TromboneChat

I am currently playing an intermediate trombone but casting a wistful eye to the possibility of stepping up to a full bore instrument some time in the future(finance permitting). In the meantime I am doing a bit of research! I have read specs and reviews of quite a few makes plus the constant discussion about the Conn 88 vs Bach 42 sound. The above German style trombones  caught my attention as they seemingly are not pure German instruments but basically American with a German flavour which seems interesting and might produce a very fascinating sound. There are enthusiastic and favourable reviews about both the Mestersinger and the Bolero. How do they compare? Are they similar? What sound camp do they fall into (Conn or Bach) or are they in their own camp? I'm sure I saw a thread that suggested the Bolero was more of a Bach 42 sound. Any comments would be welcome.

I have never played both, but I can tell you that both are going to be much more expensive than the American counterparts you mentioned. There is less demand for German-style trombone, and thus higher price. They also tend to be made from gold brass, which adds to the price tag.

Any particular reason for wanting a German-style horn? What is your meaning of “very fascinating” sound?

Et our profile states your playing in a British brass band?   Buy a conn 88h

I've only played Meistersinger but I liked it very much. They consulted Carl Lenthe at Indiana University in creating that one. He is an American trombonist but spent most of his orchestra career in Germany, with Bavarian State Opera and Bamberg Symphony. As far as I know he played Conn 8H most of the time, sometimes 88H (at least that was the case in lessons at IU in early 2000s). So naturally Meistersinger, I think, would have more of the Conn side of characteristics. Never have seen a K&H Bolero so cannot speak about how it compares.

I haven't played either instrument, but I have a friend who bought a bolero last year and has decided after a time he doesn't really like it. (one of his groups is also a brass band). But really you will need to try both, and some more, before buying, and don't just rely on reviews if you can help it. Also I guess availability will depend on your location. 
Stephen

Quote from: sirisobhakya on Jan 25, 2018, 06:35AMI have never played both, but I can tell you that both are going to be much more expensive than the American counterparts you mentioned.
Although I don't have any experience with those specific trombones, I just wanted to say that both trombones are cheaper than a comparable Bach 42. At least, they are in the Netherlands (and probably everywhere in Europe).

I have heard some good things about those trombones and I've experienced that the quality of both brands is really high. The best advice (as always): try to find a place where you can play them both. Good luck!

You could get one on sale or return from Thomann.de. They have a 30 trial period, so if you don't like it, send it back. I've bought two Bart van Lier's this way. The Kuhnl+Hoyer build quality is superb as well.

The B&S horns are very nicely built but for me also have a very unique sound. Some people sound great on them, some not. What I do find is that they are a little less flexible within this sound and therefore would not recommened for someone still developing (usless you already have a very firm idea and everything works.)
The Boleros are fine instruments and have been used by plenty of players as in orchestral and solo situations. Soundwise it does lean towards a 42. Funnily enough I find the Kühnl and Hoyer ,,547" , the intermediate model a better match to my playing. It is a very easy to play horn and recreates the 42 with nickel slide set up that many players use.

Just played that Meistersinger at NAMM. Really great trombone, one of the best at the show. Compared to the K&H I couldn't tell you. It's definitely not exactly like anything American, with all the gold brass and nickel.

Quote from: Burgerbob on Jan 26, 2018, 12:21AM It's definitely not exactly like anything American, with all the gold brass and nickel.

My latest K+H has a "bronze" outer slide, is that comparatively rare?

Quote from: Pre59 on Jan 26, 2018, 01:41AMMy latest K+H has a "bronze" outer slide, is that comparatively rare?

It may have been bronze... I'm not really up to determining that on the spot!

Quote from: Burgerbob on Jan 26, 2018, 10:50AMIt may have been bronze... I'm not really up to determining that on the spot!

I meant generally, Is a bronze outer slide rare?

Quote from: sirisobhakya on Jan 25, 2018, 06:35AMThere is less demand for German-style trombone, and thus higher price.

That’s a rather unorthodox perspective on classical economic theory.

Quote from: sirisobhakya on Jan 25, 2018, 06:35AM

There is less demand for German-style trombone, and thus higher price. They also tend to be made from gold brass, which adds to the price tag.


A reference to diminishing economies of scale for manufacturing less popular instruments?

Quote from: Pre59 on Jan 26, 2018, 11:34AMA reference to diminishing economies of scale for manufacturing less popular instruments?

No doubt.  Just an odd way to phrase it.  Imagine how expensive they’d be if absolutely nobody wanted one.

I've been able to play both and I have some opinions about this topic...

Ok, so firstly I understand wanting to go German for the flavor. However, firstly you need to think about the kind of playing you'll do. I see you're in a brass band, so you'll want something to blend well. "Don't all trombones blend well with each other?" Not necessarily. If you have a more bright or too different of a style of instrument than your section mates, you could run into blend problems.

My first question is this. Which K&H Bolero are you looking at? They have different valves and options and bell alloys and the list goes on. I have played the Thayer Valve Bolero model and I think it's a pretty good horn. Plays close to my 42 (I am in the 42 camp) but there's something about it that makes it play too bright. The bell was a very thing red brass bell. It was an 8.5 bell, but it broke up the louder I got. The other Bolero models have a slightly larger bell I think. The rep made a big deal about that. The modular aspect is nice, but there isn't a yellow bell option to my knowledge. Over all, not a bad horn, but since it kinda copies the 42 in some respects. I would put it in that "sound camp."

The B&S Meistersinger is a monster horn. 9 inch bells on tenors are VERY German. I have an 1860's Penzel in... a kind of shape... Anyway, that thing has a 9.25 incher and it is a big sound that comes out of it. As for this specific B&S, it plays pretty much like a modern German tenor. It's really in it's own "camp" to use your terminology. The German sound concept as a whole is very different from what the American concept is. Since it is so German I was surprised to see it not have a dual bore slide. It is almost exclusively gold brass, which means it's gonna be brighter sounding and duller feeling (that's what I find when the slide is made of gold brass anyway...) Its a HUGE sound. Just bright. Unless you're in a section playing on German horns, this may not be the best way to go.

It's hard to give you more advice than that since I don't know your specific needs or what "sound camp" you want to fall into.

Quote from: Pre59 on Jan 26, 2018, 11:04AMI meant generally, Is a bronze outer slide rare?

Pretty much.  Sometimes Red Brass (90% Copper, balance Zinc) is referred to as "bronze" or "commercial bronze" even though true bronze is copper and tin.

Most of the outer slide tubes I own are either yellow brass or nickel silver.

Quote from: BGuttman on Jan 26, 2018, 08:51PM
Most of the outer slide tubes I own are either yellow brass or nickel silver.


The same here, until I recently bought a new K+H 480/88". Which apart from a slightly bigger bell (195mm rather than 180mm) and a "bronze" outer slide is identical to my standard 480/88" but plays in a very different manner. It has softer slots and warmer sound even in 1st position. I need to get some measuring tools to confirm the spec's.

Thank you everyone for your comments. Big takeaway comment as always is try them out - play for yourself and see.

Lots more detail about both trombones which appreciated. Why German? Listened to some clips of German orchestras and players and liked the sound but also liked the idea of a German “flavour” on an American style horn so it would fit into the more mainstream settings.

As for which sound I want to produce, I am genuinely not sure. In many ways I like both sounds (Conn and Bach). I sort of lean towards the clear ringing Bach sound, it sounds more solid and full than the Conn sound. Then I hear an attractive interpretation on a Conn and think maybe that is the way. Also I can find recordings from both “camps” where I don’t like the sound and am getting fairly convinced that a large part of the sound is the player not the instrument. Within each camp there is quite a lot of variation aIthough perhaps more within the Conn camp as it is a more flexible sound. It would be really fascinating to get Joe Alessi and Christian Lindberg to swap trombones at a big forum and then both play the same couple of pieces on each other’s instruments and put the experiment on YouTube. How different would their sounds be on another instrument?

Again I guess the solution is to play as many instruments from both styles. Sorry I’m probably moving the discussion on from my original starting point and I have noticed this is sometimes disapproved of! Still it seemed a natural progression and was prompted by one or two comments that people made.

On the pricing front the cost of the German horns in question new seem to be comparable in the UK with Conn/Yamaha, perhaps slightly more but I doubt if there are as many second hand instruments around.

The question of fitting into a section is also a good one to think about. Would the scary band conductor object to a German timbre that stuck out very obviously from the rest of the section? Probably!

Thanks once again for taking the time to make your comments.

Just for you to know: I've seen György Gyivicsán is now playing a B und S MS 14!
That should be the ultimate recommendation for this instrument. Just look at youtube for Szeged Trombone Ensemble.
He is the guy with the silver white hair playing the 1st trombone. Awesome.

(I think he was on Shires before, but i am not quite sure.)

Hi

If you are looking at German hybrid style trombones,i.e. not traditional Konzertposaune... I'd have to say that one of the nicest I've ever tried was the Kromat CL 139. I preferred it to the B&S and Kühnl's I've tried. Lätzsch is also making a great hybrid trombone. These are more expensive I grant you. But the Kromat is a super stable and well made instrument.

Here's a video for you, a whole section of Meistersingers. It is the promotional video for Phil Blech Wien, the guys in the Vienna Phil. I have two of their albums, absolutely terrific performances demonstrating a different take on what I always hear where I live (USA). Absolutely gorgeous sound.

https://youtu.be/fQY8jWPE5Fs

-Scott Moore

And ditto on Trombone Szeged. What a great group!

And ditto on Trombone Szeged. What a great group!