Vibrato in Vienna

[ethshri]

Hi everyone,

I’m hoping to start a discussion regarding the Viennese tradition of trombonists (and other brass players) abstaining from the use of vibrato. I’ve heard stories of Ian Bousfield being shunned by members of the Vienna Phil horn section because he used vibrato in a set of performances of Bolero. I’ve also heard that audition committee members will eliminate candidates based on their use of vibrato, even on solo pieces like the David.

I understand some believe that vibrato alters tone quality to its detriment but canceling its use altogether seems to unnecessarily deprive the listener of a powerfully expressive musical tool. It’s hard for me to imagine listening to my favorite vocalists/instrumentalists and allowing every aspect of their musicianship to influence mine except for their use of vibrato. Obviously I understand why you would generally want to steer clear of it in orchestral situations but for solo playing I don’t understand the thought process.

If anyone has any information or insights about where this tradition came from or how it’s developed into the dogmatic form it takes today I’d be fascinated to hear about it. I’m sure there are other parts of Europe where they adhere to a similar set of rules and I would love to hear about those too. Another question worth asking in connection with this is how the American tradition of a more liberal use of vibrato developed. Please have at it! Any and all information or speculation would be appreciated.

Cheers,
Ethan

[robcat2075]

Snubbed by the horn players? I presumed they did that to everyone.


Hmmm.

I'm not sure I've heard much vibrato in trombone solo passages in orchestral works.

In stuff that is an obvious nod to theatrical stylings, like the Bolero, yeah.


But the occasional trombone solo in the Ring, or that bit from Saint-Saens' Organ Symphony? Is anyone doing those with vibrato?


As I was looking for examples I happened upon this against-expectations case.

A solo from Rhapsody in Blue?... in a jazz band arrangement?... of course it will have vibrato, right?

But no, he does it straight-ish...

[Kbiggs]

There were several discussions on vibrato on the old TF. Lots of different opinions. There seems to be no “right” or “wrong” way to use vibrato, except to follow the direction of a good, experienced teacher.

My impression of Vienna is that it’s a very conservative place, musically. Things are done in a certain way—it’s a tradition. If you can copy/emulate the style and technique of your teacher in the tradition, then you have a chance to play.

Here in the US, and in some of the Western European countries (which have been subject to more of the “American infection” of musical style [and clothing, and consumption, and culture…blah, blah, blah…]), vibrato in classical music is much more common, especially in solos, and occasionally in solo passages in orchestra. There are exceptions, of course: I doubt anyone would use vibrato when playing the Tuba Mirum excerpt during an audition. Performance is different, of course: the conductor might actually ask for it.

It is funny, though, how differently vibrato is used amongst different instruments. Clarinets: classically never, jazz often. Strings: all the time, except in period instrument groups pre-Classical era. Horn players: VERY rarely. Trumpets: it’s all over the place. Some principal US trumpeters used vibrato all the time (Voisin and his pupils, David Fishtal (sp?), and others), which I find detracts from the music. Again—tradition. It’s an art form, so we often follow the footsteps of others.

I like the general approach of vibrato that some players of period instruments use for post-Renaissance music: it’s like an ornament, to be used occasionally to enhance a note or a series of notes. Never constant, but occasional, like a strong but pleasant spice.

Bear in mind that almost everything above is just my opinion. I’m sure there will be mush discussion and disagreement here…

[Pre59]

Re the Andy Martin solo, it may have been marked "quasi horn" ? But I would have preferred to hear a looser more old school version. There is a march to conformity in music generally, and don't get me started on quantised sounding big band phrasing..

[robcat2075]

...It is funny, though, how differently vibrato is used amongst different instruments.... Strings: all the time, except in period instrument groups pre-Classical era.

When I've watched cello teachers coaching students and talking about vibrato there's a phrase that keeps recurring... "to warm up the sound"

To warm up the sound. It certainly does that on a string instrument in a way that isn't the same on a wind instrument.

I've started to wonder... is this warming merely something we perceive or does the constant undulation of the pitch alter the sound output?

Maybe the constant change is preventing some high overtones from getting going or from being amplified by the body of the instrument?

[gregsundt]

I once heard a performance at a horn conference. Belgian horn player, descant horn, vibrato all the way. It was a shock at first, but very pleasant and effective. I use vibrato for trombone, and especially euph, solos. It does enhance the "singing" quality if it's not overdone. In a section, never.

[whitbey]

Do the violins in Vienna use vibrato?

[Posaunus]

Do the violins in Vienna use vibrato?

YES!

[rickfaulknernyc]

My impression of Vienna is that it’s a very conservative place, musically.

As far as I know, women are still not allowed in the orchestra (other than the harpist).

[ithinknot]

My impression of Vienna is that it’s a very conservative place, musically.

As far as I know, women are still not allowed in the orchestra (other than the harpist).

Nah, there's been a slow but steady intake over the last 20 years, and at some point they did go over to blind auditions. I mean, still the bare minimum and decades after most everyone else

[robcat2075]

I count 18 female names on the VPO roster not including the two female harpists.

https://www.wienerphilharmoniker.at/en/ ... mitglieder

Mostly violins. No brass.

[Posaunus]

My impression of Vienna is that it’s a very conservative place, musically.

As far as I know, women are still not allowed in the orchestra (other than the harpist).

This "news" is fake - at least a decade out of date. The Vienna Philharmonic is still among the most "conservative" in Europe, but they have been admitting female musicians for quite some time, currently including one of the three co-concertmasters, a flutist, a clarinetist, and a bassoonist. They are also gradually modernizing in other ways, including guest conductors and repertoire. The violins do indeed use vibrato! But they still insist on their Vienna horns (with pumpenvalven) and oboes. In any case, it's a delight to attend a Vienna Philharmonic concert in person.

[2bobone]

I became friends with two brother/members of the Vienna Philharmonic during a VP visit to The Kennedy Center back in the 80's. They both felt that the prohibition on female members in the orchestra was ridiculous and totally supported their inclusion. As to their use of vibrato : I had the pleasure of witnessing their recording of Humperdinck's "Hansel & Gretel" [Solti conducting] in the "Sophiensaal" in Vienna. From my vantage overlooking the stage, the entire violin section seemed bound together by an invisible force. Their bows were already in motion before touching the strings and the vibrato seemed to be emanating from one single hand ! Uncanny ! An interesting aside is that on the second day of the sessions I was shocked to see a completely new woodwind section ! They rotated the woodwinds in mid-recording ! Later, in Salzberg, I heard the dress rehearsal of a new opera by Luciano Berio with Loren Maazel conducting [from memory]. It was as difficult a modern piece as I'd ever heard and the orchestra threw it off with abandon ! That experience transformed my opinion of the VP as a stodgy ensemble.
The days of Helmut Wobisch [principal trumpet/Manager] showing up for rehearsal in his SS uniform are long gone, but the tinge of the orchestra's deep involvement in the Nazi Party remains. Despite a crushing performance schedule, their members filled every interim with performances I witnessed : A string trio in the castle in Salzberg, a performance of the "Vienna StreichOrchestra" managed by one of the brothers and a coffeehouse string quartet. Their lives are overflowing with music ! One thing that surprised me was their fondness for our "Lenny" [Leonard Bernstein]. They absolutely idolized him. Yeah ! The Vienna Philharmonic uses vibrato --- and lots of other tricks,too !

[Kbiggs]

Yes, of course the Vienna Phil strings use vibrato. My comments were directed to the use of vibrato in the trombones, per the OP.

The “conservative” comments are meant to describe the training Viennese musicians (and in other “Eastern” European countries) undergo regarding style. For example, excerpts and whole piece are learned in a particular way regarding style, dynamic, articulation, etc. It’s simply done this particular way, and it has been played this particular way for a long time. It’s the musical tradition and style that is conservative, not the choice of repertoire.

[rickfaulknernyc]

As far as I know, women are still not allowed in the orchestra (other than the harpist).

This "news" is fake - at least a decade out of date. The Vienna Philharmonic is still among the most "conservative" in Europe, but they have been admitting female musicians for quite some time, currently including one of the three co-concertmasters, a flutist, a clarinetist, and a bassoonist. They are also gradually modernizing in other ways, including guest conductors and repertoire. The violins do indeed use vibrato! But they still insist on their Vienna horns (with pumpenvalven) and oboes. In any case, it's a delight to attend a Vienna Philharmonic concert in person.

Good to know - guess I haven't been keeping up. I love the sound of those Vienna horns!

[rickfaulknernyc]

The “conservative” comments are meant to describe the training Viennese musicians (and in other “Eastern” European countries) undergo regarding style. For example, excerpts and whole piece are learned in a particular way regarding style, dynamic, articulation, etc. It’s simply done this particular way, and it has been played this particular way for a long time. It’s the musical tradition and style that is conservative, not the choice of repertoire.

I actually largely support that - it's what gives the orchestra its identity. And it also helps preserve a certain Viennese way of playing that is historically important.

[robcat2075]

The days of Helmut Wobisch [principal trumpet/Manager] showing up for rehearsal in his SS uniform are long gone, but the tinge of the orchestra's deep involvement in the Nazi Party remains.

From NY Times article on VPO report on Holocaust-related events. There may have been more than a uniform problem with Wobisch...

The summary discusses the “extreme case” of Helmut Wobisch, a trumpeter who became a Nazi in 1933 and joined the SS in 1934. He worked as a spy, producing intelligence evaluations and denunciations of musicians. He, along with Jerger and two other party members, was fired after the war, but he rejoined the orchestra in 1947 and became its executive director in 1953.

Wobisch’s nefarious activities “did not become known in the denazification process,” the report says, but he “tried to hide his Nazi traces, even using Jewish musicians like the well-known conductor Leonard Bernstein, who again denazified him by calling Wobisch ‘my dearest Nazi’ according to eyewitnesses — in retrospect a horrifying misinterpretation in Bernstein’s humanitarian position.”

That report is ostensibly available on the VPO website. This page may be links to portions of it...

The Vienna Philharmonic under National Socialism (1938 - 1945)


I recall reading a traveler's commentary on the years between the Anschluss and the war. He said that flying from Vienna to Berlin was like "landing on a different planet" with the open antisemitism gone. In Berlin, the antisemitism was official but not highly visible. In Vienna, the public and private institutions had enthusiastically taken up antisemitism far beyond anything the new Nazi government had enforced, with anti-Jewish posters and banners visible nearly everywhere.

So I guess they were into it.

[Kbiggs]

I actually largely support that - it's what gives the orchestra its identity. And it also helps preserve a certain Viennese way of playing that is historically important.

Exactly. And I love that sound.

[robcat2075]

There is one mention of vibrato on the VPO website.

The article contains several comparisons of Vienna-style v. International-style

https://www.wienerphilharmoniker.at/en/ ... -oboe/5395

...This is illustrated by the fact that the exceptional oboist from the English orchestra was not well received in Vienna, whereas our oboist, [Hans] Kamesch, who by all rights is considered one of the best in his profession, was particularly singled out in England as being "completely inadequate".

[robcat2075]

Is it true that they never use double horns (Bb-F etc.) in the VPO?

Watching this video, they all seem to be singles, and with that very odd valve mechanism they favor.

[Posaunus]

Is it true that they never use double horns (Bb-F etc.) in the VPO?

Nope - only single horns (Wiener Horn) with Pumpenvalven.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vienna_horn

https://www.vsl.co.at/en/Horn_in_F/Distinctive_Features

Their sound is unique. It's always a pleasure to attend a Vienna Philharmonic (or Vienna Symphony Orchestra) concert and experience them in person.

[Kbiggs]

They are a single Bb horn with an F crook. It’s a holdover from the early Romantic days when valves were first invented. At the time, players were still used to thinking of natural horn technique, and they played them as seven different natural horns due to the 7 different valve combinations. Of course, nowadays they play them as a chromatic instruments. I’m not sure, but I think the crook is now soldered in as part of the instrument, as opposed to being a crook that needs to be inserted by the player. Also, the leadpipe, mouthpiece, bell, throat with kranz, bore, etc. of Wiener hörner are quite different compared to modern horns.

Viennese style trombones are also quite different in construction. Generally smaller bore than most modern symphonic trombones, less expansion in the bell section and tuning slide crook (if TIB); otherwise TIS, or sometimes no tuning mechanism at hall (tuning in the right hand). They had smaller bell throats, and a large bell diameter with kranz. The slide was also quite different. Traditionally, the outer slide brace had only one side soldered, the side attached to the second leg. The brace attached to the first leg was free-floating. Some of them have no leadpipe, and water keys were a rarity until the early 20th century.

[robcat2075]

No aversion to vibrato in the VPO cello solo...