TromboneChat

Greetings fellow chatters of Trombone,

I write to you today in lieu of some, let’s say…interesting fashion choices I’ve observed Gen Z make over the past couple of auditions I’ve taken. Just the other day I saw a young man show up to an audition in just a sweater and khakis. There wasn’t a single button in site! No buttons! Now if God has taught me one thing it is to never pass judgement on my fellow man. However, this time I couldn’t help but wonder “who does this little youknowwhat think he is??”

The Gen Z media will have you believe that since the audition is “blind” you should “wear whatever you’re comfortable in.” I say shame on you. I cannot count how many lovely conversations I’ve had in musicians lounges waiting for the inevitable “the committee has decided to advance this candidate or that candidate”, that I simply wouldn’t have had had I not been wearing a button down and slacks! There’s a certain respect you earn with your attire in this business before you ever play a note. You never know who might have a gig ready for a handsome, put together trombonist. I mean, will this generation stop at nothing before they break down every barrier separating civil society from savagery?

I’m wondering what the hive thinks about attire for blind auditions. Am I crazy or should you hold on to some dignity behind that screen?

P.S. if someone could get me Steve Shires’ contact info I would really appreciate it. I’ve been working on a 3D printed valve with my nephew that I’d love to get his eyes on now that he’s making trombones again. Thanks.

I remember Bill Watrous playing without shoes with Woody Hermann...
And I am very happy when someone without buttons wins a competition.

Me too. We generally want a relaxed person, not too uptight. Don’t underdress, don’t overdress. Be highly individualistic in your playing of course, and let that show us who you are, but avoid too much focus on appearance.

Doesn't bother me, although If it were me I would dress nicely because if you win you will likely be meeting the committee, the conductor, your new section mates, and the personnel manager, and there's your first impression .

Having been on both sides of the screen for more years than I want to admit, I've seen all sorts of audition fashions.

In general, you might not want to wear a suit unless that's your thing and you're comfortable. A pair of "well maintained" khakis, a nice dress-type shirt, socks and shoes (not athletic) are more than fine. You're only likely to get "points off" from some if you go the ratty jeans, t-shirt, and flip-flops route. You also may raise some eyebrows and get a few chuckles in a tux or tails. (Yes, I've seen it) In general we're more focused on your playing than your fashion sense.

The troll is back. Great.

We are now worrying about what the blind will think of our sweatpants.

Lol. I work for a Fortune top 10 company (also more of an X-er than Millenial or Z).

Prior to pandemic, in office with button down shirts; mostly long sleeve.

In the days of WebEx meetings, I have seen directors and "officer of the company" level people in hoodies and 1/4 zip pullovers. I'm going to bet that Dry Clean Only is going to die from Covid-19.

Get over it and enjoy the conversations and playing,
Andy

Lobbing "shame" at someone for dressing comfortably and no "buttons"??

Sit down....

I agree with Harold that for the initial "BLIND" audition, dress comfortably, but maybe a bit better than "dinner with Grandma"!
DEFINITELY NO surfer/beachbum look!!!

IF you progress in the audition chain, then adjust your appearance accordingly.

Just my opinion, yeah I know!!, if you make it to the final, live sit with the section, try to find out what they will be wearing!!!

If you’re applying for a professional position, dress the part. Evening wear of course. Summer whites in pops season. Nothing less.

Of course, I’m entirely kidding.

You never get a second chance to make a first impression.

I'm in the fin tech industry. It's interesting to be in an industry that combines tech culture with the finance industries culture. I had a colleague who insisted he wouldn't hire anyone who didn't show up to an interview in business attire. He was the final say on hiring but all dev candidates he interviewed had been through an interview with me first. Keep in mind this is not a blind interview. I told him point blank that wouldn't fly for developers. I was completely unwilling to lose a talented dev in khakis in favor of an untalented one in a suit. BS talks and money (talent) walks. FWIW I'm in between millennials and gen x.

I'm reminded of advice given when I was taking animation classes...

Q: What should we wear to an interview? A suit and tie?
A: No! Do not wear a tie! Be casual!

In the valley of the hipsters, the tie is a fatal faux pas.

I think it depends on context. Audition for what? The pit orchestra? A jazz ensemble? Symphony? I think that would factor into what would be considered "proper attire". With that in mind, did the organizers of the audition make it clear what a dress code was, if any? If they didn't do that, then there's nothing to complain about because you didn't care enough to let anybody know.

However, I do agree that in general society has gotten very sloppy and casual in the way they dress. It's to the point where I see people walking around in public or at the airport wearing pajamas or yoga pants. But there's nothing I can do about that except to look in the mirror and see if I am dressed the way that I think is proper. For me to go out in public is a minimum of a collared shirt, belted pants, and walking/casual shoes. At work I wear a tie (ok, so a pink flamingo, 3 Stooge, or Looney Toon tie, but a tie none the less), slacks and a sport coat. When in doubt, over dress. A man can never be wrong in a coat and tie.

This is an age old discussion:

"I believe what really happens in history is this: the old man is always wrong; and the young people are always wrong about what is wrong with him. The practical form it takes is this: that, while the old man may stand by some stupid custom, the young man always attacks it with some theory that turns out to be equally stupid."
(G.K. Chesterton)

Things would be a lot more fun:





Yes, context is key. I often still prefer a long sleeve button up shirt. The sleeves also give me a one time ability to pause and use the visual of rolling up my sleeves to be more casual/hands on. Also a great stalling tactic for when people ask absolutely stupid questions and you have to answer in a non-stupid manner.

Cheers,
Andy

What about a sweater isn’t professional? I advanced in many auditions with my trusty army of sweaters, winning with my now retired “lucky” sweater, slacks, and loafers. If buttons were bonus points, I’d borrow my mothers “button button who’s got the buttons” shirt with hundreds of buttons on it and play wherever I pleased.

This being said, I recall an audition story from the NY Phil where a candidate showed up in jeans and a t shirt for the blind first round, to Phil Smith’s disgust. There is something to the fact of dressing to the level you want to be a part of. Business casual is never a bad look; slacks, buttoned shirt or sweater (or both) and a jacket if you’re comfortable. Real shoes as well.

When I started taking auditions, suit and tie was the proper audition attire. Screens were common but not universal in the first round of auditions. If you went on to an advanced round, you would be visible to the audition committee, so it made sense from a "making an impression" standpoint. Things have relaxed quite a bit, so you will seldom see any suits at a professional audition, but I would still tell students, etc. to show up looking like you're going to work in an office setting ("Casual Fridays"?). Avoid jeans and running shoes and look like you're interested in the job and not stopping in between picking up some groceries and pet food. I think it also helps your state of mind when you are playing - it's a more serious mindset.

My $.02.

Jim Scott

Kids these days........

Do you think the jury are all wearing suits? Some of them will just be wearing a dress shirt without a jacket. Others might even wear a polo shirt . Where is the world going....

In all seriousness though, of course it's never a bad idea to be at least a little bit dressed up, especially if your dressed down is t-shirt and jeans/shorts.

Most of the least well-dressed colleagues I've performed with during concerts when the dress code is concert blacks have been boomers and X, so not sure where the "oh these gen Z kids" thing comes from. I see people wearing black jeans or a black t-shirt under their jacket on stage all the time, and it's not usually the young ones.

CalgaryTbone wrote: ↑Wed Feb 09, 2022 1:28 pm Things have relaxed quite a bit, so you will seldom see any suits at a professional audition, but I would still tell students, etc. to show up looking like you're going to work in an office setting ("Casual Fridays"?). Avoid jeans and running shoes and look like you're interested in the job and not stopping in between picking up some groceries and pet food. I think it also helps your state of mind when you are playing - it's a more serious mindset.

My $.02.

Jim Scott

Agree 100%

The formal wear of each generation is the casual wear of the previous generation. The modern office suit was a relaxed version of the tailcoats that preceeded it. Although, I'm not sure where we go after hoodies.

sf105 wrote: ↑Wed Feb 09, 2022 3:47 pm The formal wear of each generation is the casual wear of the previous generation. The modern office suit was a relaxed version of the tailcoats that preceeded it. Although, I'm not sure where we go after hoodies.

I'm afraid to ask....

Steve Shires' email address is on the website for his horns.

OK boomer, a blind audition is a blind audition.

If my students ask me what to wear to an audition, I tell them to be presentable and comfortable. Make the best music, get the job.

I played in a community band where the director insisted on black pants, black socks, black shoes. Not navy, not dark brown.
At our first summer concert that year a young woman in the percussion section showed up in skin tight black leather pants.
Some of the other players had trouble concentrating.

I played the Flowers Duet with the community band with the director on euphonium. A young flutist music teacher conducted. Near as I could tell she had on a long dress and two shoes.
It helped that my bell goes to the left and blocked the view.

whitbey wrote: ↑Mon Mar 28, 2022 6:14 am I played the Flowers Duet with the community band with the director on euphonium. A young flutist music teacher conducted. Near as I could tell she had on a long dress and two shoes.
It helped that my bell goes to the left and blocked the view.

Im sure she found you distracting as well, but in a different way.

Do you have any idea how difficult it is for everyone but men to dress for concerts? There is no standardization, every gig is different, and it’s all about pleasing boomers, which is impossible. It’s about walking some invisible line between looking good but not too good.

Concert dress “rules” are classism, and they are usually about patriarchy as well.

Just let people be, for crying out loud.

I’m so sick of all the 1950s garbage on here. This is not a safe space for boomer male gaze stories. Go down to the lodge, buy a 50 cent beer, and do that crap there.

Yes, Kris. Yes.

well said Kris

Standard concert dress preceded the boomers by a considerable number of years if not generations.

“Classism”, meaning class distinction? Is that still the case I wonder? Here on the W Coast a far more compelling argument could be made for ethnic distinction, as classical music is supported by the Asian community, all ages.

How would you have an orchestra dress? All black? Like waiters? Business casual (khakis and polos)? Standard concert attire (black suit, white shirt, bow tie) may have to do until something better comes along, whatever that is.

Bach5G wrote: ↑Mon Mar 28, 2022 11:53 am

How would you have an orchestra dress? All black? Like waiters? Business casual (khakis and polos)? Standard concert attire (black suit, white shirt, bow tie) may have to do until something better comes along, whatever that is.

Los Angeles Philharmonic wears all black for concerts in Disney Hall.

Bach5G wrote: ↑Mon Mar 28, 2022 11:53 am Standard concert dress preceded the boomers by a considerable number of years if not generations.

“Classism”, meaning class distinction? Is that still the case I wonder? Here on the W Coast a far more compelling argument could be made for ethnic distinction, as classical music is supported by the Asian community, all ages.

How would you have an orchestra dress? All black? Like waiters? Business casual (khakis and polos)? Standard concert attire (black suit, white shirt, bow tie) may have to do until something better comes along, whatever that is.

Like waiters? HORRORS! Servants have been dressed in livery for centuries and tuxes and tails are a direct result of that. No uncouth low class (read: inexpensive) clothes allowed in the dining room with m'lord and lady. Oppression of the working class is alive and well and I think about it whenever I have to dress up like a Rockefeller to go to work.

Yes, I think all black is a start. This seems more and more common. Personally I'd be in favor of some kind of inexpensive machine washable jumpsuit but that's probably asking too much.

My opinion on the original topic and concert dress doesn't really matter though. I mostly posted because I wanted anyone else who felt alienated by that post above to know that they aren't alone, that someone is on their side, and that Trombone Chat as a community doesn't universally tolerate that type of content (although it does tolerate it far too much, in my opinion).

Kdanielsen wrote: ↑Mon Mar 28, 2022 1:18 pm

Yes, I think all black is a start. This seems more and more common. Personally I'd be in favor of some kind of inexpensive machine washable jumpsuit but that's probably asking too much.

i had a mixed quartet (trombone, clarinet, cello, piano) that wore black jumpsuits as our attire, including at Carnegie Hall. jumpsuits are the way to go- super comfortable and always have a choice of pockets for your spray bottle! hahaha

the whole debate seems surprising- I know I mostly run in contemporary and improvised music circles, but even when subbing with orchestras I can count on one hand the number of times I've been asked to wear a tux in recent years. It seems like all black is much more common with larger groups. just seems such a weird thing to get upset about.

A few groups here in LA have a 90% black rule. I like that one cause it gives some uniformity, but leaves clear space for colour and individual choices as well.


agreed with Kris on the gendered issues with clothing too. it seems like a never ending mine field of being given zero actual direction and then there being issues for stepping outside of invisible markers.

All black would work for me. It’s the difference of a bowtie. Awfully sombre though.

On the topic of concert dress, one of the coolest I ever saw was a concert of the London Sinfonietta. They wore various combinations of black, green, and purple, clearly unified by a designer.

That was in 1991. This is not a new conversation.

I'm OK with all black, but I would love to see the option of neckties and other accessories that bring a spot of color, or at least some visual interest in black/white/gray/silver. All black looks anonymous to me.

And another thought: I think the New York Philharmonic looks fantastic when the men are wearing tails and the women are wearing formal gowns. I realize this does not address the issues of gender specificity, but I think it looks more congruous than when men wear tails and women wear all black that inevitably looks more casual.

OP, were you beaten by someone in a sweater the day of your "best audition ever (NOT) -- CLICKBAIT!!!" ?

Just making sure.

FWIW, any outfit in the below video, which has been seen by more people than any orchestra concert in the history of the human species, should be fair game for an audition. Or performance. Especially the outfit at 1:18:40...

But also the smock worn by the bassist.

Best outfit is a polo shirt and tan khakis. Everybody can wear it, it’s inexpensive and easy to clean, looks good but not ostentatious and hella comfortable.

Matt K wrote: ↑Mon Mar 28, 2022 4:40 pm Best outfit is a polo shirt and tan khakis. Everybody can wear it, it’s inexpensive and easy to clean, looks good but not ostentatious and hella comfortable.

Thats my go to. I also teach class in that at two universities. Seems to be fine.

I used to like the gray slacks, blue blazer jacket, white shirt, and long tie. A lot of the groups (especially Jazz Bands) wore this.

Many Community Bands have adopted the Polo/Golf shirt (often with an embroidered or silkscreened image) and slacks (often black, but sometimes blue or khaki). Really nice on hot summer day concerts.

Given the rustic nature of my state, I wanted to have us wear bib overalls with black satin piping

Audition attire? Comfortable but not too casual (i.e. no sweatshirts and jeans). If you are not comfortable playing in a broadcloth shirt and slacks, practice in that attire until you are.

The first Artie Shaw tour I did, in 1997, was blue blazer with gray pants, and I had buy them just for that.
I haven't worn the blue blazer since, and maybe not the gray pants either.

Blue blazers are pretty good business casual plus wear. I obviously haven’t been to a physical event in awhile but a blue blazer, blue button up and tan khakis (I’m a fan if you couldn’t tell!) work for just about any business function short of really fancy events which I’ve never been invited to, thank goodness.