is the supporting player there.

There are some "meaty" low passages in the 5th Symphony in the 3rd (Bass) trombone part. Playable on a tenor, but not really the right sound, in my opinion.

Jim Scott

[Burgerbob]

If there's only 3 parts? Bass for sure.

[Posaunus]

If there's only 3 parts? Bass for sure.

But for this piece (as well as in most orchestral works composed before the 1940s or so) a single-valve bass is sufficient (and would have been normal when originally performed).

[Burgerbob]

If there's only 3 parts? Bass for sure.

But for this piece (as well as in most orchestral works composed before the 1940s or so) a single-valve bass is sufficient (and would have been normal when originally performed).

A single bass is just a bass trombone, it won't sound or play massively differently. Almost any 3rd/bass trombonist I know would just use a double.

[Posaunus]

But for this piece (as well as in most orchestral works composed before the 1940s or so) a single-valve bass is sufficient (and would have been normal when originally performed).

A single bass is just a bass trombone, it won't sound or play massively differently. Almost any 3rd/bass trombonist I know would just use a double.

Of course one should bring whatever bass trombone he normally plays for this piece. (Definitely preferable to a large tenor trombone.) One valve or two - they should all sound similar. Stewbones indicated this will be with an amateur (community) orchestra. My guess is that he doesn't have a double-valve bass trombone to bring; I just wanted to reassure him that a second valve is definitely not required for this wonderful symphony. [Playing Mahler 5 was the highlight of my now fading orchestral career.]

[stewbones43]

Gentlemen, many thanks for your words of wisdom. It is as I expected.

I will try it out on my independent double trigger bass, but may use my Besson 409 (0.555in bore and 9in bell, single trigger) for some of the early rehearsals, it is lighter to hold and less taxing on my elderly body!
The 2 tenor players will be on 8H, 88H, YSL 682B-any 2 from the 3.

Cheers

Stewbones43

[Mikebmiller]

I am curious as to what community orchestra can play Mahler 5?

[stewbones43]

Simple answer- an adventurous one.

Seriously, I think an explanation is required.
Here in the UK we don't have "Community Orchestras" as such but we have "Amateur Orchestras" The American Community Orchestra seems to be a large ensemble with more players per part than is required in a professional orchestra, but a UK Amateur Orchestra would have the same number of players as a professional orchestra except a slightly reduced number of strings, especially in the more rural locations. This reduces problems of balance, dynamics and ensemble playing. The orchestra in question recently did a concert where the programme was Beethoven Egmont Overture, The Snowstorm by Sviridov and Tchaikovsky's Manfred Symphony and the orchestra numbered 61 players. Sometimes we have to invite extra players to cover extra parts and sometimes we have too many players on a particular instrument and so we share out the concerts (usually 4 or 5 concerts each year) I run the heavy brass section and I have 4 trombones and 2 tubas on the books to call on regularly and a list of others in case of emergency.

The planned programme for the next 18 months is

William Tell Overture, Rossini
Piano Concerto No. !, Beethoven
Romeo and Juliet Suites 1&2, Prokofiev

Tintagel, Bax
Violin Concerto No. 1, Bruch
Job, Vaughan Williams

Four Last Songs, Strauss
Symphony No. 5, Mahler

Nutcracker Suite, Tchaikovsky
Checkmate, Bliss
Spartacus, Khachaturian
Firebird, Stravinsky

There would also be 2"Classical" concerts with a smaller orchestra (no heavy brass)

We share the parts around once we know who is available for which concert and that way everyone gets the chance to play different parts, if they want to. All the 4 trombonists play tenor, 2 play bass, I am the only alto player and2 of them play tenor tuba.

All the amateur orchestras I have played in have all worked in the same way.

Cheers

Stewbones43

[BGuttman]

Your orchestra sounds like most of the orchestras I play with here in New England. Only difference is that not many of the trombone players can double tenor tuba -- probably the result of our not having a strong Brass Band culture. I never played in a group like LeoinFla, which looks like a concert band with strings attached.

In my orchestra, when we had a stable trombone section, we used to alternate parts as well. We had 3 classical concerts in a season and each of us would take a turn at each part. For Pops concerts we would divide up parts within the concert.

I would think within the context of a smaller orchestra like you describe the single valve bass like the Sovereign may be just the ticket.

[LeTromboniste]

The youth symphony I played in would regularly pair with the conductor's amateur orchestra (which was mostly formed of alumni of the youth symphony who pursued other careers than music and were past the maximum age (25) of the youth orchestra) for jubilee concerts. When I was there we did Mahler 2 with them, and then Mahler 3 five years later. They could hold their own. Especially the strings, horns and some of the woodwinds were quite solid. There are good amateur/community orchestras out there.